Patriotic music at Mass

[FAB]

“This is My Song” seems neutral and innocuous enough, but the tune comes from Jean Sibelius’ tone poem “Finlandia.” It was written with the intention of becoming Finland’s national anthem (it hasn’t yet, but many would like it to be) and is considered an important patriotic song in Finland about their fight against Russia. A very nice melody, but not entirely a neutral one.

There are few songs in the hymnal that I dislike, this happens to be one of the them. It’s like drinking warm water. It’s innoucous enough, I love my country but yours is OK to.
The melody to be is like fingernails on a chalkboard.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Are you serious? You really think there’s nothing wrong with singing ELVIS in church?!?!?

That is not what I said. What I said was I see nothing wrong with the Battle Hymn of the Republic being sang for the recessional at Mass.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

We have, you just don’t want to agree.

You have yet to give anything to agree to. You have not pointed to one line that is contrary to scripture or Church teaching. YOu have not shown anythng that says Every Hymn sang must be a reflections of the Gospel Reading of the Day. I fyou don’t like it that fine But that does not make it inappropriate.

 

[benedictgal]

You have yet to give anything to agree to. You have not pointed to one line that is contrary to scripture or Church teaching. YOu have not shown anythng that says Every Hymn sang must be a reflections of the Gospel Reading of the Day. I fyou don’t like it that fine But that does not make it inappropriate.

The revised GIRM, which is now in force, states that the music must be liturgical chant that is best suited for the day. As a priest borrowed my copy, I do not have it in hand and will have to wait until it comes back to me.

 

[DL82]

I remember once attending a Rememberance Day Mass (11th Nov or the nearest Sunday here in the UK) and the entrance hymn was “I vow to thee my country”. It struck me as the Catholic Church trying too hard to show its’ patriotic credentials, as I had attended Church of England services for 6 years prior to my conversion, and had never heard this hymn sung, despite the C of E being the ‘established’ National church. I’m still uncomfortable with the lyrics (“I vow to thee my country, all earthly things above/ entire and whole and perfect the service of my love/ the love that asks no questions the love that stands the test…”)

 

[FAB]

You have yet to give anything to agree to. You have not pointed to one line that is contrary to scripture or Church teaching. YOu have not shown anythng that says Every Hymn sang must be a reflections of the Gospel Reading of the Day. I fyou don’t like it that fine But that does not make it inappropriate.

As stated before, scriptural reference does not alone make it an appropriate song.
The truth is that it leans to protestant teaching, as well as stated before , a war song.
Leave it to the Marine Corps choir to sing at their performances, they are the only one I’ve heard that does the song justice and leave it out of the Catholic liturgy of the mass.
As bentical pointed out, it also doesn’t fit in the instructions of the new GIRM. although this is a slight revision from the previous one that stated the same in different wording.

 

[benedictgal]

Here is the revised section of the GIRM:

1. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Gradual Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduate Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

The key phrase here is “suited to the sacred action”. Patriotic music is, well, patriotic music and is suited to celebrating civic and national pride. The sacred action for Catholics is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[pnewton]

The books on liturgy go beyond just the GIRM. So this is just not opinion it is my training not only as a liturgist but as a Deacon.
From what I took,you tried to twist the GIRM to include seasonal, not the church season but secular holidays as well which is not what it means.

No, I did not mean that. I was referring to the litugical season, as opposed to music that must be about the Gospel reading. FYI- credentials in lieu of documentation is still opinion. It might be an educated opinion, but as we know, not all educated opinions agree. I will stick with what the USCCB puts out and my own chain of command says, thank you very much.

I have a question to all. Would every one object equally to Ave Maria for Mother’s Day. If not, then isn’t it the song itself and not the season?

 

[quiet52]

Here is the revised section of the GIRM:

Quote:
48. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Gradual Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduate Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

Benedictgal, what does the revised GIRM say about the closing song?

 

[Bbigam]

Benedictgal, what does the revised GIRM say about the closing song?

I may be wrong, but I don’t think the GIRM ever references the closing song, as it’s not ever been technically part of the Mass.
I would think the same general principles would apply to the closing song as to the rest of the chant/hymnody, but I won’t pretend to have a source for that.

 

[Digitonomy]

Here is the revised section of the GIRM:

(4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

That is an interesting excerpt from the GIRM; it indicates that the entrance chant need not have any relation to the sacred action, so long as it is suited to the day or the time of year.

 

[TheMc]

That is an interesting excerpt from the GIRM; it indicates that the entrance chant need not have any relation to the sacred action, so long as it is suited to the day or the time of year.

I see nothing wrong with that. The proper introit many days seems to have nothing to do with a procession, but everything to do with the season.

 

[pnewton]

Ultimately, despite all our own opinions and interpretations of the GIRM, we ultimately should yield to obedience to our priest and his opinion and our bishop and his guidelines. It is they who have the authority to apply the interpretation they see to any given diocese.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Being an American monarchist who believes his own country’s Revolution was unjustified and winces when people quote the Declaration of Independence, I think I’m safe from any accusations of putting nation in place of God when I say that I like having nationally themed hymns on occasion.

