Paul Ryan Discussion

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Whatever. Ryan admits off shore accounts are to “hide” money. that’s all I was after, someone to admit it. All this other stuff is fine and dandy. I was not arguing why they hide money off shore, wether it was right or wrong, legal or illegal. Ryan himself said it and he proved my point. That’s it. Nothing more to it.
Well in all fairness the use of “hide” was not mean to be the pejorative you infer. He could have used the word to “shelter” the money from taxes or to defer taxes until the funds are repatriated. His real point was that we can’t expect businesses to return operations or cash to the USA unless our tax system changes. It was not to claim US businesses were sneaking around or lying.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” approach, trying to find some snippet of some statement and then declaring this is a person’s philosophy. This was NOT what Paul Ryan intended to be the interpretation of this statement.

Lisa
 
Well in all fairness the use of “hide” was not mean to be the pejorative you infer. He could have used the word to “shelter” the money from taxes or to defer taxes until the funds are repatriated. His real point was that we can’t expect businesses to return operations or cash to the USA unless our tax system changes. It was not to claim US businesses were sneaking around or lying.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” approach, trying to find some snippet of some statement and then declaring this is a person’s philosophy. This was NOT what Paul Ryan intended to be the interpretation of this statement.

Lisa
I use every tax break I possibly can. Every deduction, exemption, etc., allowed by law. I pay tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes annually. If the law permits it, why not? I render unto Caesar what Caesar requires by his tax code.
 
I use every tax break I possibly can. Every deduction, exemption, etc., allowed by law. I pay tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes annually. If the law permits it, why not? I render unto Caesar what Caesar requires by his tax code.
As do the 47%!
 
As do the 47%!
I don’t blame the 47% either. If the law permits you to reduce your tax burden, so be it! I think the tax code should be revised at the upper end (reduction of breaks for the working wealthy) and the lower end (everybody should have some skin in the game).
 
Well in all fairness the use of “hide” was not mean to be the pejorative you infer. He could have used the word to “shelter” the money from taxes or to defer taxes until the funds are repatriated. His real point was that we can’t expect businesses to return operations or cash to the USA unless our tax system changes. It was not to claim US businesses were sneaking around or lying.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” approach, trying to find some snippet of some statement and then declaring this is a person’s philosophy. This was NOT what Paul Ryan intended to be the interpretation of this statement.

Lisa
Thank you, Lisa.

I fear that many people buy into the rhetoric of having money offshore as some sort of unethical, illegal thing. If current tax law allows people to do this (as long as everything is reported) then it is not illegal.

Instead of complaing about people and business “hiding money in offshore accounts” we should be doing everything necessary to encourage people to bring money back. This includes revising the tax code and our monetary policy.
 
Thank you, Lisa.

I fear that many people buy into the rhetoric of having money offshore as some sort of unethical, illegal thing. If current tax law allows people to do this (as long as everything is reported) then it is not illegal.

Instead of complaing about people and business “hiding money in offshore accounts” we should be doing everything necessary to encourage people to bring money back. This includes revising the tax code and our monetary policy.
Appreciate the sanity in response to specious claims of wrongdoing where none exists. The same people who feel it’s perfectly legitimate that there is a huge number of non-taxpayers who “take advantage” of the current tax laws consider actual taxpayers are doing something unethical even if not immoral if they also “take advantage” of the laws.

I have seen where a change in tax policy made a huge impact on our state’s economy. It used to be mostly fueled by timber and farming. However between environmental laws and high state taxes many of the timber companies left for the south and many of the farming enterprises discontinued grass seed production for less lucrative crops. The economy was in the doldrums and we had a tax law that included WORLDWIDE income. Thus many companies refused to start operations in our state. We had a very forward thinking Republican governor at the time and with the help of the legislature they reversed that law. Thus many large international high tech companies came to our state and they are among the largest employers twenty years later. Were the Federal government to provide such tax incentives to repatriate income and reduce federal taxes more companies would return to America.

