Payment for the remission of sin?

[PJM]

=ConstantineTG;7526737]Its just a term when the word payment is used. The truth of the matter is we’ve sinned and to get back to be with God, we have to do what it takes to be with God. Imagine doing something wrong with your spouse. Do you think buying her a diamond ring is enough? Not really, although its a good gesture to show your sincerity. But for most people who have enough money, thats nothing. What God wants is we love Him back, and thats the payment he’s talking about. When we do something wrong we detach ourselves from God. God still loves us, but love is a bridge built from both sides. God never ceases from loving us, but we cease from loving Him. Payment is used as a term because it means we have to do something to get back with God, because love cannot love if only one side is loving. We have to love back, we have to do something.

I suspect the “REPAYMENT” makes the issue a bit clearer.

There are TWO issues regarding sin that must be addressed by us. One. Confession and Forgiveness as described and REQUIRED by God in [John 20:15-19], this has ben often discussed.

Th second issue that MUST be addresed and remitted, is the “latent” effects of sin. Sin aways has a “public nature” combined with it. This means that there has to be a “making right” for the harm done by our sins.

Take stealing as an example. SURE the sin must be Confessed to be forgiven; BUT also what was taken MUST BE REPAID.

Here’s another example; adultry. This Grevious Mortal sin in addition to requiring TRUE repentance; and Cnfession, requires a commitment to not do it again. To also as much as possible get forgiveness from one’s Spouce and the person involved in the affair. And if that person was marrid; it MIGHT even require forgiveness from them. IFthis is for some reason impossible; then prayers for them migh be given as a pennance;or perhaps donating some time to a good cause? ut always an everytime; the ar we hve caused by our sins requires some positive action to “make it rightagain.”

From the Catholic Catechism:

**1488 **To the eyes of faith no evil is graver than sin and nothing has worse consequences for sinners themselves, for the Church, and for the whole world.

**1491 **The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.

This issue of a neceassary pay-back to make ammends is the primary cause and reason for PURGATORY. If one does not make full restituation in the Eyes of God, for our sins; such a person MUST be “perfected” in order to be given access to heaven. This applies to Catholics an non-catholics alike. This is aften accomplished by acts of charity as well as prayers, an personal sacrifices.

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Carlan]

DP,

I briefly perused the comments but I don’t know if your question has been answered.

Back to Genesis 3, when Adam (and Eve) disobeyed God, they were deprived of the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:22). Without the access to the fruit from the Tree of Life, man dies. God placed a fiery sword and a cherubim to guard the Tree (v.24). T

Christ restores the Tree of Life. Through Christ, we have eternal life. His Cross becomes the new Tree of Life and His Body is the fruit. We eat of His Body and we gain eternal life. Through obedience (and Baptism), we are united to Christ and through Christ and His Body, we gain eternal life.

Sin is disobedience to God. If we disobey God, we die. Christ pays for the penalty of our disobedience through His death. So, through His new covenant, we are baptized into Him and with obedience, we remain in Him (per John 15). Our sins are nailed to the cross and we are born anew so that we can rise with Him in the Resurrection.

Does that make sense?

Just one thing though, If mortal disobedience occurs after baptism, there must be repentance and absolution in order to be retored to God’s favor. Peace, Carlan

 

[theden]

Just one thing though, If mortal disobedience occurs after baptism, there must be repentance and absolution in order to be retored to God’s favor. Peace, Carlan

Carlan,

Amen Brother! If we are disobedient, per Scripture, we receive God’s wrath (John 3:36). We must remain obedient to Christ to remain in Him. If we are disobedient, we leave the Body of Christ (ie the Church) and must be reconciled to His Body before we can even receive the Eucharist.

In Him, we are saved.

Peace,

Dennis

 

[davidv]

ConstantineTG
thanks for the reply

Not to get into a theological discussion on the matter. Say as you please, but God’s Choice is the only choice that matters. For the result is the Judgement, that is God’s Choice. There will be many that would chose to be in the Light of God, if they only knew.

Lord have Mercy on the children of men.

If God’s choice is all the matters, how can we disobey Him?

 

[DPMartin]

If God’s choice is all the matters, how can we disobey Him?

