Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity

[simplynoone]

WOW. No wonder. This is a mess to sort out.

I will respond to the rest of the post tomorrow… I did want to say that this is not a mess for you or anyone else to sort through. As I said, I grabbed hold of the promise made in Proverbs 2: 1-7 and the confusion, now that I have quit leaning to the MANY explanations of man, is gone. I am quite clear on where the Voice I heard rests… the Tanakh. Do you not believe that God is able to give understanding better than man? The mess was made by man’s doing… it was cleared up by the mouth of God.

 

[ralphinal]

I will respond to the rest of the post tomorrow… I did want to say that this is not a mess for you or anyone else to sort through. As I said, I grabbed hold of the promise made in Proverbs 2: 1-7 and the confusion, now that I have quit leaning to the MANY explanations of man, is gone. I am quite clear on where the Voice I heard rests… the Tanakh. Do you not believe that God is able to give understanding better than man? The mess was made by man’s doing… it was cleared up by the mouth of God.

You are 100% correct that the mess was made by man. However, that large assortment of beliefs may have slanted the way you see Scripture.

Only God could have cleared that up.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Seriously, I think a few of us have agreed to discuss this in a civil manner. I did not say that Abraham practiced Islam… it is clear he did not. Paul was a Jew, yes… but Paul was a hellenistic Jew and this is evident in his teachings.

Whats the point?

It is also clear that he DID persecute other Jews, so why you are arguing that, I am unsure. I am not giving conspiracy theories… go back to page 1… I have done more than you are doing… i have used Scripture to support what I am saying.

Okay, maybe he did persecute other Jews, he persecuted other Jewish sects I am aware of that as well. But it is also a historical fact he mainly persecuted Christians. Yes, he captured the followers of Jesus Christ. The closest deciples of Jesus feared this man. This is ALL history, but youre ignoring it to fit your personal believes. Like I said, the vast majority of Jews know Jesus is responsible for Christianity and regard Him as blasphemous. Which I can understand if youre a jew and not Christian, but saying Jesus survived the crucifixion, didnt get pierced, escaped, Paul created Christianity or he corrupted is just conspiracy theories. Nobody can take you serious if you believe this nonsense. This is why Muslims cant give us a legitimate debate, because our history refutes their lies.

By the way… this is me discussing on this thread… not Ben. So I am unsure as to why you say YOU and BEN. Again, I have clearly laid out the contradictions with Scriptures… so either address them or just admit that you are in ignorance.

These so called contradictions have been adressed before. Paul didnt go against the law of God, but he realized that Jesus fulfilled those laws on the Cross. So no, we dont have to be circumsized in order to be Gods chosen people. Time has 3 elements: Past, Present, and Future…knowing that God is not in bond with time, it makes it impossible for the Author of the Universe to “change” His laws, therfore Paul didn`t change any laws, Jesus just fullfilled them.

I disagree with you on the last part. God disagrees with as well. I have shown proof in the Scriptures for this… let’s see your proof since even the church claims its foundation in the Tanakh. (by the way… use the foundation to support your claims… since that is what Catholicism piggy backs on).

You showed us laws that were only valid thousands years ago. Time has passed, Jesus the God of Israel has fullfilled those laws. Thus making His Church that fullfillment of Jewdism.

. “In the past God spoke to our ancestors at many different times and in many different ways through the prophets. In these last days He has spoken to us through His Son. God made His Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe. His Son is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of God’s being. He holds everything together through His powerful words. After He had cleansed people from their sins,He received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.”

 

[simplynoone]

Okay… in light of the latest posts, I am going to try to ADDRESS all these things and get us back on topic without replying to each and every comment; considering there is nothing being brought here as of yet to show me wrong scripturally. In fact, may I be so bold as to say that you will be hard pressed to do such considering Paul IS contradicting the Word of God. It is an “end game, winner is not Paul supporter” situation here (concerning the title of the thread)… I am just trying to help you all come to grips with it… whilst allowing for you to show me as being wrong.

