Paul Ryan Discussion

[ishii]

Either. Can anyone say Obamacare?

So you think Justice Scalia is the same as Ruth Bader Ginsburg?

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Here are some questions for you:
Do the two major parties actually represent the interests of ordinary people?
Is the country is being led effectively by our elected leaders from either of the major parties?
Should a wider spectrum of perspectives, viewpoints and solutions be represented in public discourse and institutions than just Republican or Democrat?
Do the mainstream political parties care more for their own internal interests rather than the interests of the country as a whole?
Have both the Democrats and the Republicans lied to us?
Republicans say they are for limited government, but did the government decrease substantially when Bush was in power? Republicans say they are against abortions, but were there more than one million abortions per year under the Bush regime?

Will be glad to answer your questions. But first I want you to answer the question I’ve been asking you: Who do you want choosing the next two or three supreme court justices, Romney/Ryan or Obama/Biden?

Ishii

 

[JoeBowen7]

Will be glad to answer your questions. But first I want you to answer the question I’ve been asking you: Who do you want choosing the next two or three supreme court justices, Romney/Ryan or Obama/Biden?

Ishii

neither one, as I have indicated above.
Both Democrats and Republicans have lied. Do you agree with that?
Why then would you trust either party to appoint justices to the Supreme Court.
Do you like the Republican appointee John Roberts?
As I have already indicated, the country is not being led effectively by our elected leaders from either Republican or Democrat. We do not need the current monopoly by Republicans and Democrat, but we need a wider spectrum of perspectives, viewpoints and solutions.
Are you against deficit spending? If so, you would not vote Republican, because the Debt rose $4.899 trillion during the two terms of the Bush. Are you against abortion? If so, you should keep in mind that there were more than one million abortions per year under the Bush regime.
Are you for more jobs being kept in the USA and not shipped to China? If so, you would not vote Republican because it was the Republicans under Nixon and Kissinger who started this whole business of shipping jobs to China when Nixon and Kissinger personallyflew to China and bowed and shook hands with the murderous Communist dictator Mao Tse Tung. Some reports say as many as 45 million people were killed during the ‘Great Leap Forward’. Why then do Republicans want to shake hands and bow down to Mao Tse Tung and get the ball rolling to send American jobs overseas. This only has the result of throwing Americans out of work and starving these hard working Americans and their families to death.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy, apparently. It’s called evading the question.

I’m not sure what the purpose of the question is in the first place. Does this relate to abortion again? Or are you being critical of my statement that I support religious freedom?

 

[meltzerboy]

Especially interesting with respect to Romney as Mormonism was called a cult on this thread or on the previous Paul Ryan thread. Oh and ask a JW about Catholics! WHOOWEE! You’ll find we are members of a cult who worships the Whore of Babylon…

As you said, there is sometimes a fine line and a matter of interpretation.

Lisa

Or a Catholic about JW’s. But what does any of this have to do with the price of milk; that is, how is it relevant to what I said about supporting religious freedom rather than governmental interference? IOW, I don’t understand what the intent of Robert’s question is.

 

[rlg94086]

Actually, in comparison to the third world, I am wealthy. (Eventhough I have this 10 year old laptop that was given to me, a junker of a vehicle, and am living from paycheck to paycheck with no retirement).

Well, then, you are worshipping mammon?

In fact, I sometimes think that to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ while living in this country is almost impossible. We have so much that we take for granted. When I think about this, I can not assume that I am materially poor in God’s eyes.

You may also want to look up scrupulosity.

The cut-off is in the SERVING of mammon. Everyone knows in their own hearts how much of their time and energy is taken in acquiring possessions and in the keeping of them.

Indeed. Then, why do you assume those politicians are serving mammon? Do you know what is going on “in their own hearts?” Worry about the log in your own eye, rather than the specks in the elected politicians’ eyes.

 

[rlg94086]

Or a Catholic about JW’s. But what does any of this have to do with the price of milk; that is, how is it relevant to what I said about supporting religious freedom rather than governmental interference? IOW, I don’t understand what the intent of Robert’s question is.

