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Lea101
Guest
Are they truly rehabilitated? That’s like saying someone’s no longer gay because they have no contact with any male. Or someone no longer has murder tendencies because there’s no potential life to be taken away etc.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
If you feel you must say something, then it’s best to just be honest and say flat out what you just posted.
Many priests do not know when they’re being tone deaf. Some priests might not care. Others may not realize how they sound.
Since I’m not coming at the abuse issue from a very emotional standpoint, I myself wouldn’t be too bothered by what the priest said. I can see where someone who was more emotionally involved with the issue might not like to hear it though.
I would further note that God loves pedophiles too, same as how he loves Nazis, genocidal dictators, serial killers, and you and me. Pedophiles also might have a reduced culpability for their sin if they themselves were abused as children or have some kind of a brain disorder/ mental disorder.
Most people don’t want to hear this, though.
Many priests do not know when they’re being tone deaf. Some priests might not care. Others may not realize how they sound.
Since I’m not coming at the abuse issue from a very emotional standpoint, I myself wouldn’t be too bothered by what the priest said. I can see where someone who was more emotionally involved with the issue might not like to hear it though.
Exactly.
I would further note that God loves pedophiles too, same as how he loves Nazis, genocidal dictators, serial killers, and you and me. Pedophiles also might have a reduced culpability for their sin if they themselves were abused as children or have some kind of a brain disorder/ mental disorder.
Most people don’t want to hear this, though.
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Maximian
Guest
This is a mixture of two contradictory views of the human condition. The Catholic view is that Man is fallen and in need of grace. The gnostics by contrast used the image “nuggets of gold caked in mud” which is similar to the “pearl” mentioned by your priest.
So yes, they are sinners, and no they are not pearls.
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Lea101
Guest
I guess because it’s because you’re suggesting there’s a possibility of him being a certain way and that could cause offense. Don’t get me wrong, I thought the same of certain people too, but in general I would be careful.
To be fair, one may need to hear the whole context of this. From this it felt as if:
But all that aside…
A priest needs to know his audience. He’s talking to a group of people that are disgusted over the scandals. Saying things like ‘they’re sinners too’, ‘God loves them’, ‘they need to be polished’ may be factually accurate, but it’s not what you say to this specific audience. It’s what you say to the pedophiles themselves who are trying to change.
It just doesn’t fit this context: a leader telling this to laypeople about an issue that leaders were guilty of.
Other priests have addressed this scandal by focusing on the victims, how we can help them, and how we shouldn’t leave, but to lead. I think these messages are more beneficial.
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brown_bear
Guest
Maybe the same priest, if he sees, in the deserted church, a faithful convulsively searching for the smartphone that he had forgotten to turn off, and it is ringing, screams like an eagle.
The absent-minded poor fellow doesn’t seem to be much of a pearl.
It’s fictional, but not far-fetched on the whole.
The absent-minded poor fellow doesn’t seem to be much of a pearl.
It’s fictional, but not far-fetched on the whole.
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Phemie
Guest
As the sister-in-law of a convicted abuser, let me say that it’s not easy to be around him. Hubby has pretty much cut off contact, having spoken to his only sibling only a couple of times since 2007 when they last saw each other. It helps that we live at opposite ends of the country.TK421:
Would you be friends with a convicted pedophile though? I can’t imagine having a relationship with someone who has to constantly be in touch with the authorities, counsellors and can’t talk to children because there is a high chance of him scarring an innocent child. Most people wouldn’t want to even speak to them.
This doesn’t sound very Christian of me, I know.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Both what I said, that abusers ‘can and do stop’ and what you said ‘that they tend to fall back in’ are true. Hence the need for them to be kept away from children unsupervised and to openly and wholeheartedly agree with and maintain this restriction. Some of the worst cases reported both in the Catholic Church and elsewhere are cases in which these restrictions have not been maintained. I’m very happy to see abusers who do not keep away from children imprisoned or similar as a safety measure, not punishment for something they have yet to do (again).
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Even pedophiles have parents and other close family members. Often their family still loves them to some degree despite their bad tendencies.
And quite a few pedophiles who are not Catholic priests have long-term relationships and marriages.
Pedophiles also manage to have some friends.
Edited to add two stories:
- When a particular pedophile priest I knew distantly from another diocese died (he had admitted, towards the end of his life, to one incident of inappropriate behavior with a child and voluntarily asked to be removed from ministry), he had several people posting obits for him describing how much he had helped them with some spiritual issues, such as marriage problems, and one person who posted that the priest had been kind and helped her when she fell and injured herself on the school playground as a child and the other children laughed. (He apparently did not engage in any untoward behavior towards her.) So, at least some pedophiles are capable of doing good, positive things, and do not all run around being out of control towards minors all the time. The people for whom they do good things may well focus on their positive qualities.
- Some years ago I had a friend X who had grown up in a dysfunctional family and had another young man Y as a friend who had been very helpful to him when he was a teenager, in terms of being a supportive friend and role model and someone to talk to about his problems. X and Y had been friends for some years, but then Y was suddenly arrested by the feds for receiving porn containing minors in the mail. Y ended up spending a couple years in prison. X was very shocked as he had no indication that Y had such tendencies and Y had never made a move on him or anything. When Y got out of prison, X, who had missed his friend, was quite happy to connect with him again.
