Paul Ryan Discussion

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Your question has been answered several times. I posted direct quotes from a Cardinal and an Archbishop. A Catholic can vote for RR in good conscience. They can also throw their vote away on the Constitution party if they want. They can not vote for Obama.
Estesbob, I think you were on CAF for the Bush/Kerry race. The same blather was used to support the “Constipation” Party…was it Bob Barr back then? Same song, different verse. Same inane arguments.

Clearly the Church has indicated a vote for R&R is a vote for preserving the sancitity of life. Why anyone would listen to someone simply express an uninformed opinion is beyond me. I hope this has the same insignificant impact as it did in 06. But having seen a third party derail a great candidate in my state and even if you look back at the Bush/Clinton race, I hope reason will prevail.

Lisa
 
So the end justifies the means? The end is removing Obama from office, and the means is compromising with intrinsic evil?
Your argument is specious and frankly IMO disingenuous. You can’t fool us Joe. The R&R ticket has been blessed by greater authorities in the church than you. So why would anyone take your advice?

Lisa
 
Your argument is specious and frankly IMO disingenuous. You can’t fool us Joe. The R&R ticket has been blessed by greater authorities in the church than you. So why would anyone take your advice?

Lisa
I’m not advising anything. I’m just trying to figure this out. Does the end justify the means or not? It is wrong to allow abortion in case of rape, isn’t it?
 
I’m not advising anything. I’m just trying to figure this out. Does the end justify the means or not? It is wrong to allow abortion in case of rape, isn’t it?
That is my belief, yes. It is the Church’s position.

But you posit the argument that R&R is merely the lesser of two evils. Therefore you start from an inaccurate theory, that we are complicit in evil by voting for this ticket. In that you are wrong and your opinion or theory or whatever you call it, is countered by the Church. Now who ya gonna believe? Joe Bowen, a faceless presence on an internet chat or a Cardinal…hmmmm took me about two seconds to figure that one out.

Garbage in, garbage out. Start with a false premise and you cannot expect a valid answer.

Lisa
 
Practically speaking, I think you’re correct in that the government cannot please every religion and every personal viewpoint. But I still believe the less interference between religion on governmental policy and the reverse, the better.
Key word (wrong word ;)) = “interference”

Meltzerboy, if committed black Baptists (+other Protestants), + Catholics + Jews, had not “interfered” with existing Southern culture back in the 1960’s, the Civil Rights movement as we know it would not have occurred. It was, in large respect, a religiously driven movement, aided by (to Lisa’s point) moral atheists and agnositcs (to a much lesser extent).

A good Jew reconciles his moral conscience with his voting decisions, no? (In my experience, yes.) In fact, of all the people I know, including Catholics, Jews are much more likely to actually agonize over voting decisions than any other single group.

Again, tangentially to Lisa’s point, I see much of the late 20-th and early 21st-century Jewish activism in politics to be post-Shoah consciousness. It is very important to every practicing Jew I personally know (and I know a lot of them ;)) not to be silent on civic issues which have moral import. It doesn’t matter how much a minority Jews are in the population, it is Standing for something that is the issue. (Christians call it Witness. :))
I would not even want to recommend what another family should do in situations such as this or in those involving the mercy-killing of a loved one. It is none of my business and none of the government’s business.
You can look upon it as “recommending.” Or you can look upon it as saying, “Here is what I stand for, because this is how my faith informs my conscience on this issue.” You could not say just that, speaking to a Jewish family who seemed racked by indecision?
 
Estesbob, I think you were on CAF for the Bush/Kerry race. The same blather was used to support the “Constipation” Party…was it Bob Barr back then? Same song, different verse. Same inane arguments.

Clearly the Church has indicated a vote for R&R is a vote for preserving the sancitity of life. Why anyone would listen to someone simply express an uninformed opinion is beyond me. I hope this has the same insignificant impact as it did in 06. But having seen a third party derail a great candidate in my state and even if you look back at the Bush/Clinton race, I hope reason will prevail.

Lisa
I was here. Same lame argunents, probably fromthe same people.
 
That is my belief, yes. It is the Church’s position.

But you posit the argument that R&R is merely the lesser of two evils. Therefore you start from an inaccurate theory, that we are complicit in evil by voting for this ticket. In that you are wrong and your opinion or theory or whatever you call it, is countered by the Church. Now who ya gonna believe? Joe Bowen, a faceless presence on an internet chat or a Cardinal…hmmmm took me about two seconds to figure that one out.

Garbage in, garbage out. Start with a false premise and you cannot expect a valid answer.