David

thanks for the reply and a most excellent question.

---

By believing that God’s Word is not sufficient.

Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

God’s Word is sufficient for the universe to be and do. Therefor the universe does not disobey. God’s Word is sufficient for the heavens to be, the earth to be, the life that is yielded on the earth to be. Therefore the earth the heavens do not disobey. But mankind?

The Ten Commandments alone are sufficient to rase nations that base their law and justice systems thereon.

---

By not trusting the Word of God first.

Prov:14:15: The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Prov:14:18: The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

Adam and Eve didn’t believe God’s Word was sufficient, and did not trust His Word first, for they agreed to something else that was not of God’s Word. And there eyes where open to the fact that they where with out the Lord their God. And seen shame, guilt and the desire to blame. And hid themselves from the Presence of the Voice of the Lord.

---

And if the Lord God says chose Life and Blessing then that would be His Choice for us wouldn’t it? For it is His instruction unto us.

All bow before Him in the knowing of His Presence, obedient or not. But what is it that makes a man stand upright before Him?

 

[PJM]

=ConstantineTG;7526745]He can’t restore us to Him if we do not choose that for ourselves. God has done so much, even giving His Son up for us. And yet, that is not enough because we have free will and we still have to do our part.

Excellent responce! Thanks,

***Let us not forget that God is “All Good things Perfected” therefore EVERY Good Option is available to God.

Being Perfect, God chooses “The Best POSSIBLE WAY.”

The REASON God choose as He did, has to do with God honoring the way He Created every humman being: with a mind, intellect and freewill; so that we could FREELY choose to Know, Love and Serve Him; or NOT!

God Bless,
Pat***

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

Sorry I don’t think a Catholic priest has to intercede for my sins when what Jesus has done on the Cross is sufficient. “It is done”. And to declare the authority therein when the Pope who was a theologian of passed and is a scholar of scripture kneels in public streets before lifeless statues, images made by the hands of man and prays to it. Thus teaching others to do the same by example. No need to show scripture upon scripture upon scripture upon scripture plus commandment, were that is not kosher with the Lord our God. There is no excuse nor explanation nor reason, that would be right, or correct. This not to accuse my friend, it’s just the facts, that are demonstrated publically.

. . .
Catholic Priests might reach out to lifeless statues and be authorities therein by there own demonstrations thereof. Which is their choice. But I do believe it is God’s Choice that we are to reach out to Him, the Living God who says He is at hand. You know, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Not some far away place, and out of reach.

Can you say that the Apostles prayed Intercessory prayer, you bet ya they did, but they walk with and in the Presence of the Living God, and had no need for statues, nor would do such a thing.

Therefore how can it be that those who pray before statues be sent by the Lord Jesus Christ?

I’m surprised no one has spoken to this, DP, but you are in fact in error in this regard and are actually doing what is called “poisoning the well” when it comes to discoursing here among Catholics whose (name removed by moderator)ut you can easily dismiss as unreliable because of the religious practices of the Catholic faithful, including the Pope. This is, of course, a subject that should be addressed in another thread, so if you would like to have a discussion - without making accusations - then please begin such a thread.

 

[Carlan]

I’m surprised no one has spoken to this, DP, but you are in fact in error in this regard and are actually doing what is called “poisoning the well” when it comes to discoursing here among Catholics whose (name removed by moderator)ut you can easily dismiss as unreliable because of the religious practices of the Catholic faithful, including the Pope. This is, of course, a subject that should be addressed in another thread, so if you would like to have a discussion - without making accusations - then please begin such a thread.

Goodness , I guess I was off somewhere, I missed that post FCEGM.
DP is suddenly way off base… some where out in left field, It does not even sound like him. I’m afraid I don’t get him all of a sudden, Peace, Carlan

G

 

[jlhargus]

Since God is Almighty, and can do as He pleases. And can take from, and give to, as He sees fit, of which there is nothing that can stop Him from doing so. Why did He require payment for the remission of sin, in order to be in His Presence?

JL: Well God became man and paid the dept himself, not a bad deal for us at all. Actually he was the only one who could pay the price. No man but God could satisfy such a debt. He not only paid the price but adopted us as his very own children and heirs, that we might live in his house for ever.