1. Establishing what IS perfect (meaning, it needs not be improved upon):

Deut 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psa 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler(shield) to all those that trust in him.

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The MAJOR misconception, again, being made by you all here is that you are under the Laws that were given TO THE JEWISH because of THEIR covenant with God. This had NOTHING to do with the Gentiles. Here were the options given to the Gentiles.

To be a righteous Gentile before God:
Eccl 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

The commands given by God to the Jewish for the Gentiles are currently known as the Noahide Laws. Quick overview is as follows:

1. No Idolatry
2. No blasphemy
3. Do not murder
4. Do not steal
5. Do not engage in sexual promiscuity (adultery, incest, bestiality, etc)
6. Do not eat living animals
7. Requirement to have Just Laws

Geesh!! Common Sense stuff, right guys? Nothing to freak out over.

Now, should a Gentile want to take part in the covenant with God and His People for whatever reason has been laid on their heart, then they are subjecting their own selves to the Laws of the covenant and they must abide therein to keep with THOSE Laws. Isaiah 56 speaks of this.

You are freaking out because PAUL put you under the weight of the Laws given to the JEWISH… not the Gentiles!!! He deceived you. Motive? Simple… Corruption of the covenant between the Chosen People and God. He could not stop the enlightenment that Jesus had brought to the covenant (which was to bring THEM… the Jewish… out from under the thumb of those who were benefiting by making the Laws more burdensome for the People); so instead, he decided to benefit of the ignorance of the Gentiles.

Anyone who is to take part in the covenant between God and the Chosen People must comply with the Laws that He laid out… Paul said NO, you do not!

Exo 31:13-15
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

The above was between Israel and God… not the Gentiles and God.

Paul, speaking to the Gentiles makes it appear as though this was a burden to them when it WAS NOT!!!

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Why even say this to the Gentiles unless to make them feel like the Jewish saw them as lesser people… therefore driving a wedge between the Jewish and the Gentiles.

Exo 29:9
And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest’s office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.

Num 25:13
And he(Aaron the Levite) shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Heb 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(Continued in next post)

 

[simplynoone]

Here Paul is trying to make changes again and saying it is for the benefit of the Gentiles… and it is your ignorance that allows for the deception to take place.

Psalm 110: 4 says,
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

This did not negate what the LORD said about the Levites would serve continually as the priests of the covenant between Israel and Himself. This meant that the Jewish would serve as the priests between the Gentiles and God… offerings of Peace were on order here; not sacrificial offerings. Melchisedek was the king of Salem that gave peace offerings of bread and wine to Abraham and blessed him in the name of God. Found in Genesis 14.

Circumcision?

Gen 17:10-14
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Lev 12:3
And in the eighth day the flesh of his(all male babies) foreskin shall be circumcised.

The above were commands to the Jewish concerning their covenant with God… nothing, again, to do with the Gentiles… IF THE Gentiles wanted to be a part of the covenant with God and His People, then they MUST ABIDE by the Laws He laid out.

But again, Paul uses the ignorance of the Gentiles to corrupt what God had laid out.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

But to God it did matter. It did NOT mean that the Gentiles were NOT important to God… it was because they WERE important that He even made this covenant with Israel. But the Law of God to the Jewish concerning the covenant is that circumcision is a MUST. Period! If a Gentile does not want to be circumcised… fine… it is not a requirement for them as the covenant is between the Jewish and God.

God said:
Deut 4:1-2
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Eccl 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For the Gentiles, it is the Noahide Laws… which I have outlined for you… common sense stuff.

Jesus confirms this in Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus even says… TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS… have heaven and earth passed? NO! Therefore WHOSOEVER SHALL TEACH MAN TO BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (here on earth according to Jesus, by the way).