The intent is to point out the absurdity of your claim that you can’t support pro-life legislation because of religious freedom.

 

[meltzerboy]

The intent is to point out the absurdity of your claim that you can’t support pro-life legislation because of religious freedom.

Not so absurd. The Ryan-Akin legislation would make NO exceptions for rape, incest, health or life of the mother, and this is part of the Republican Party platform. My own religion opposes that, and I don’t regard Judaism as a cult.

 

[Nec5]

It’s all a bit confusing. You’ve got Paul Ryan, who is a fan of Ayn Rand, which reminds us of Rand Paul, which leads to Ron Paul, and that Paul leads back to Paul Ryan. In other words:

Paul Ryan->Ayn Rand->Rand Paul->Ron Paul->Paul Ryan->Ayn Rand->Rand Paul->Ron Paul->Paul Ryan->Ayn Rand->Rand Paul->Ron Paul->Paul Ryan

Since he’s another system person like Obama and Romney, couldn’t we at least have gotten someone with a fresh name?

 

[ishii]

neither one, as I have indicated above.
.

I can see your tactic is to bombard and overwhelm with all kinds of points. I am perfectly happy to discuss your points, but let’s take them one at a time. You said you would like neither Romney nor Obama to choose the next supreme court justices - up to three possibly. So is it fair to say you think the justices given to us by Obama/Biden are pretty much the same ideologically as those that would be chosen by Romney/Ryan? Would you say that Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg are cut from the same ideological cloth too? Or do you think there are significant ideological differences between the two?

Ishii

 

[rlg94086]

Not so absurd. The Ryan-Akin legislation would make NO exceptions for rape, incest, health or life of the mother, and this is part of the Republican Party platform. My own religion opposes that, and I don’t regard Judaism as a cult.

Can you post a link to that legislation? I haven’t seen that.

As far as Judaism, does it require that you have an abortion, even if it’s illegal? Are there some religions that require complete freedom of choice on abortion? How about murder?

 

[JoeBowen7]

I am perfectly happy to discuss your points,…Ishii

The fact is that the country is in a terrible situation, economically, financially, and morally. It is easy to point fingers but the problem is that both parties are prisoner to certain interest groups and this prevents them from solving the problems that are facing the USA today. You do agree that both Democrats and Republicans have told falsehoods? Do you need explicit examples of the distortions which have come from members of both parties? Do you generally trust someone who has not told you the truth? Most people would be skeptics at this point. Suppose there are two cars, car AAA and car BBB. The ads on both cars are incredibly convincing, but in the end you decide to buy car AAA, which supposedly has a warrantee. Well, soon after you buy car AAA, the engine breaks down and you take the car to the dealer., However, the dealer informs you that this was something he did not think about at the time he sold you the car and anyway, because of the fine print, which you need a magnifying glass to read, it says that the warrantee does not cover the engine in this case. So you pay $2500 to fix it. Then a few days later the transmission breaks down. Again, you have to pay $1500 tp fix this. Then the electrical goes and you have to pay $1000. So at this point, you sell the car back to the dealer, getting only 25% of what you originally paid, and because the ads for car BBB are so good, you buy car BBB. But the same thing happens with car BBB. You look again at the ads, and the only ads which are convincing are those of car AAA and car BBB. So you then sell car BBB and buy AAA. But the same thing happens again. So you go to car BBB, etc., then back to car AAA, etc. then to car BBB. Each time you are extremely disappointed and realize that both cars are rubbish. Should you stay in this useless cycle of buying only car AAA and car BBB or should you now move on to car CCC, even though the ads of CCC are not that great? You think it over and realize that the ads of carAAA and the ads of car BBB were complete distortions, misleading and downright false. So it is time to move on to a different brand.
Similarly, haven’t we had enough of the hot air, the distortions, the misleading statements and the unfulfilled promises from the Republicans and Democrats. The time has come to move on to a third Party and to break the monopoly that the Democrats and Republicans have on the political process.