 

[PJM]

=jlhargus;7532664]JL: Well God became man and paid the dept himself, not a bad deal for us at all. Actually he was the only one who could pay the price. No man but God could satisfy such a debt. He not only paid the price but adopted us as his very own children and heirs, that we might live in his house for ever.

From the Catholic perspective, supported by the Bible; the debt Christ paid was to overcome the Original Sins of Adam and Eve. Thus once again making heaven a possibility.

It does NOT forgive all sins, for all time. What Christ accomplishd is humanities Redeemption; NOT humanities salvation, which is an on-going process, requireing according to God’ plan; our co-operation and assent. Thus God gives us a mind, intellect and freewill t chose or deny Him as our personal choice.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[DPMartin]

I’m surprised no one has spoken to this, DP, but you are in fact in error in this regard and are actually doing what is called “poisoning the well” when it comes to discoursing here among Catholics whose (name removed by moderator)ut you can easily dismiss as unreliable because of the religious practices of the Catholic faithful, including the Pope. This is, of course, a subject that should be addressed in another thread, so if you would like to have a discussion - without making accusations - then please begin such a thread.

FCEGM

thanks for the reply

This is the posting that was responded to:

Originally Posted by PJM
Any and EVERY action and decission that conforms to the Divine Will of God, is found pleasing to Him. The opposit is also true.

That is precisely why it is CRITICAL that ALL personal decisions that relate to the topics of Christian Faith and Morals; MUST in an absolute sense conform to Catholic Church teaching. [John 14: 8-10; John 17: 15-19, and of course Matt. 16:19], all state and confirm God’s Personal mandates for this.

As to the remission of sin. The NT fulfills AND perfects OT practices where priest were used in a intecessory role for the forgiveness of sins. In the entire BIIBLE God’s determines what forms He [God] will accept.

Articulated here is therefore God’s take on the topic:

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

This is the Norm as set by God Himself for the forgivness of sins. Any one not accepting it does so at the GREAT risk of there personal salvation.

Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matt.19: 17 "And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

God Bless,
Pat

Pat

To imply that my personal salivation is dependent on my communication to a Catholic Priest and then quote:

Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Is this is a court of law where the prosecutor demands the answer he wants truth or not, when he makes a statement that condemns those who are not Catholic Practicing the Religion of Catholicism. In such cases, most of the time, the accuser is more guilty then the accused.

Besides I wasn’t the one to bring it up. If it’s Catholic Practice to condemn those who are not Catholic, then don’t expect a thank you in return. If being nasty to those that don’t trust the Catholic Church, and would rather trust the Word of God first is the way of teaching. What would you expect?

There’s old saying that was used in a movie once, don’t pee don’t my back and tell me it’s raining.

 

[DPMartin]

JL: Well God became man and paid the dept himself, not a bad deal for us at all. Actually he was the only one who could pay the price. No man but God could satisfy such a debt. He not only paid the price but adopted us as his very own children and heirs, that we might live in his house for ever.

jlhargus
thank for the reminder

Yes your right about that, thank God, and the Blessed Lord Jesus that He knows, and is the Way.

 

[FCEGM]

FCEGM

. . .To imply that my personal salivation is dependent on my communication to a Catholic Priest and then quote:

Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Is this is a court of law where the prosecutor demands the answer he wants truth or not, when he makes a statement that condemns those who are not Catholic Practicing the Religion of Catholicism. In such cases, most of the time, the accuser is more guilty then the accused.

Besides I wasn’t the one to bring it up. If it’s Catholic Practice to condemn those who are not Catholic, then don’t expect a thank you in return. If being nasty to those that don’t trust the Catholic Church, and would rather trust the Word of God first is the way of teaching. What would you expect?

There’s old saying that was used in a movie once, don’t pee don’t my back and tell me it’s raining.

I think you are reading far too much into PJM’s response; he isn’t condemning you or anyone else who isn’t a Catholic, but simply stating the scriptural evidence for Catholic belief regarding the priesthood. I don’t think quoting scripture is necessarily a sign of being nasty to those who might disagree with how the scripture is to be understood. You chose to take it that way and then launched into a very specific attack on the Catholic Church regarding its use of statues. As I said, this is would be a subject for another thread, so if you want to discuss this please begin one by asking a question, not by starting off with the accusatory tone you took on the subject.