Who taught man to break one these least commandments??

paul is even sometimes honest about his deceptive nature…

2 Cor 11:17
That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

And Paul describes all Christians who have adopted his new religion which is based on discarding God’s laws and worshipping a man called Jesus:

2 Cor 11:1
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

1 Tim 2:5-7
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

But Paul again is caught in his own web. Note also that Jesus, according to Paul is not God but a man. If the man Christ Jesus, gave himself as a ransom for all men, then nobody was saved. The OT shows his claim to be a lie.

Psa 49:7-8
None of them(no man) can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:

I could go on… but how it could not be clear by now is beyond me. How do you argue with what is so clear?

 

[ralphinal]

I could go on… but how it could not be clear by now is beyond me. How do you argue with what is so clear?

Because your basic position is flawed from the start. Much like the Protestant who wants to alter what Jesus said to fit Paul, you are forcing a postion onto Paul that he did not have.

God’s Law IS perfect, man is not.

God’s plan IS perfect, man is not.

God IS perfect, man is not.

If the Law was 100% able to convert men’s hearts, why was there continous need for sacrifice of animals? Would it not be that eventually, man would no longer need to offer sin offerings?

Jesus, in his teachings, showed us that it is what is inside a man that makes him impure, not what enters his mouth or what is covering his body. Does that not differ from the Law? Yes and no.

Let me continue my ideas on the Jewish law. At first, all that was needed was the Noahide laws. However, once Israel went into Egypt, they came out messed up. They had tried to force paganism into Judaism. They had a slave mentality. God, knowing men, gave them a code of law that would force them to remove all of Egypt from their thoughts. It would also force them out of a slave mentality, especially after that generation was dead…

 

[Benjamin8o8]

But Paul again is caught in his own web. Note also that Jesus, according to Paul is not God but a man. If the man Christ Jesus, gave himself as a ransom for all men, then nobody was saved. The OT shows his claim to be a lie.

Your theory states that Paul created Christianity, but Christians believe that Jesus is God. I believe you need to re-read Pauls holy letters, Paul indeed believes Jesus is God.

And Paul describes all Christians who have adopted his new religion which is based on discarding God’s laws and worshipping a man called Jesus:

oh boy, here we go again. This new religion has been practiced when Paul was a traditional JEW! He was persecuting these people that follow this so called new religion. **People lie, history dosent**. And this religion dosent discards Gods law, it just fullfills it.

I also have a question for you, do you believe that every child who curses their parrents should be put to death? why or why not??? It is in the OT.Leviticus 20:9

 

[simplynoone]

Ralphinal:
It is simple though… and God already declared it. What you are doing is coming in to negate what God has already set up.

Noahide Laws = For mankind
613 mitzvot = the commands given to the Jewish by God concerning their covenant… it is to keep God in remembrance in everything they do. It IS FOR THE COVENANT… FOR THE JEWISH… you do not have to make excuses for why YOU think they should not have to follow it anymore because the fact is, you DO NOT. You are not bound to such. Thus, you can forget about them; forget about your desire to dictate on behalf of God why they were needed and now no longer needed; forget about how they are impossible for you to keep… because they have nothing to do with us… unless by our choice.

All that is and ever was required from mankind was that we keep the common sense Laws. It is simple… it is nothing that required a man to be sacrificed.

The sacrifices of the jewish were symbolic. Perhaps if you would actually take time to try and understand them, you would see that they are actually very telling of the truth because you will NOT find one in there that is symbolic of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind. In fact, God was very specific in proving that He was NOT like the other gods when He sent a ram to Abraham in the stead of his son. That was not Abraham proving himself to God, but quite the opposite… God proving that He is the True God. He is very adament that each man dies for his own sins… to extinguish the breath of Life in one for the sake of others would make Life cheap.

What Paul has offered you by deceit via the ignorance common to Gentiles is the covenant of death…

Heb 9:15-18
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament,** that by means of death**, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Here is what God said about that specifically:
Isaiah 28:
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

He could not even keep his own deception straight!!!