Lisa
 
Well in all fairness the use of “hide” was not mean to be the pejorative you infer. He could have used the word to “shelter” the money from taxes or to defer taxes until the funds are repatriated. His real point was that we can’t expect businesses to return operations or cash to the USA unless our tax system changes. It was not to claim US businesses were sneaking around or lying.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” approach, trying to find some snippet of some statement and then declaring this is a person’s philosophy. This was NOT what Paul Ryan intended to be the interpretation of this statement.

Lisa
Ok, you prefer the word “shelter”…sure. That’ll work. I am with you on the tiresome “gotcha” tactics used. In this case I believe it was necessary. And it worked. These accounts are used as tax havens. There will be no more denying it because of this clip! That’s the thing…it works. To expose the truth or to mislead with lies…well, that’s for the American people to discern.

Again, I urge everyone to look up the facts about the 2009 Amnesty Bill.

The whole thing that brought this up for me was, the complete disdain for people on government assistance yet, this behavior is perfectly acceptable.
I think the American people are tired of hearing how hard it is for billionaires. It’s an old line and people aren’t buying it.
 
Ok, you prefer the word “shelter”…sure. That’ll work. I am with you on the tiresome “gotcha” tactics used. In this case I believe it was necessary. And it worked. These accounts are used as tax havens. There will be no more denying it because of this clip! That’s the thing…it works. To expose the truth or to mislead with lies…well, that’s for the American people to discern.

Again, I urge everyone to look up the facts about the 2009 Amnesty Bill.

The whole thing that brought this up for me was, the complete disdain for people on government assistance yet, this behavior is perfectly acceptable.
I think the American people are tired of hearing how hard it is for billionaires. It’s an old line and people aren’t buying it.
No one denies there are tax havens or tax shelters. So what…as I’ve said before if the American people don’t like the laws then write your congressman. To infer there is something shady about following the law is simply dishonest.

People don’t have disdain for those on government assistance who actually NEED it, we have disdain for able bodied people who take advantage of what was intended for the needy. There isn’t enough to help those truly in need, partly because there are people who know how to game the system. When we have over 80000 people going on disability in one month and that exceeds the number getting jobs, there is something wrong with the system.

Everything is up under Obama, food stamps, welfare, disability, unemployment yet the recession supposedly ended in 09. Tell me how that works…

Lisa
 
I don’t blame the 47% either. If the law permits you to reduce your tax burden, so be it! I think the tax code should be revised at the upper end (reduction of breaks for the working wealthy) and the lower end (everybody should have some skin in the game).
I have dedicated my life to putting as many people into the 47% as I can. my complaint in this area is those in the 47% that are constantly whining about those who actually pay income taxes as not paying their fair share
 
Appreciate the sanity in response to specious claims of wrongdoing where none exists. The same people who feel it’s perfectly legitimate that there is a huge number of non-taxpayers who “take advantage” of the current tax laws consider actual taxpayers are doing something unethical even if not immoral if they also “take advantage” of the laws.

I have seen where a change in tax policy made a huge impact on our state’s economy. It used to be mostly fueled by timber and farming. However between environmental laws and high state taxes many of the timber companies left for the south and many of the farming enterprises discontinued grass seed production for less lucrative crops. The economy was in the doldrums and we had a tax law that included WORLDWIDE income. Thus many companies refused to start operations in our state. We had a very forward thinking Republican governor at the time and with the help of the legislature they reversed that law. Thus many large international high tech companies came to our state and they are among the largest employers twenty years later. Were the Federal government to provide such tax incentives to repatriate income and reduce federal taxes more companies would return to America.

Lisa
And let me guess, tax revenues are up as well.
 
No one denies there are tax havens or tax shelters. So what…as I’ve said before if the American people don’t like the laws then write your congressman. To infer there is something shady about following the law is simply dishonest.

People don’t have disdain for those on government assistance who actually NEED it, we have disdain for able bodied people who take advantage of what was intended for the needy. There isn’t enough to help those truly in need, partly because there are people who know how to game the system. When we have over 80000 people going on disability in one month and that exceeds the number getting jobs, there is something wrong with the system.

Everything is up under Obama, food stamps, welfare, disability, unemployment yet the recession supposedly ended in 09. Tell me how that works…

Lisa
You are correct. I have more sympathy for the people that are truly needy government assistance than those who have been given free/cheap food, clothing, housing, education, etc. and yet still aren’t pulling their fair share when there is nothing physically/mentally wrong with them.