There are few songs in the hymnal that I dislike, this happens to be one of the them. It’s like drinking warm water. It’s innoucous enough, I love my country but yours is OK to.
The melody to be is like fingernails on a chalkboard.

That set of words are kind of silly, yes, but the “Finlandia” tune itself is beautiful.

I remember once attending a Rememberance Day Mass (11th Nov or the nearest Sunday here in the UK) and the entrance hymn was “I vow to thee my country”. It struck me as the Catholic Church trying too hard to show its’ patriotic credentials, as I had attended Church of England services for 6 years prior to my conversion, and had never heard this hymn sung, despite the C of E being the ‘established’ National church. I’m still uncomfortable with the lyrics (“I vow to thee my country, all earthly things above/ entire and whole and perfect the service of my love/ the love that asks no questions the love that stands the test…”)

I don’t see reason to be uncomfortable about it, especially if you notice the last verse:
*
And there’s another country, I’ve heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace. *

Our country may be “above all earthly things”, but it is without doubt below heavenly things.

 

[benedictgal]

No, I did not mean that. I was referring to the litugical season, as opposed to music that must be about the Gospel reading. FYI- credentials in lieu of documentation is still opinion. It might be an educated opinion, but as we know, not all educated opinions agree. I will stick with what the USCCB puts out and my own chain of command says, thank you very much.

I have a question to all. Would every one object equally to Ave Maria for Mother’s Day. If not, then isn’t it the song itself and not the season?

May, however, is the month when the Church traditionally honors the Blessed Virgin Mary, thus, any day, let alone, Sunday in May, would be an appropriate time for the Ave Maria to be chanted. Furthermore, many parishes have a May Crowning and, some have even had it on Mother’s Day.

Now, the word “day” in the GIRM specifies to the liturgical day, not a secular one (like Independence Day).

 

[Digitonomy]

Now, the word “day” in the GIRM specifies to the liturgical day, not a secular one (like Independence Day).

Hmm… that is an interesting suggestion. I’m not sure it’s entirely true.

If “day” must refer only to the liturgical day, then it would be wrong to use a memorial hymn upon the death of the Holy Father, unless the day had been so declared in the brief hours after his passing.

(I’m trying to remember what hymns were used back in 2005, but my head was swimming a bit during that mass).

 

[pnewton]

May, however, is the month when the Church traditionally honors the Blessed Virgin Mary, thus, any day, let alone, Sunday in May, would be an appropriate time for the Ave Maria to be chanted. Furthermore, many parishes have a May Crowning and, some have even had it on Mother’s Day.

Yes, but the liturgical season is Easter and none of the Gospel readings pertain to Mary. My point is that music can be separate from the liturgical season and the Gospel. Honoring Mary in May is a practice I like, but it is no where on the liturgical calendar. Likewise, I may use songs associated with thankfulness at Thanksgiving.

How about using Faith of Our Fathers on Father’s Day during Ordinary Time? I have like this practice, as I do the others, but they do show that the music is not always directly related to the Gospel as early claimed, but never supported by* documentation*.

 

[benedictgal]

Hmm… that is an interesting suggestion. I’m not sure it’s entirely true.

If “day” must refer only to the liturgical day, then it would be wrong to use a memorial hymn upon the death of the Holy Father, unless the day had been so declared in the brief hours after his passing.

(I’m trying to remember what hymns were used back in 2005, but my head was swimming a bit during that mass).

But, even a hymn used when the John Paul II died would count, somewhat, as liturgically correct since it has some sacredness (we assume) to it. Patriotic hymns are not sacred music insofar as the liturgy is concerned.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, but the liturgical season is Easter and none of the Gospel readings pertain to Mary. My point is that music can be separate from the liturgical season and the Gospel. Honoring Mary in May is a practice I like, but it is no where on the liturgical calendar. Likewise, I may use songs associated with thankfulness at Thanksgiving.

How about using Faith of Our Fathers on Father’s Day during Ordinary Time? I have like this practice, as I do the others, but they do show that the music is not always directly related to the Gospel as early claimed, but never supported by* documentation*.

Then, during Easter, you chant the Regina Caeli, as this has been the traditional recessional hymn during the Easter season at the Papal Masses.

 

[Digitonomy]

But, even a hymn used when the John Paul II died would count, somewhat, as liturgically correct since it has some sacredness (we assume) to it. Patriotic hymns are not sacred music insofar as the liturgy is concerned.

Well now you’re changing your argument. I think this was a better tack to take from the start, that most patriotic music does not qualify as a liturgical chant.

However, you were just claiming that GIRM 48(4) prohibits all music not suited to the sacred action, [liturgical] day, or [liturgical] time of year. If your interpretation is true, a Lenten hymn could be acceptable during a St Patrick’s mass, or vice versa. But a hymn in memory of John Paul would not be appropriate to that specific mass(sacred action), nor to the liturgical day or time of year.

I would take a contrary view, that 48(4) is not intended to be read with [liturgical] in front of day and time of year.