Heb 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

But prior to these verses the author of Hebrews stated although the old covenant was obsolete. It had not yet disappeared.

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 8 was written after the death of Jesus, after the resurrection, and after the ascension. Yet according to Heb 8:13 the old covenant had not yet passed away but was going to pass away “soon”.
When exactly did it pass away? If the new the new covenant took effect at the death of Jesus, the obsolete old covenant should no longer exist at all. Was this replacement of new for old supposed to be a gradual process? Was the implementation of the old covenant a gradual process or did it apply immediately?

And never is there a new testament or new law testified in the Tanakh to be given… Jeremiah 31 is a new covenant with the house of Israel in which God writes HIS LAWS (THE SAME LAWS) on the hearts of His People…

AND, though the author of Hebrews ahem quotes parts of Jeremiah 31 concerning the new covenant, he conveniently leaves out A VERY important part of the covenant.
Jer 31:29-30
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

it is no wonder God gave the following command to His People:

Jer 10:2-5
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

These actions by Christians laugh in the face of the instructions God gave in the
Tanakh. God instructs His people not to learn or practice the ways of the nations around them. It’s astounding how Christians will ignore what the Bible tells them when it conflicts with what they want to do.

 

[simplynoone]

Let me elaborate exactly what it is I mean by my last statement… it being astounding what Christians will ignore… and I’ll use Paul’s teachings that are ignored QUITE a bit… even the first one I will list is ignored on this board.

1 Tim 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Would be embarrassing if I said Paul was right; being that I am a woman and all…

1 Cor 7:32-35
But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

As Paul points out, the unmarried live in a right way, which is in undivided devotion to the Lord.

No wonder it is acceptable that Mary conceived being a virgin despite that the Laws of Nature dictate this impossible (w/out intervention of modern interventions).
or that it is UNTHINKABLE that Jesus could be married.

According to Paul… it is not the right way… to be married, that is.

 

[simplynoone]

Your theory states that Paul created Christianity, but Christians believe that Jesus is God. I believe you need to re-read Pauls holy letters, Paul indeed believes Jesus is God.

oh boy, here we go again. This new religion has been practiced when Paul was a traditional JEW! He was persecuting these people that follow this so called new religion. **People lie, history dosent**. And this religion dosent discards Gods law, it just fullfills it.

I also have a question for you, do you believe that every child who curses their parrents should be put to death? why or why not??? It is in the OT.Leviticus 20:9

To the first two statements… I am proving it!
To the last, I am not Jewish, so it does not apply to me. However, I do understand what it is saying… It is very wise advice when one quits seeking the understanding of the heathen and starts seeking the understanding of God. In the understanding of God’s Ways, yes… I agree with it for the sake of the child’s heart; though I do not understand it to mean physical death.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

To the first two statements… I am proving it!
To the last, I am not Jewish, so it does not apply to me. However, I do understand what it is saying… It is very wise advice when one quits seeking the understanding of the heathen and starts seeking the understanding of God. In the understanding of God’s Ways, yes… I agree with it for the sake of the child’s heart; though I do not understand it to mean physical death.

In order to prove your theory you need to have the ability to rewrite history, but in this case you don`t so nuh…us Catholics win this debate.

I think that is a recorded death penalty in the OT. There is much more death penelties in the OT, and Im curious if you believe they should still be followed. I realized you didn`t directly answer the question with a yes or no because you know where I am going with this.

God Bless you.

 

[simplynoone]

In order to prove your theory you need to have the ability to rewrite history, but in this case you don`t so nuh…us Catholics win this debate.

I think that is a recorded death penalty in the OT. There is much more death penelties in the OT, and Im curious if you believe they should still be followed. I realized you didn`t directly answer the question with a yes or no because you know where I am going with this.

God Bless you.

