Paul Ryan Discussion

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But it isn’t just a matter of religion or even of a prolife position arrived at in a secular manner. It’s also the Obama attitude toward religion. He tried to establish that the state has the right to determine who Lutheran ministers are or are not, never mind what the Lutheran church thinks about it. He is now imposing the purchase of contraceptives, abortifacients and sterilizations on Catholic institutions.

How would Jews feel if he banned circumcisions or kosher food preparation?

There is not the slightest reason to believe Ryan or Romney would do such things, and every reason to think they would not.
Yes, I agree with you, and have said numerous times that I am opposed to the HHS mandate since it curtails the religious freedom of Catholic institutions. I was not aware of the Lutheran church controversy. How is it possible that the State can determine who Lutheran ministers are?
 
Notice how some people who claim not to be bigoted are some of the most bigoted people out there?
because one has concerns about voting for one who follows a unfamiliar god and feels it goes against their conscience, hardly makes one a bigot. I understand the arguments but am still conflicted on the issue. And, I can also admit that I have trouble articulating my thoughts into words exactly how I would like to and can take some responsibility for ones conclusions they have made from my statements. I thought I could find answers and helpful opinions in this area. I have received some helpful information but, for the most part I have been shunned and labeled a bigot for even attempting to talk about it. I have found many here to be rude, assuming and uncharitable with others with whom they do not agree. Is it really thought to be intollerable to have a conversation in this area or to even have these concerns at all? I cannot see why it would be. Is it not taught to us to be wary of those who’s gods are unfamiliar to us? Or is the use of the term bigot just the stock argument for anyone who brings up the subject? Maybe it is the only argument one has to refute the comment.
 
Yes, I agree with you, and have said numerous times that I am opposed to the HHS mandate since it curtails the religious freedom of Catholic institutions. I was not aware of the Lutheran church controversy. How is it possible that the State can determine who Lutheran ministers are?
The Obama administration knows all…

They lost NINE TO ZERO at SCOTUS. You’d think they would catch on to that religious freedom thing our country was founded upon.
Lisa
 
Yes, I agree with you, and have said numerous times that I am opposed to the HHS mandate since it curtails the religious freedom of Catholic institutions. I was not aware of the Lutheran church controversy. How is it possible that the State can determine who Lutheran ministers are?
Its possible because of people of good will voted for Obama and many will vote for him again. They rationalize supporting him in spite oft of his attacks on religion and his support of homosexual marriage and unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand,
 
As many have pointed out to you and other ‘fence sitters’ that unless you have a truly compelling reason not to vote for RR (your dislike of Mormonism doesn’t cut it IMO) then by either not voting or voting 3rd party you are in effect handing Obama a free vote.

You are inadvertently helping Obama with your refusal to consider that no Bishop or Cardinal has proclaimed Catholics can vote for RR without believing they are complying with evil. Voting for Obama would be voting for evil to continue and a Catholic cannot vote for him if they are a believing, practicing Catholic.

You have a viable alternative to Obama.

Lisa
If I vote, which is a very big if, I’ll write in a candidate, like…Jesus Christ.

(Why would any good Catholic vote for RR who belongs to a faith whose founder claimed to be “the prophet like unto Moses”? It’s like voting for someone who is a follower of an antichrist.)

God’s peace

micah
 
because one has concerns about voting for one who follows a unfamiliar god and feels it goes against their conscience, hardly makes one a bigot. I understand the arguments but am still conflicted on the issue. And, I can also admit that I have trouble articulating my thoughts into words exactly how I would like to and can take some responsibility for ones conclusions they have made from my statements. I thought I could find answers and helpful opinions in this area. I have received some helpful information but, for the most part I have been shunned and labeled a bigot for even attempting to talk about it. I have found many here to be rude, assuming and uncharitable with others with whom they do not agree. Is it really thought to be intollerable to have a conversation in this area or to even have these concerns at all? I cannot see why it would be. Is it not taught to us to be wary of those who’s gods are unfamiliar to us? Or is the use of the term bigot just the stock argument for anyone who brings up the subject? Maybe it is the only argument one has to refute the comment.
How is it rude to tell someone the truth about what the Catholic Church actually teaches?

The Church has not issued any guidence on how to vote based on someone’s religon. As such, simply not voting for someone because they are Mormon or have a high net worth comes across as intolerant and bigoted, especially when there are more important issues at hand.
 
Why dont you share the answers you have foiund?
For one thing, in Genesis, the breath of life, meaning the soul, was infused in Adam after the creation of his earthly body. This suggests, according to rabbinical interpretation, that the human status of the unborn child is not completed since s/he does not have a soul infused into their body. There are other passages in Torah as well that suggest similar differences in the human status of the unborn.

In the Talmud, there is the concept of the rodef (pursuer) that has been applied to abortion in cases where the mother’s life is in danger. The unborn child is, in a sense, pursuing the life of its mother, and can be (in fact, must be, based on Jewish Law) aborted to preserve her life. It’s a complex explanation and should be studied in its entirety in order to be understood. The Talmud also discusses instances of rape and incest as leniencies in which abortion is permitted, but not required.