 

[meltzerboy]

Can you post a link to that legislation? I haven’t seen that.

As far as Judaism, does it require that you have an abortion, even if it’s illegal? Are there some religions that require complete freedom of choice on abortion? How about murder?

I did some fact checking on my own rather than relying on either the Democratic or Republican propaganda machines. The House Resolution 5939 bill, sponsored by Ryan and many other Congressmen, does indeed make an exception in the case of forcible rape, incest, and the life and health of the mother. However, PolitiFact (I don’t know whether they are partisan or not) says the only exception Ryan made in “other” bills that he co-sponsored, perhaps implied in the Sanctity of Life bill and his co-sponsorship of the personhood amendment, is for the endangerment of the mother’s life. It also states that while Obama is correct on the rape and incest non-exemption, he is lying with regard to his claim that Ryan makes no exemption in the case where a woman’s health or life is jeopardized.

Orthodox Judaism requires an abortion ONLY with regard to saving the mother’s life, but NOT with regard to rape and incest, whether abortion is legal or illegal. In the latter instances, abortion is permitted but not required. Reform Judaism leaves the decision up to the woman, but does not condone abortion as a casual means of birth control. The decision must involve soul-searching and not simply a matter-of-fact choice. Nonetheless, I would not put abortion in the same category as murder. I know you strongly disagree, but we’ve already had this discussion.

 

[mercytruth]

Well, then, you are worshipping mammon?

You may also want to look up scrupulosity.

Indeed. Then, why do you assume those politicians are serving mammon? Do you know what is going on “in their own hearts?” Worry about the log in your own eye, rather than the specks in the elected politicians’ eyes.

Maybe because I think St.John of the Cross was closer to the truth then most American professing Christians, which includes myself. He says that the harlot of Babylon as spoken of in the book of Revelations represents mammon. If the U.S. does not represent the pursuit of mammon, (material prosperity) then what nation is? Our economically wealthy as it now stands, elects through their campaign financing the people who govern this nation.

We are told by the Jesus Christ who sent his angel to speak to St. John, “Get out of her my people, lest you partake of her plagues” I am saying to you, as I am saying to myself, we are like the lukewarm church of Laodicea… blind and can not see, spiritually naked in our material prosperity.

Jesus says to us, "Lay not up treasures on earth, where moth and rust corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. Rather lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Most of us Americans have a houseful(s) of stuff that we treasure, and the landfills are overflowing with our stuff that we once treasured and have discarded.

This is how I see America in her pusuit of material prosperity…through the eyes of St.John of the Cross. Truly, when Jesus said that ‘the meek will inherit the earth’, he was sending us a message up front and close at home.

God have mercy on us

 

[LisaA]

Not so absurd. The Ryan-Akin legislation would make NO exceptions for rape, incest, health or life of the mother, and this is part of the Republican Party platform. My own religion opposes that, and I don’t regard Judaism as a cult.

Meltzerboy PUH-LEASE “Ryan Akin” legislation? I am truly stunned that you made such a false statement. This is EXACTLY what is wrong with the political process, the attempt to demonize a particular individual with out and out lies.

I will grant you corrected yourself ten posts later but why spread a falsehood to begin with?

NO ONE heard of Akin until he blundered into the annals of history with an equally stupid remark. But you and others, particularly in the media are now tying him to Paul Ryan as if they were Dodd and Frank. Further although there has been legislation where both mens’ names appeared, the one you referenced had TWO HUNDRED PLUS other co-sponsors.

I really despise these tactics and once again I thought you were above such partisan hyperbole. I truly despise Obama and think he has engaged in much evil. But I don’t spread lies about him.