I can not force you to use your mind toward logical funtion, but if I could try… please, share with me how “this debate has been won by the Catholics.” You can not just say I win and you lose without showing any evidences for how you arrived to your conclusion. It makes no sense whatsoever and shows that you have no care to find THE Truth, but rather to settle on whatever it is that makes your life easy (or as you perceive it to be).

As for the 2nd part, I did answer you. Yes, I am aware that you think you are trapping me into something, but it can not be done when you do not even show basic knowledge of the Tanakh. You can not even acknowledge the contradictions I have brought up about Paul (which IS basic knowledge)… how could you even begin to perceive something as profound as the commands given of the covenant between Israel and God?

 

[simplynoone]

And yet the Bible is the story of a people who refused to follow them…

Ralphinal, since you have posted this statement up, it has not left my mind as it is something that has had a VERY profound impact on me concerning my understanding of not only the Jewish People, but of the Nature of God. It was this very statement that I once held to as well and it was the block that was keeping me from understanding so much of the Word of God… the Beauty contained therein… and certainly it kept me from understanding how to relate to God.

Here is what Christianity teaches that hinders us from seeing the BEAUTY in God’s Nature.

Jesus, whether seen as the ONLY Son of God or God, is taught to us as being perfect; sinless. Yet at the same time, we are taught that He is our example… that He, this perfect man who did things that you and I only dream of, that materialized as God incarnate, that is perfect and superhuman like… this man is our example.

Sorry… that is just not something I can relate to as I was created with what Christians consider a flaw… that flaw is called free will. Now… here is this sinless, perfect man who I must strive to be like. According to Christianity, he was subjected to all that I am and yet he handled it perfectly. RAPHINAL… this left me feeling guilty and ashamed. I felt like a failure… and that kept me from the perfect work of God… that is to say, being able to learn from that “flaw” via experiencing and learning from those experiences. Instead, though I just entered in the world and was living with the best of intentions, I was guilted and told I would be punished for being me.

Then, to add insult to injury, this perfect man/god died for me… and still I could not obtain to his level of perfection. So, now, not only did I feel like a failure, but I am held in part responsible for the death of someone else for my learning via experiences. That is, of course, unless I said with my lips that I agree he died for me… then … well… then what? I still will not be guaranteed what is being perceived as perfection… that is, unless my free will is taken away… and in that case, what is the point? It does not and never did make sense to me. I hated the thought that I was expected to live up to something that actually seemed a rather boring existence and then on top of that, that someone else was put to death for me… all to live for an eternity being a robot.

While the People of Israel were imperfect… they always turned back. God loved them so much that He chastised them and despite all of their “flaws”… they still had this GREAT love for their Creator. They complained at times… sure, but after a good chastisement from God, they knew REAL love! God has not and will not abandon them because of that perceived flaw… that flaw is part of the perfect work of God… it is what allows for the converting of the soul in a way that Jesus dying for me could never do. The Law is not my curse… it is my blessing… it is a mirror for MY OWN soul and not a reflection tool. As long as I am seeking the ways of God, He promised that He would hold me up… and since I have taken hold of that promise, He has.

I have been called rebellious… and though it may at times appear that way, it is nothing more than my striving to better understand the One who created me. That flaw is not something I am punished for… that “flaw” aka free will is my tool to seek HIM and further develop a relationship with God. Without that flaw, that free will, than I have no purpose in life and might as well cease to exist.

I do not view God as evil as the those in the Christian religions do. I see that His work really is a perfect work. I see that He gave His Laws (down to the very basic Laws of Nature) because He is truly a lovely creator. He is not going to punish me eternally for being born into Life… and His chastisements are beautiful and nothing I would dare forgo. I KNOW His love for me is great… and I know He has not changed His love for His people. All this judging of them is ironic considering there are many of them who have stuck to His side… despite the mockings and spittings on that they have had to endure because the Church assumes God has abandoned them and HIS ways to offer something cheap to people who have not endured near the chastisements of God as has Israel. To even assume that God deemed His work with them as pointless is to not understand God’s heart at all. I can relate to the Jewish People and their rebellion… because it teaches me determination to get back up and keep going despite the obstacles and it teaches me of the Love God has for those who do not give up on Him no matter the costs.