If Romney and Ryan, particularly the latter, propose legislation in keeping with the Republican Party’s platform, that there are no exceptions to abortion, this would be a violation of Jewish Law. The fact that Ryan co-sponsored the personhood status of the embryo, rejected by Mississippi voters, shows this type of legislation is not beyond possibility.
 
If I vote, which is a very big if, I’ll write in a candidate, like…Jesus Christ.

(Why would any good Catholic vote for RR who belongs to a faith whose founder claimed to be “the prophet like unto Moses”? It’s like voting for someone who is a follower of an antichrist.)

God’s peace

micah
So you believe this is a theocracy? Wow that’s an interesting interpretation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I do not share Romney’s religious beliefs but we share the same VALUES and that is far more important. The one thing you cannot judge is someone’s spiritual life. But we can judge actions and the actions of Obama have been destructive of this country, its people, unborn human life, and our national security. I couldn’t give a rat’s patooty that Obama claims to believe in the Trinity. How is that working out for you Micah?
Lisa
 
If I vote, which is a very big if, I’ll write in a candidate, like…Jesus Christ.

(Why would any good Catholic vote for RR who belongs to a faith whose founder claimed to be “the prophet like unto Moses”? It’s like voting for someone who is a follower of an antichrist.)

God’s peace

micah
I would just like to point out that Cardinal Dolan disagrees with you. There are plenty of other reasons one may have for not voting for Romney, but his religion should not be one of them, according to the Cardinal. I agree with his statement.
 
For one thing, in Genesis, the breath of life, meaning the soul, was infused in Adam after the creation of his earthly body. This suggests, according to rabbinical interpretation, that the human status of the unborn child is not completed since s/he does not have a soul infused into their body. There are other passages in Torah as well that suggest similar differences in the human status of the unborn.

In the Talmud, there is the concept of the rodef (pursuer) that has been applied to abortion in cases where the mother’s life is in danger. The unborn child is, in a sense, pursuing the life of its mother, and can be (in fact, must be, based on Jewish Law) aborted to preserve her life. It’s a complex explanation and should be studied in its entirety in order to be understood. The Talmud also discusses instances of rape and incest as leniencies in which abortion is permitted, but not required.
When is the soul infused Meltzerboy? A rabbitzen whom I’ve read extensively speaks of God knowing us before we were born, knitting us together in our mother’s womb. I think this is from your end of the Bible is it not?

The ‘life of the mother’ exception is not the reason for 99.999999% of abortions in this country. One can make some sort of rational argument for that choice even if it is not part of Catholic teaching, I can at least understand the rationale there. OTOH since the maority of abortions in this country are simply after sex birth control and for the convenience of the mother, the cavalier attitude toward the unborn baby mystifies me.

Again where in any other part of life does one person, the mother, not the father, not the family, not society have power of life or death over another human being?

Lisa
 
So you believe this is a theocracy? Wow that’s an interesting interpretation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I do not share Romney’s religious beliefs but we share the same VALUES and that is far more important. The one thing you cannot judge is someone’s spiritual life. But we can judge actions and the actions of Obama have been destructive of this country, its people, unborn human life, and our national security. I couldn’t give a rat’s patooty that Obama claims to believe in the Trinity. How is that working out for you Micah?
Lisa
Now Lisa, calm down. I personally detest politics, my vote if I voted would be a protest vote against this sham called elections.

I do believe that the Spirit of Jesus Christ would be a better solution for America than the spirit of Mormonism and the spirit of hording wealth. After all, ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’, which includes abortion.

God’s peace

micah
 
I would just like to point out that Cardinal Dolan disagrees with you. There are plenty of other reasons one may have for not voting for Romney, but his religion should not be one of them, according to the Cardinal. I agree with his statement.
I realize this, but the love of money is engrained in the founding principles of the Freemasonry/Mormonism philosophy. So when Jesus said, that we can not serve both God and mammon, evidently there are people who are running for office who think they can.

God’s peace

micah
 
When is the soul infused Meltzerboy? A rabbitzen whom I’ve read extensively speaks of God knowing us before we were born, knitting us together in our mother’s womb. I think this is from your end of the Bible is it not?

The ‘life of the mother’ exception is not the reason for 99.999999% of abortions in this country. One can make some sort of rational argument for that choice even if it is not part of Catholic teaching, I can at least understand the rationale there. OTOH since the maority of abortions in this country are simply after sex birth control and for the convenience of the mother, the cavalier attitude toward the unborn baby mystifies me.

Again where in any other part of life does one person, the mother, not the father, not the family, not society have power of life or death over another human being?

Lisa
I disagree with your first statement. With all due apologies to the Rebbetzin, this is not the majority viewpoint among Orthodox Jews. The only part of life in which one person, the mother, makes the final decision is the part of life most personal to her own body and soul, that part in which she is carrying her unborn child. That’s precisely why this issue should remain a private and personal decision.
 