 

[jlhargus]

JL: Well God became man and paid the dept himself, not a bad deal for us at all. Actually he was the only one who could pay the price. No man but God could satisfy such a debt. He not only paid the price but adopted us as his very own children and heirs, that we might live in his house for ever.

From the Catholic perspective, supported by the Bible; the debt Christ paid was to overcome the Original Sins of Adam and Eve. Thus once again making heaven a possibility.

It does NOT forgive all sins, for all time. What Christ accomplishd is humanities Redeemption; NOT humanities salvation, which is an on-going process, requireing according to God’ plan; our co-operation and assent. Thus God gives us a mind, intellect and freewill t chose or deny Him as our personal choice. God Bless,
Pat

JL: PJM, you have misunderstood my post, I did not say it forgives ALL SINS, FOR ALL TIME. I will try to clarify for you and anyone else who may have gotten the wrong impression A baptized infant receives remission of origninal sin by receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. Infants have no actual sins from which to repent or to be forgiven. A non-Christain adult must repent be baptized for remission of sins and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Then the adult convert is forgiven original sin and ALL SINS to that point. If they sin after baptism they must repent and confess their sins and are forgiven ALL their sins to that point and ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. Yet one must do penance to reapir the damage caused, called TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. Baptism forgives both eternal and temporal punishment. Confession forgives eternal punishment. No sin or punishment is forgiven apart from the dept Christ paid.

 

[PJM]

":

DPMartin, post:51, topic:227834"]
FCEGM

thanks for the reply

This is the posting that was responded to:

To imply that my personal salivation is dependent on my communication to a Catholic Priest and then quote:

HIGHLIGHTED by Pat [PJM]

Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Is this is a court of law where the prosecutor demands the answer he wants truth or not, when he makes a statement that condemns those who are not Catholic Practicing the Religion of Catholicism. In such cases, most of the time, the accuser is more guilty then the accused.

Besides I wasn’t the one to bring it up. If it’s Catholic Practice to condemn those who are not Catholic, then don’t expect a thank you in return. If being nasty to those that don’t trust the Catholic Church, and would rather trust the Word of God first is the way of teaching. What would you expect?

There’s old saying that was used in a movie once, don’t pee don’t my back and tell me it’s raining.

My dear friend in Christ; you give me far too much credit. What I expresed is from the Bible; I simply parroted the message for you and others. As one "who trust the WORD of God; you ought to find this meaningful?

**1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
**
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he[Jesus] had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he [Jesus] had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

**“ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." **

I’ll repeat “my postion” for the sake of clairity and charity. All Salvation must flow thrpugh the Catholic church as 1. It is the only Church founded, not by man, but by God Himself**.[Matt. 16:15-19]**COLOR=“red”] 2.Becaue the CC gave to the world the Bible. having collected the OT and as the NT was 100% authored by men known today to have been Catholics. 3. ONLy the CC has BOTH the Holy Spirit “FOREVER” … John.14 Verses 16 to 17 " And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you". John 14: 16-17; and John 17:14-19 “I [Jesus] have given them thy [Petr, the Apostles and my Catholic Church] word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **And for their sake [my Catholic Church] I [Jesus] consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” **… NO OTHER FAITH CAN MAKE IN TRUTH THIS CLAIM. …

Because ALL of The Sacraments were Instituted by Christ for His CC; non-Catholic Baptisms are necessarly connected to Her. And as the beleif in the Trinity began with Christ CC, so too are non-Catholic Faiths holding the same view connected to Her [The CC], and Therefore ALL SALVATION flows from Christ; to His Bride" the CC.

Please note that all of this is Biblical at least by implication; if not expressly stated.

Thanks for your post!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[DPMartin]

I think you are reading far too much into PJM’s response; he isn’t condemning you or anyone else who isn’t a Catholic, but simply stating the scriptural evidence for Catholic belief regarding the priesthood. I don’t think quoting scripture is necessarily a sign of being nasty to those who might disagree with how the scripture is to be understood. You chose to take it that way and then launched into a very specific attack on the Catholic Church regarding its use of statues. As I said, this is would be a subject for another thread, so if you want to discuss this please begin one by asking a question, not by starting off with the accusatory tone you took on the subject.