The christian perspectives only taught me that I am failure and not worth anything unless I said I put my faith in a human sacrifice. I love the Chosen of God BECAUSE of their flaw… for I have the same flaw!!! The only reward that is worth having is Life… as it is.

 

[simplynoone]

Clarifying some points above… I did not proof read in time to be able to correct.

I said the Law of God is a mirror for my own soul and not a reflection tool (add on: not a reflection tool for others). You judge the Jewish People and yet admit that you yourself are not perfect. What would have been the point of God to carefully guide them along in the way He did if only to negate it all by cheaply offering up a life as a sacrifice. It is contradictory to everything that we have learned through this great People about the Nature of God. It cheapens all that He has done for and through them. It cheapens Life as it has been created. Seriously, I want to know what you all think will happen once you die. Do you IMMEDIATELY become perfect? If so, that perceived perfection… it would have to constitute your free will being taken away and if you can not experience, what good is eternity anyway? It is really a frustrating thought for me. As I said, I choose to believe that God’s work really is perfect… I MAY NOT always be perceived as perfect by you all… but the fact that I am teachable and have a thirst to learn about Him, what He has and is creating, and am not looking to gain some cheap eternity lived out in a robot type of existence, I feel confident that He considers me a perfectly usable being for His ongoing creation!

 

[Verisimilitude]

Sorry… that is just not something I can relate to as I was created with what Christians consider a flaw… that flaw is called free will.

Free will is not a flaw to Catholics in the sense you suggest. It is what rational beings are given in our human nature as a created being. God had reserved the authority to declare what is good and what is evil for himself, but did not deny the exercise of free will to humans.

Jews used to sacrifice animals to expiate personal sin and you find it bewildering God did so for humanity of his own accord? Mercy manifested itself in Christ and you find that a lackluster life.

The christian perspectives only taught me that I am failure and not worth anything unless I said I put my faith in a human sacrifice.

It should have taught you that you are of infinate worth to God and Christs sacrifice freed you from sin if you choose to follow.

 

[scooter469]

Hear! Hear! I decided I am not going to read any more of these subversive threads trying to show that Jesus is not the Son of God. I think we should boycott these threads and not argue or reason with the anti-Catholic posters.

Now is the time to remember our dear Lord who suffered and died for us.

Amen

 

[simplynoone]

It should have taught you that you are of infinate worth to God and Christs sacrifice freed you from sin if you choose to follow.

So, you are perfect now, correct? no more sin? No more flaws in which to speak of in your life? You have now, via the human sacrifice, a sinless and perfect state of existence? How did this happen for you? Amazing really, because I just never could seem to obtain the perfect type of existence that is attributed to Jesus.

 

[Verisimilitude]

So, you are perfect now, correct? no more sin? No more flaws in which to speak of in your life? You have now, via the human sacrifice, a sinless and perfect state of existence? How did this happen for you? Amazing really, because I just never could seem to obtain the perfect type of existence that is attributed to Jesus.

I once read a book “Secret Life of God” by David Aaron; in it he explains a concept of Kabbalah wherein the type of perfection God created includes the possibility for dynamic perfection- becoming perfect…striving and working hard toward becoming perfect.

I imagine I have about as much success in perfection as you do, maybe less, but it does not mean the perfect example of Christ is less perfect than the Law God gave Moses. Obviously I think Christ is above Moses; Moses was given the law by God and could not follow it perfectly himself, whereas Christ was the Word made flesh and did.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation makes me perfect in the sight of God again though it doesn’t keep me perfect if I continue to sin. I fight the internal hypocrisy battle all the time but it strengthens me each time and I tend to do better each time, but few have the will power like Mother Teresa. Most of us are much more like Peter before the Resurrection who exhibited epic personal failures in the Gospels.