Lisa
However, I just read in the news: “Republicans in Tampa, Fla., are drafting a platform provision that calls for a “human life amendment” to the Constitution: a ban on abortion with no exceptions for rape or incest.” This seems to contradict what a spokesman for RR had said earlier.
BTW, I said that I was just trying to figure out what is meant by the proposition: the end justifies the means, and whether it applied in this case.
 
However, I just read in the news: “Republicans in Tampa, Fla., are drafting a platform provision that calls for a “human life amendment” to the Constitution: a ban on abortion with no exceptions for rape or incest.” This seems to contradict what a spokesman for RR had said earlier.
BTW, I said that I was just trying to figure out what is meant by the proposition: the end justifies the means, and whether it applied in this case.
There can be differences between a party platform (NOTE: this is a PROPOSITION NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT SO WHY GIN IT UP?) and the candidates. Right now the Dem platform has a gay marriage provision. President Obama, as usual, has put himself squarely on the fence saying he is PERSONALLY for gay marriage but has not proposed and amendment.

This is news to you?

As to your final sentence. I simply do not believe you were “just trying to figure out…blah blah blah…” I saw the same tactic used in 06, 08, and 10. It’s not working…

Lisa
 
There can be differences between a party platform (NOTE: this is a PROPOSITION NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT SO WHY GIN IT UP?) and the candidates. Right now the Dem platform has a gay marriage provision. President Obama, as usual, has put himself squarely on the fence saying he is PERSONALLY for gay marriage but has not proposed and amendment.

This is news to you?

As to your final sentence. I simply do not believe you were “just trying to figure out…blah blah blah…” I saw the same tactic used in 06, 08, and 10. It’s not working…

Lisa
It is a standard principle that it is immoral to use a bad means to effect a good end.
 
There can be differences between a party platform (NOTE: this is a PROPOSITION NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT SO WHY GIN IT UP?) and the candidates. Right now the Dem platform has a gay marriage provision. President Obama, as usual, has put himself squarely on the fence saying he is PERSONALLY for gay marriage but has not proposed and amendment.

This is news to you?

As to your final sentence. I simply do not believe you were “just trying to figure out…blah blah blah…” I saw the same tactic used in 06, 08, and 10. It’s not working…

Lisa
Lisa-
It’s about that same time in the election cycle. Look for the hordes of new members pretending to support Catholic Teaching with the same tired arguments that have been addressed over and over again.:yawn:

I haven’t seen the “but under Bill Clinton, abortions declined,” argument yet, though.:hypno:
 
I don’t care about Romney’s tax return. I care more about the Obama unemployment rate (too high), the Obama deficit (too high), the Obama gas prices (too high). You might care more about Romney’s tax return, but I suspect that most Americans care more about getting the economy back on track, our fiscal situation back from the brink, and having a sound energy policy that does more than give hundreds of millions to failing companies that turn around and donate to the Obama campaign. Like I’ve been saying, Obama dreads a campaign on the actual issues - he will lose. So he needs to make personal attacks on Romney. If I were Romney I wouldn’t release his tax records until Obama releases his academic records - Obama seems to be hiding something there. Then the clammor for Romney releasing his tax return would stop because Obama obviously doesn’t want to release his academic records. Then the campaign would be about the issues and Obama would lose.

Ishii
Bingo!👍
 
It is a standard principle that it is immoral to use a bad means to effect a good end.
Yes, but once again. You started with an erroneous premise…that a vote for either ticket was evil, one simply less evil than the other. Your premise is wrong and therefore no valid answer exists. It’s simply creating a roadbloack where none existed.

If pigs could fly would they use a fixed wing or rotor?

Lisa
 
Lisa-
It’s about that same time in the election cycle. Look for the hordes of new members pretending to support Catholic Teaching with the same tired arguments that have been addressed over and over again.:yawn:

I haven’t seen the “but under Bill Clinton, abortions declined,” argument yet, though.:hypno:
Yes indeed! I noticed on another thread a sudden influx of self described faithful Catholics who surprisingly enough are promoting non-Catholic ideas. Same song different verse! I will watch for the usual suspects…as you said “under Clinton abortions declined.”

Lisa
 
Like I asked, isn’t it is better not to shake hands with Satan and compromise with intrinsic evil. Why not oppose intrinsic evil 100% and vote for Virgil Goode?
We can now vote for RR. The Repubs are now offically 100% anti-abortion!
.
Earlier today, the Republican National Convention approved a plank in their platform advocating for the passage of the “Human Life Amendment,” which would ban abortion in all circumstances, even in cases of rape or incest.
abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/mitt-romney-asks-todd-akin-quit-missouri-senate/story?id=17048232&page=2
 
Romney-Ryan 2012 is the ticket most favorable to the Catholic Church. I will vote GOP in the national and Virginia state elections. We have George Allen running the Commonwealth. Good man!
 
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