Even the local grocery store chain even hires people with developmental disabilities to push carts in from the parking lot.
 
And let me guess, tax revenues are up as well.
Yes because as Marco Rubio said we don’t need more TAXES we need more taxpayers! That’s why I don’t understand the demonization of businesses as parasitic or unethical or greedy when in fact we NEED these businesses to employ our people. A paycheck is better for the person and better for the state than more welfare programs.

Having these big companies come in not only added to the corporate income tax paid but also provided many well paying jobs and those people pay state income taxes. Because our state had been dependent on very cyclical businesses such as farming, fishing and timber, our unemployment had always been substantially higher than much of the nation. While it’s still high it’s no longer leading the nation and it’s thanks to Intel, HP, etc.

Lisa
 
Well in all fairness the use of “hide” was not mean to be the pejorative you infer. He could have used the word to “shelter” the money from taxes or to defer taxes until the funds are repatriated. His real point was that we can’t expect businesses to return operations or cash to the USA unless our tax system changes. It was not to claim US businesses were sneaking around or lying.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” approach, trying to find some snippet of some statement and then declaring this is a person’s philosophy. This was NOT what Paul Ryan intended to be the interpretation of this statement.

Lisa
Indeed. This is what folks who do not understand the tax system in our country and are pea green with envy (capital sin) over others successes. Romney has said he wants to revamp the tax code and so has Ryan. Obama has even given lip service to this, but that is what it is. The Dems will never ever vote to make the tax code more fair. They lose their control over the masses if they do.
 
You are correct. I have more sympathy for the people that are truly needy government assistance than those who have been given free/cheap food, clothing, housing, education, etc. and yet still aren’t pulling their fair share when there is nothing physically/mentally wrong with them.

Even the local grocery store chain even hires people with developmental disabilities to push carts in from the parking lot.
You stated the problem correctly, CG25.
 
No one denies there are tax havens or tax shelters.
I beg to differ. I could go back in the thread and point out many denials.
Well, i dont know Lisa. I’m not defending Obama. I’m just very critical of Romney 🙂 I dont agree with Obama on many issues, I don’t blame him for everything under the sun either. Bottom line, the strategy of the right is not working. If Republicans lose this election it will not be because people are just so happy with Obama.
 
Businesses - run by people - aren’t simply unbiased, ethical enterprises, LisaA.

They are profit driven. And lets not obscure that fact. Is profit or the goal of profit bad? No. But lets not portray businesses as some benevolent thing collectively seeking the betterment of man like Jesus or a Mother Teresa. For the sake of “just doing business” more than one businessman or corporation might get into bed with mafioso, dictator, African strongman, or cast the American Stars and Stripes aside in Detroit to create “tax payers” in communist China or Vietnam.

There are plenty of people that would like to work on the North side of Milwaukee but big businesses have largely picked up and abandoned that side of town long ago. Few have come to take there place. And no… just filling out a job application does not result in a job. It’s an employers paradise out here. What… maybe 200 applicants for one position?

Mind you… some of these factories don’t mind training Mexican immigrants for their factory jobs (like foundries) even though many of these men can’t speak English. Guess that contradicts the polemic of “the need of high school diploma.” I know because I helped some Mexicans write out their application at the same time I was filling out an application at a South side foundry years ago. So, in other words the two gentleman could not write in English (again, contradicting the complaint of businessmen, "Americans don’t have the high school diploma or the training or experience) Not sure I ever ran into a Mexican working at that company (I never got the job) that could speak English. But companies invest in and get around that hurdle by hiring one or more overseers that are bilingual. And I’m not mad at the Mexicans. They are hard workers and only looking to better themselves and or the lives of their families.

But let’s loom at the United States as it is probably midway between the states of the United Kingdom and Brazil in terms of cash transfer programs and welfare states.

In the United Kingdom able bodied, working age, males that become unemployable due to drug addiction can join a waiting list for free government financed housing and free food assistance.