What I have now because of Jesus is the same thing you do, the perfect example for this life and life itself to achieve it if I keep trying.

 

[rinnie]

Clarifying some points above… I did not proof read in time to be able to correct.

I said the Law of God is a mirror for my own soul and not a reflection tool (add on: not a reflection tool for others). You judge the Jewish People and yet admit that you yourself are not perfect. What would have been the point of God to carefully guide them along in the way He did if only to negate it all by cheaply offering up a life as a sacrifice. It is contradictory to everything that we have learned through this great People about the Nature of God. It cheapens all that He has done for and through them. It cheapens Life as it has been created. Seriously, I want to know what you all think will happen once you die. Do you IMMEDIATELY become perfect? If so, that perceived perfection… it would have to constitute your free will being taken away and if you can not experience, what good is eternity anyway? It is really a frustrating thought for me. As I said, I choose to believe that God’s work really is perfect… I MAY NOT always be perceived as perfect by you all… but the fact that I am teachable and have a thirst to learn about Him, what He has and is creating, and am not looking to gain some cheap eternity lived out in a robot type of existence, I feel confident that He considers me a perfectly usable being for His ongoing creation!

Hi simplynone. Boy you guys have been busy. I think the as far as being perfect we all fail the test, as I am sure you will agree. I think the main point here is the reason Jesus died for our sins, is exactly that. Our sins. No one is perfect but Jesus Christ himself. Everytime I think about Jesus being perfect and dying for our sins, I always think about the struggles we have in this world, and how hard people can be on people. My Dad always told me this. We are not put here to have a perfect easy life, we are put here to suffer. This is not the world we want simplynoone. Why you may ask. Simple God is not here everyday with us (where we can actually see, and talk to him, and get our answers now). Everytime things would get hard my Dad would say. This is NOT our world, if it was our world things would be easy. Look at Jesus. He was perfect and they crucified him, what do you think they are going to do to you.

See when Adam and Eve came into the world the world was perfect. There was no sin, but Adam and Eve gave into sin. Thats what we call original sin, thats why we cannot be perfect. We always have the urge to sin because of that. The devil knows that, that is why he lays for us in our weakness. God knows this. But he still gives us the chance to do good, and fight sin. That is why Jesus came, to help us. How you may ask, he left us the Church and the Apostles to teach us, to help us, and he gave them the great gift to forgive sin. That is what repent, and confession is, to wipe out our sin, and try to be perfect. The more we try the more we pray the easier it can be. But we will all sin, and God knows that, that is again why he left us the Church.

 

[rinnie]

Now getting to Paul. You must remember Paul was a great leader of his Church. He was a part of a Elite Jewish group. He had alot of authority among the Jewish People, and was greatly respected. Paul hated the word of Jesus Christ and was determined to put a stop to the Church.

Then you must remember what happened (this is probally my favorite part of the bible). Paul why are you persecuting me. Now we both know that Paul thought he was doing the right thing, he was working for God, So he thought. But when we heard the word of God and said who are you? That is when God said it is I Jesus the one you are persecuting.

Now two important things here. Paul showed us if you persecute the Church you are persecuting Jesus they are one. Because Jesus did not say you are persecuting MY CHURCH he said ME. Second, here is Paul a Man with great faith and authority, he falls to his knees and says what do I do.

Now here is Paul a Man to stop the CHurch, turns around and defends it. Now he is not only hated by the Jews, the Gentliles sure don’t trust him either. Now you and I both know, that is not a position no one wants to be in. So we both know he did talk to God, and was led by God.

Now as far as scripture remember what I told you. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. Its impossible. It has to be US. We are the ones that are taking it out of context.

If we truely understand scripture it will add up. It has to. THe OT and the NT has to line up. SImply because it is the word of God.