I disagree with your first statement. With all due apologies to the Rebbetzin, this is not the majority viewpoint among Orthodox Jews. The only part of life in which one person, the mother, makes the final decision is the part of life most personal to her own body and soul, that part in which she is carrying her unborn child. That’s precisely why this issue should remain a private and personal decision.
It’s private because it’s violent and cruel. You believe the pregnant woman alone is given the power to kill her child. Interesting interpretation of “Thou shalt not murder.” Like the sexual abuse of children, it is “private and personal” where one has the power to inflict damage on another simply because of one’s power.

BTW when does God infuse the soul into the body? I do a lot of reading in Jewish theology books and didn’t run into any definitive answer that one must be born first. Could you please direct me? As to the Orthodox belief, it is my understanding that they are against abortion UNLESS it’s for the LIFE of the mother. Am I wrong in that understanding?

BTW I am a huge reader of Rabbi David Aaron. Your thoughts about Rabbi Aaron?
Lisa
 
I realize this, but the love of money is engrained in the founding principles of the Freemasonry/Mormonism philosophy. So when Jesus said, that we can not serve both God and mammon, evidently there are people who are running for office who think they can.

God’s peace

micah
Are you so well-versed in Mormonism? I know plenty of people think they know what Islam stands for, but are probably wrong. And, G-d knows, so many misinterpret Judaism and Catholicism. Be careful that you know what you’re talking about relative to Mormon teaching. Further, could you then vote for a Jew or a Muslim, both of whom deny the most fundamental dogma of the Trinity? How many other groups would you have to exclude because they don’t fit your religious beliefs? I don’t mean to sound confrontational; I’m just curious about what your reasoning is on this issue.
 
I realize this, but the love of money is engrained in the founding principles of the Freemasonry/Mormonism philosophy. So when Jesus said, that we can not serve both God and mammon, evidently there are people who are running for office who think they can.

God’s peace

micah
Well if you don’t consider Cardinal Dolan much of an authority, I suspect no one here can make a difference.

I remember when people told me Romney’s Mormonism would be an issue. I didnt’ believe such bigotry still existed. I guess I was wrong.

Lisa
 
Are you so well-versed in Mormonism? I know plenty of people think they know what Islam stands for, but are probably wrong. And, G-d knows, so many misinterpret Judaism and Catholicism. Be careful that you know what you’re talking about relative to Mormon teaching. Further, could you then vote for a Jew or a Muslim, both of whom deny the most fundamental dogma of the Trinity? How many other groups would you have to exclude because they don’t fit your religious beliefs? I don’t mean to sound confrontational; I’m just curious about what your reasoning is on this issue.
It is historical fact that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were Freemasons. It is also historical fact that Joseph Smith claimed to be the prophet like unto Moses. It is also historical fact that Joseph Smith claimed to be the founder of the one true religion. It is also historical fact that these founders of the Mormon religion thought that they were bringing the New Jerusalem to the U.S. It is also historical fact that Adam is the god and father of Mormons.

Now, how much of these philosophical and religious ideas are still part of the Mormon faith I can not say. I personally have found Mormons to be very decent people, but this was only on a casual basis.

If I was to vote, I would vote for any professing Jew, Muslim, or Christian who served God rather than mammon. Some say that the abortion issue is the central issue, scriptures say ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’, and by default is the central issue.

God’s peace

micah
 
Well if you don’t consider Cardinal Dolan much of an authority, I suspect no one here can make a difference.

I remember when people told me Romney’s Mormonism would be an issue. I didnt’ believe such bigotry still existed. I guess I was wrong.

Lisa
I think that following the teachings of Jesus Christ, especially when He says, "you can not serve both God and mammon’ is more authoritative than what any human being has to say.

God’s peace

micah
 
I think that following the teachings of Jesus Christ, especially when He says, "you can not serve both God and mammon’ is more authoritative than what any human being has to say.

God’s peace

micah
Jesus used money to pay the temple tax (remember Him telling Peter to go fishing and take the tax out of the mouth of the first fish that he caught*?), so obviously he wasn’t “against” money. What He was against was an unhealthy attachment to money.

*It just struck me that this proves that Jesus had no problem with working for money. He could have just as easily produced the money from nothing, but that would smack too much of an unmerited giveaway. Instead, He makes St Peter work for it:)
 
I think that following the teachings of Jesus Christ, especially when He says, "you can not serve both God and mammon’ is more authoritative than what any human being has to say.

God’s peace

micah
I don’t understand why you think Romney serves ‘mammon.’ Yes he’s rich but he took no salary when he ran the Olympics, my understanding is he returned his governor’s salary,he tithes extensively. He’s not running for President because of the high pay although I will say the housing situation is pretty nice!

I see a humble servant toiling in the Vineyard, not Ceasar vying for more power.

Lisa
 
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