FCEGM

thanks for the reply

A wise business man would be remiss if he did not see first if he agrees to an agreement to participate in a certain thing. Therefore a fool jumps in and finds out he does not agree, but the wise read the fine print first. One cannot agree to Catholicism and be in agreement with the Bible. And those who agree with the Bible first, are denied to be Catholic.

I find it impossible to agree with present day Catholicism, and agree with what the Bible teaches at the same time. And sometimes that frustration comes through. I apologize for that. But to even read and understand all that the Catholic teaches would take most of a life time which is more complicated then it needs to be. Being from Catholic upbringing it’s hard not to care about that.

One can get a doctorate from the Catholic Church, for the study of the catechism but I am not aware of anything like that toward the Word of God from the Catholic Church.

Why should one have to agree to all that is taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is merely the tip of the iceberg of what it teaches, when the Word of God is suffice for all things to be?

 

[theden]

One cannot agree to Catholicism and be in agreement with the Bible.

DP,

Did you read what I wrote? How does Catholicism not agree to the Bible?

Dennis

 

[FCEGM]

FCEGM

One cannot agree to Catholicism and be in agreement with the Bible. And those who agree with the Bible first, are denied to be Catholic.

OTC, since it is from the Catholic Church that we - including you - received the Bible in the first place. It is your particular and erroneous interpretations of it that sets you at odds both with Sacred Scripture and the Church that gave it to you and which alone has the right to interpret it dogmatically for the Faithful. Every doctrine of the Catholic Church can be sustained by reference to Sacred Scripture. You seem to prefer making carte blanche statements based on your personal bias against the Church and ignorance of her rather than engaging in a discussion on points of Catholic doctrine and/or practice with which you are in disagreement.

One can get a doctorate from the Catholic Church, for the study of the catechism but I am not aware of anything like that toward the Word of God from the Catholic Church

Then you are unaware, DP, that a Doctorate in Sacred Scripture can be attained at most Catholic universities and through the sacred colleges of the Church in Rome. Now you are aware.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by FCEGM
**I think you are reading far too much into PJM’s response; **he isn’t condemning you or anyone else who isn’t a Catholic, but simply stating the scriptural evidence for Catholic belief regarding the priesthood. I don’t think quoting scripture is necessarily a sign of being nasty to those who might disagree with how the scripture is to be understood. You chose to take it that way and then launched into a very specific attack on the Catholic Church regarding its use of statues. As I said, this is would be a subject for another thread, so if you want to discuss this please begin one by asking a question, not by starting off with the accusatory tone you took on the subject.

---

Thanks for defending me!

Here’s a question and a Bible verse you may wish to consider:

Do non-Catholic - christians ever carry photo’s of loved ones, and family members? WHY? I suspect i’ts for the very reason Catholics have statues: to remind them of the person showen.

**Exo. 25: ***Yahweh advising Moses how he is to build the ark of the covenant:18-20 “Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub This my friend is God telling Moses to BUILD STATUES FOR HIM ] on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.”

***What is Good enough for God; is Good enough for God’s church. ***

May God continue to Bless you!
Pat [PJM]

Is this a BAD THING? Yahweh did not think it was… **

 

[Mary_Christ]

So with you theory does that mean al the innocent victims of AIDS like babies and the women who never sinned are all being cleaned out as well as the sinners?

Dear jamanne,
There is no innocence as everyone is born into sin. There is a statement made in the Bible whereby inequity will follow the sinner for 4 or 5 generations. The way out is through Faith, that would include appropriate repentance. It should not be the sinners who are being cleaned out, but those wicked vipers, the hypocrites, who are being cleared out. Keep in mind that there are categories for sinner types. The worst wicked vipers are those who fall into the ditch and rather than take the FAITH way out, they decide to manipulate as many as possible to fall into the ditch too. So maybe the innocent women and children are just a part of a generation of past sinners. Then again, those who society thinks are innocent, is not what Jesus sees in their hearts.:ehh: