Paul Ryan!!

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I agree with this part:
my experience has been that middle class or even non-marginalized poor people have little real concept of what it is to live beyond the margins of society. So while there may be food and many places to find it, I have no basis on which to assume that the needy in all geographic locations, all have access to food pantries.
Also, it’s important that while food pantries provides and food distribution programs provide some needs, the quality of the food (I don’t mean “tastiness”) is sometimes greatly lacking, and in general the nutrition is insufficient, both for children and for adults. It beats total starvation, but it is not anything approaching a long-term solution. (Just like virtually everyone understands that Unemployment Benefits are not a way of life.) My county has both a food pantry and distribution programs, but the latter can be bureaucratic nightmares to navigate. (Again, you need to “prove” need, and the response time between inquiry and receipt is hardly instant. And those distribution locations and time frames are infrequent and not totally reliable.)

However, I must say that there’s a certain level of toxic (as in “intoxication”) attraction for those poor who are recent immigrants, especially those illegally here, who make assumptions both positive and negative. I have a neighbor, for example, who has become locally legendary for bad decisions. She is the mother in a family of 5 (3 kids). When one sees that she and husband struggle to pay the rent each month for the 3 years they have been renting locally, one would think it’s her very low level of skills which is responsible for that (meaning that there’s one lower-middle-class wage earner in the family – her husband, with a spouse who contributes minimally relative to the high cost of housing in my area, the fixed costs of utilities, registration fees, insurance). Several things are happening, though:

~She is living beyond her means. The family could never afford their apartment, ever, and they still can’t – as the kids grow and have increasing needs which children/teens have.
~She is constantly in a state of desperation, so she makes bad choices. Unable to afford engaging child care for her young son while she goes off to work at low-paying part-time jobs, she instead buys him expensive toys, not to mention junk food which he eats out of boredom (and he is now obese). I don’t know if this has affected their food budget (it doesn’t seem to), but clearly her frequent bad decisions have compromised other essentials of daily living (i.e., housing).
~She mirrors what happens to many poor people, including many poor immigrants, and is a phenomenon which is not new: the lure of materialism and the expectation that a signal of “success” and even a “path” to success is the purchase of optional items, whether those purchases are prudent or dangerous. “Having stuff” is a membership card, according to myth, into the middle class. Except that it isn’t. Solvency, living within one’s means, and possibly options to improve one’s finances, is a truer understanding of the practical (not the financial) definition of the middle class.

So what I’m really suggesting is that there is a connection in this country between materialism, as a cultural norm, and poverty. (That’s not the only effect of materialism! Just one.) The poor, the middle class, and the rich, can and do sometimes spend themselves into primary or aggravated poverty.

The sad footnote to this is that the woman I am referring to is selling the child’s expensive bikes – as well as completely unnecessary items like a treadmill which I can’t afford, lol, a flat screen TV, and various pieces of attractive furniture, so that she can maybe afford the rent next month.
 
propaganda. if you work for a living you are paying twice as much in income tax as someone who makes the same amount of income from wealth. and the worker pays payroll tax on top of that. Under Romney’s plan he will pay even less. hmmm
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

The wealthy are paying taxes again on money they have already paid taxes on which they chose to invest.

Repeat this 10 times to yourself 😃
 
propaganda. if you work for a living you are paying twice as much in income tax as someone who makes the same amount of income from wealth. and the worker pays payroll tax on top of that. Under Romney’s plan he will pay even less. hmmm
Taxes on “wealth” Capital Gains tax and dividends are taxed twice. Taxes are pre-dividend on the corporation and then on the individual who receives the dividend.

Are you suggesting that the dividend recipient should pay SS taxes on his dividend in addition? I wouldn’t like that and it would discourage me from further investing my my future.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

The wealthy are paying taxes again on money they have already paid taxes on which they chose to invest.

Repeat this 10 times to yourself 😃
Our tax system is so byzantine, you can blame people who don’t understand how it works. 🤷
 
How much income taxes should be levied on income from wealth?

Let’s say you work at a high salary and save all your money. You pay income taxes on it every year and save as much of the rest as you can. You’ve already paid taxes on that income. Now, if you get interest income, you pay taxes on it again. The savings just keeps shrinking. But if you put it all under the mattress, it earns no interest. If you’ve got a million dollars hidden under the mattress should you pay income tax on that?

A corporation earns income and then pays income tax on it. What’s left can be reinvested in the company, or paid out to stockholders, who own the company and have a claim on its earnings. So the corporation pays out a big dividend of money that’s already been taxed. Now the dividends get taxed again to the shareholder.

The shareholder puts the dividends in the bank, and they earn interest. Now he’ll pay taxes yet again on money that’s already been taxed twice. How often should this money be taxed?
 
Our tax system is so byzantine, you can blame people who don’t understand how it works. 🤷
Agreed-but you sure do see a lot of people making silly statements about an area they dont even have a basic understanding of. One of the biggest problems is the failure to understand the difference between marginal rates and effective rates.
 