Not even the Democrats in the U.S. would swing for that in the U.S. - not to mention it is extremely difficult to get put on disability in the U.S., with only certain conditions automatically approved once claim filed (e.g., renal disease, bipolar disorder). I know someone that was beaten and left for dead in the cold Milwaukee winter. Suffering multiple seizures in the hospital. He could barely walk for months - maybe over a year - after being discharged from the hospital. He was denied temporary disability payment the first time he applied. And that was with his older sister who worked at the Social Security office helping him fill out his claim and submit it. Ironically, you can fake bipolar disorder (we both know someone that did this) and get put on disability in the U.S.

Gaining employment in the U.S. - a capitalist society - is comparative. So, the question “can you work by picking up a phone” is just about meaningless. The question ought be can you compete among the best or even the average American for job X, Y, Z?

Then we have Brazil before Lula with his Abraham Lincoln-like rise to the presidency of his country. Essentially, the state had large swaths of urban territory (and rural as well) it had abandoned. No services and the police operated like military raiders into hostile, foreign territory. In other words they made lighting strikes into favela X for suspects A, B, and C and then immediately withdrew. They did not have police posts and stations permanently set up like we do in the U.S. inner-cities. Today that has changed in a number of favelas of Rio de Janeiro (one city) as it prepares and invests in the city for the Olympics.

In terms of negative externalities I would say the old Brazilian model is far less favorable than the United Kingdom model.

The United States also has a huge - very huge - gun violence problem in which very few victims of shootings result in homicides. There 360 days in a year. In one year in the medium sized city (and by far not the most violent of U.S. cities) of Milwaukee alone, over 800 people were shot in which only 100 or so resulted in a homicide. Over 30,000 Americans are shot every year in the United States and if it were not for our advances in medical trauma care since the end of the Vietnam War (which learned on the streets of America has been exported to the battle fields of Iraq and Afghanistan to save lives - consequently troops have survived traumatic injuries that would have killed them in the Vietnam War) the U.S. would have around 60,000 homicides a year.

My point is those traumatic injuries from bullets often result in anything from temporary disability to life long disability. It’s not uncommon in American cities to see young black males rolling around on street corners confined to wheel chairs.
 
Businesses - run by people - aren’t simply unbiased, ethical enterprises, LisaA.

They are profit driven. And lets not obscure that fact. Is profit or the goal of profit bad? No. But lets not portray businesses as some benevolent thing collectively seeking the betterment of man like Jesus or a Mother Teresa.
My point is those traumatic injuries from bullets often result in anything from temporary disability to life long disability. It’s not uncommon in American cities to see young black males rolling around on street corners confined to wheel chairs.
Well I did wade through your entire post and my response is you obviously didn’t read MY posts since I never said, suggested, inferred or claimed businesses were anything but profit driven. Where in the world did you come to that erroneous conclusion? That was my whole point in the discussion with respect to outsourcing and the migration of our manufacturing sector overseas, most notably to China.

You’re going to have to tell me where you came to that strange conclusion. I am a proud supporter of the free market but in no way do I think most businesses are charitable enterprises.

Lisa
 
Well, i dont know Lisa. I’m not defending Obama. I’m just very critical of Romney 🙂 I dont agree with Obama on many issues, I don’t blame him for everything under the sun either. Bottom line, the strategy of the right is not working. If Republicans lose this election it will not be because people are just so happy with Obama.
What strategy do you suggest? \

Every itty bitty thing that comes out of Repub’s mouths is repeated over and over and over. This morning on NPR, they again brought up Todd Akin’s faux pas.

Biden’s gaffes - go away after one day. Obama’s “you didn’t build that” perpetuated among conservatives as a joke. Addressed on NPR as “Well, Republicans are saying, but what Obama really meant.”

It’s sickening.

throwup 🙂
 
Well I did wade through your entire post and my response is you obviously didn’t read MY posts since I never said, suggested, inferred or claimed businesses were anything but profit driven. Where in the world did you come to that erroneous conclusion? That was my whole point in the discussion with respect to outsourcing and the migration of our manufacturing sector overseas, most notably to China.

You’re going to have to tell me where you came to that strange conclusion. I am a proud supporter of the free market but in no way do I think most businesses are charitable enterprises.

Lisa
A lot of businesses give heavily to charities. But of course Chik-f-la was demonized because they gave to charities unapproved by the left. 😉
 
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