Lisa

 

[ishii]

The fact is that the country is in a terrible situation, economically, financially, and morally. It is easy to point fingers but the problem is that both parties are prisoner to certain interest groups and this prevents them from solving the problems that are facing the USA today. You do agree that both Democrats and Republicans have told falsehoods? Do you need explicit examples of the distortions which have come from members of both parties? Do you generally trust someone who has not told you the truth? Most people would be skeptics at this point. Suppose there are two cars, car AAA and car BBB. The ads on both cars are incredibly convincing, but in the end you decide to buy car AAA, which supposedly has a warrantee. Well, soon after you buy car AAA, the engine breaks down and you take the car to the dealer., However, the dealer informs you that this was something he did not think about at the time he sold you the car and anyway, because of the fine print, which you need a magnifying glass to read, it says that the warrantee does not cover the engine in this case. So you pay $2500 to fix it. Then a few days later the transmission breaks down. Again, you have to pay $1500 tp fix this. Then the electrical goes and you have to pay $1000. So at this point, you sell the car back to the dealer, getting only 25% of what you originally paid, and because the ads for car BBB are so good, you buy car BBB. But the same thing happens with car BBB. You look again at the ads, and the only ads which are convincing are those of car AAA and car BBB. So you then sell car BBB and buy AAA. But the same thing happens again. So you go to car BBB, etc., then back to car AAA, etc. then to car BBB. Each time you are extremely disappointed and realize that both cars are rubbish. Should you stay in this useless cycle of buying only car AAA and car BBB or should you now move on to car CCC, even though the ads of CCC are not that great? You think it over and realize that the ads of carAAA and the ads of car BBB were complete distortions, misleading and downright false. So it is time to move on to a different brand.
Similarly, haven’t we had enough of the hot air, the distortions, the misleading statements and the unfulfilled promises from the Republicans and Democrats. The time has come to move on to a third Party and to break the monopoly that the Democrats and Republicans have on the political process.

Man, you’re like a broken record. I asked you a specic question - why do you insist on dodging it?

Here goes again - (I have put the question in bold type for your convenience).

You said you would like neither Romney nor Obama to choose the next supreme court justices - up to three possibly. So is it fair to say you think the justices given to us by Obama/Biden are pretty much the same ideologically as those that would be chosen by Romney/Ryan? *** Would you say that Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg are cut from the same ideological cloth too? Or do you think there are significant ideological differences between the two?***

Ishii

 

[LisaA]

The fact is that the country is in a terrible situation, economically, financially, and morally. It is easy to point fingers but the problem is that both parties are prisoner to certain interest groups and this prevents them from solving the problems that are facing the USA today. You do agree that both Democrats and Republicans have told falsehoods? \ The time has come to move on to a third Party and to break the monopoly that the Democrats and Republicans have on the political process.

Joe the fallacy of your theory that we need a third party is that it presumes that the same flawed human beings representing the third party would be more honest, more capable, more effective. And you base this on what? Has a race of angels suddenly come to earth and are now Libertarians or Constitution Party leaders?

We will always have flawed human beings involved in every endeavor of life. WE are all flawed human beings. Politicians seemingly more flawed than most…you know about the power of power to corrupt otherwise honest men. Whomever rises to the top is still going to be subject to temptations and corruption. We must discern who among the AVAILABLE real life political figures and support those who share our values rather than wait forever for the perfect candidate or party to emerge.

Isn’t there a verse about not putting your faith in princes?
Lisa

 

[_Abyssinia]

Poll: Ryan pick helps cut into Obama lead in Wis

Mitt Romney’s selection of Paul Ryan as his running mate appears to have energized some likely voters in Ryan’s home state of Wisconsin, according to a new Quinnipiac University/CBS News/New York Times poll.

As many as 31 percent of Wisconsin voters say Romney’s pick of their native son makes them more likely to support Romney in the fall, according to the survey, conducted Aug. 15-21. Fewer (22 percent) say they would be less likely to do so while 45 percent say Ryan’s selection makes no difference.

With Ryan joining Romney’s campaign, the Republican presidential candidate has gained ground in Wisconsin, where President Obama now leads by just two points, 49 percent to 47 percent. The two-point lead is within the poll’s margin of error.

“It seems like the pick of Paul Ryan has had some small beneficial effect for Mitt Romney,” Peter Brown, the assistant director of the Quinnipiac poll, told CBS News’ Bill Plante on “Face to Face”.

Referring specifically to Wisconsin, Brown added, “Obviously, it’s had some home-team effect.”

The race has tightened in Florida, where Mr. Obama is leading 49 percent to 46 percent - equal to the poll’s three-point margin of error. Romney holds a double-digit lead among seniors in the Sunshine State.

Mr. Obama has maintained his lead in Ohio, according to the poll, besting Romney 50 percent to 44 percent. The president enjoys a 13-point advantage among women and backing from young voters in Ohio, while Romney wins the support of independents and has an 8-point lead among seniors.

Few likely voters are undecided in these battleground states, and nine in 10 say their minds are made up. Only one in 10 says they could change their minds about who to support.

In all three of these battleground states, Republicans are more enthusiastic than Democrats about voting this year. Republican enthusiasm about voting has also risen from earlier this month.

cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57498579/poll-ryan-pick-helps-cut-into-obama-lead-in-wis./?tag=socsh

 

[rlg94086]

Maybe because I think St.John of the Cross was closer to the truth then most American professing Christians, which includes myself. He says that the harlot of Babylon as spoken of in the book of Revelations represents mammon. If the U.S. does not represent the pursuit of mammon, (material prosperity) then what nation is? Our economically wealthy as it now stands, elects through their campaign financing the people who govern this nation.

We are told by the Jesus Christ who sent his angel to speak to St. John, “Get out of her my people, lest you partake of her plagues” I am saying to you, as I am saying to myself, we are like the lukewarm church of Laodicea… blind and can not see, spiritually naked in our material prosperity.

Jesus says to us, "Lay not up treasures on earth, where moth and rust corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. Rather lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Most of us Americans have a houseful(s) of stuff that we treasure, and the landfills are overflowing with our stuff that we once treasured and have discarded.

This is how I see America in her pusuit of material prosperity…through the eyes of St.John of the Cross. Truly, when Jesus said that ‘the meek will inherit the earth’, he was sending us a message up front and close at home.

God have mercy on us

You are missing my points entirely. You will have no argument from me that our materialistic society leads us to develop a strong attachment to worldly things. That has nothing to do with your decision to judge others on their attachments. If you truly wish to work on your humility, then do it.

When it comes to voting, look at their stances and what they will do for the country. Don’t focus on how much money they have. That is envy and judgement, not smart voting.

 

[rlg94086]

I did some fact checking on my own rather than relying on either the Democratic or Republican propaganda machines. The House Resolution 5939 bill, sponsored by Ryan and many other Congressmen, does indeed make an exception in the case of forcible rape, incest, and the life and health of the mother. However, PolitiFact (I don’t know whether they are partisan or not) says the only exception Ryan made in “other” bills that he co-sponsored, perhaps implied in the Sanctity of Life bill and his co-sponsorship of the personhood amendment, is for the endangerment of the mother’s life. It also states that while Obama is correct on the rape and incest non-exemption, he is lying with regard to his claim that Ryan makes no exemption in the case where a woman’s health or life is jeopardized.

Orthodox Judaism requires an abortion ONLY with regard to saving the mother’s life, but NOT with regard to rape and incest, whether abortion is legal or illegal. In the latter instances, abortion is permitted but not required. Reform Judaism leaves the decision up to the woman, but does not condone abortion as a casual means of birth control. The decision must involve soul-searching and not simply a matter-of-fact choice. Nonetheless, I would not put abortion in the same category as murder. I know you strongly disagree, but we’ve already had this discussion.

Thank you for honestly looking at the legislation and determining you were wrong regarding the life of the mother. Now, we can move on.

As far as abortion/murder, that wasn’t my point. My point was that you would not allow murder for religious freedom purposes, so your religious freedom protest is bogus. All freedom has limits. We are a pluralistic society, and we place limits. We have basic rights and protections, and we all vote according to our moral viewpoint. I don’t need to vote according to someone else’s moral viewpoint.