How much income taxes should be levied on income from wealth?

Let’s say you work at a high salary and save all your money. You pay income taxes on it every year and save as much of the rest as you can. You’ve already paid taxes on that income. Now, if you get interest income, you pay taxes on it again. The savings just keeps shrinking. But if you put it all under the mattress, it earns no interest. If you’ve got a million dollars hidden under the mattress should you pay income tax on that?

A corporation earns income and then pays income tax on it. What’s left can be reinvested in the company, or paid out to stockholders, who own the company and have a claim on its earnings. So the corporation pays out a big dividend of money that’s already been taxed. Now the dividends get taxed again to the shareholder.

The shareholder puts the dividends in the bank, and they earn interest. Now he’ll pay taxes yet again on money that’s already been taxed twice. How often should this money be taxed?
To say nothing of the fact that investing in our economy is a good thing. This is what Pres. Obama seems to be missing. He calls taxes an “investment.” It’s not the same thing.
 
I just saw your post, hang around for a minute and I’ll see if I can find it for you. Yes, I actually saw Obama sitting at a table surrounded with republicans asking for their ideas and stating several times he was serious about working together with them on this health care bill. I remember it’s when McCain was getting sassy with him because he was still mad HE wasn’t the president.
m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=ofWahDMEMJs

there ya go, enjoy!
 
Agreed-but you sure do see a lot of people making silly statements about an area they dont even have a basic understanding of. One of the biggest problems is the failure to understand the difference between marginal rates and effective rates.
😉
 
Our tax system is so byzantine, you can blame people who don’t understand how it works. 🤷
This is true.

However, it has been explained in this thread at least twice (by me).

I appreciate the calming down, though :o
 
man you guys are great at spinning things. are you sure you’re not an imposter working for the Romney campain? ok, take away entitlements and END the bush era tax cuts. ending the cuts is kinda like raising them back up. It will save 2 trillion dollars we don’t have. how can republicans, with a straight face, lecture about spending?
WHERE ON EARTH do you get the 2 Trillion figure?

The “Buffet Rule” would raise $36 billion in revenue a year. Even the most rosy analysis is only $50 billion per year. With a defecit increasing $3.9 million PER DAY, what does paying the deficit FOR 10 DAYS or so do?

And even the most ardent Keneysian doesn’t support raising taxes on anyone in the middle of a huge recession (unless you are a committed lefty like Krugman).

It’s posts like this that make me worry about our nation’s financial future.
 
This is true.

However, it has been explained in this thread at least twice (by me).

I appreciate the calming down, though :o
I know. Lot’s of things have been explained. It doesn’t prevent posters like Bellasbane to keep coming back with the same charges.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

The wealthy are paying taxes again on money they have already paid taxes on which they chose to invest.

Repeat this 10 times to yourself 😃
Uggggggggg…those poor rich guys. Please check out post 1708. that’s where this conversation will end up anyway.
 
WHERE ON EARTH do you get the 2 Trillion figure?

The “Buffet Rule” would raise $36 billion in revenue a year. Even the most rosy analysis is only $50 billion per year. With a defecit increasing $3.9 million PER DAY, what does paying the deficit FOR 10 DAYS or so do?

And even the most ardent Keneysian doesn’t support raising taxes on anyone in the middle of a huge recession (unless you are a committed lefty like Krugman).

It’s posts like this that make me worry about our nation’s financial future.
Good thing us peeps who cling to our guns and religion are the more likely to vote. 😉
 
“encourages households to overextend themselves”??? “funnels capital from the production side of the economy to consumption”

Who builds homes?
Building a home is like giving a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If there were no mortgage deduction we would own smaller homes, and we could then use that money to build a factory that would feed people for days. The mortgage interest deduction encourages people to overinvest in housing.
It also encourages home ownership, which is obviously bad.
You know the “pride in ownership” thingy.
I never said home ownership was bad, although the smartest man I ever knew never owned a house in his life. For him it wasn’t worth the hassle, so was that a bad thing? No, it is an individual decision and the government has no business involved in that decision one way or another.

Also, Canada has no mortgage deduction and their home ownership rate is about the same as ours. What the mortgage deduction appears to have done is not increased ownership rates, but increased the size of houses people own.
And since when is a standard deduction a “loophole”? A loophole would be filing for divorce in a foriegn country to file as “single”, because the marital status only applies to the last day of the tax year.
A legitimate personal or business deduction a “loophole” does not make.
Who says the mortgage deduction is legitimate? Is it any more legitimate than farm price supports?
 
Uggggggggg…those poor rich guys. Please check out post 1708. that’s where this conversation will end up anyway.
You can believe what you wish, obviously.

What you can not do is suggest a falsehood. The rich are paying more than their share. To suggest that they need to pay the full income tax rate again, when they have already paid it, is to suggest what almost amounts to theft. And I am going to call you on it.
 
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