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FiveLinden
Guest
I have never developed a friendship with anyone I knew to be a pedophile but have had professional (at times adversarial) dealings with a few. If a good friend or relative was found to be a pedophile I would refuse to listen to any justification or excuses or self pity (and say so) but would not cut off contact. No point in being a friend otherwise. And you can’t choose your relatives.
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pnewton
Guest
As Catholics, we believe in a God of miracles, of mercy, and of grace. Remembering that the chief of all sinners was the greatest instrument for converting the world (St. Paul) there is no one beyond redemption. A person who committed heinous crimes of any sort still has the possibility of becoming a saint.
Considering some of what was said above, I know some will wonder if I say this because I am also a pedophile, like the speculation that a priests who preaches redemption must have something to have. Do not forget that Jesus said the worst sinners he knew would be in Heaven ahead of religious of His time. Without the recognition of one’s own sin, not that of others, there can be no forgiveness of sin.
Redemption, miraculous redemption, is God’s specialty.
“But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” St. Paul
A Christianity that only works when it is easy is rather worthless. These hard case are where we find God at his greatest.
None of this has anything to do with the consequences of sin, or of criminal behavior. All we do has consequences, some of which will continue this side of Heaven. No pedophile ever needs to be put back in a place of easy access to children. That is an entirely separate issue.
Considering some of what was said above, I know some will wonder if I say this because I am also a pedophile, like the speculation that a priests who preaches redemption must have something to have. Do not forget that Jesus said the worst sinners he knew would be in Heaven ahead of religious of His time. Without the recognition of one’s own sin, not that of others, there can be no forgiveness of sin.
Redemption, miraculous redemption, is God’s specialty.
“But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” St. Paul
A Christianity that only works when it is easy is rather worthless. These hard case are where we find God at his greatest.
None of this has anything to do with the consequences of sin, or of criminal behavior. All we do has consequences, some of which will continue this side of Heaven. No pedophile ever needs to be put back in a place of easy access to children. That is an entirely separate issue.
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GLam1761
Guest
pnewton you hit the nail on the head, we must abhor the SINFUL act,
and condemn it, but we MUST pray for the priest as much as for the victim
praying “God grant him contrition for this mortal sin” See 1 John 2:1-2
NO Sin is beyond the scope of God;s Grace and Mercy!! if it is hard for the
Priest to be saved, what about the ungodly and the sinner?
and condemn it, but we MUST pray for the priest as much as for the victim
praying “God grant him contrition for this mortal sin” See 1 John 2:1-2
NO Sin is beyond the scope of God;s Grace and Mercy!! if it is hard for the
Priest to be saved, what about the ungodly and the sinner?
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hoping4more
Guest
I should add; He said something like this before almost two years ago, and almost the exact same wording ‘they are sinners too’, refering to priest abusers (McCarrick).
My wife caught him saying something before to this effect but I missed it.
I did not paraphase him perfectly, as he mentioned these together but maybe a little more roundabout(a sentence or two between them; ‘sinners too’ & "pearls’).
Any guidance on what I should say?
Any reasonable expectations(we don’t really know anyone else in the parish to ask to email or how they heard what he said) and I imagine it will be something defensive? Can’t quiet come up with an ‘exit ramp’ for him to get out of this? Other than “Oh, no I just meant it for someone out there who is dealing with this that anyone can get forgiveness; spiritually speaking.”
Leave for another parish?
Our kids are supposed to have first communion this fall, so something I say may cancel that. Something of a debate in my mind of whether this is a hill to die on if this goes south.
My wife caught him saying something before to this effect but I missed it.
I did not paraphase him perfectly, as he mentioned these together but maybe a little more roundabout(a sentence or two between them; ‘sinners too’ & "pearls’).
Any guidance on what I should say?
Any reasonable expectations(we don’t really know anyone else in the parish to ask to email or how they heard what he said) and I imagine it will be something defensive? Can’t quiet come up with an ‘exit ramp’ for him to get out of this? Other than “Oh, no I just meant it for someone out there who is dealing with this that anyone can get forgiveness; spiritually speaking.”
Leave for another parish?
Our kids are supposed to have first communion this fall, so something I say may cancel that. Something of a debate in my mind of whether this is a hill to die on if this goes south.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Unless you can quote him verbatim, it’s hard to see what kind of action you can take. “He said something about pedophile priests that seemed to suggest … No, I don’t recollect his exact words … My wife and I both thought he meant … No, I didn’t mention it to anyone else, I don’t know if other people in the congregation had the same impression.”
Not exactly what you’d call an open and shut case, is it? Since it seems to be a subject he mentions in his homilies from time to time, the only thing I can suggest would be to keep on the lookout and next time it happens, make sure you memorize his exact words. And then, immediately after the end of Mass, talk to the priest and ask him. “Father, in your homily today. I think you said [quote his exact words]
. Is that correct? So I did understand you correctly, then. But it’s not clear to me what exactly you’re telling us about the pedophile priests themselves and about the Church’s response to the problem …”
In the meantime, congratulations to your kids on their upcoming First Communion!
Not exactly what you’d call an open and shut case, is it? Since it seems to be a subject he mentions in his homilies from time to time, the only thing I can suggest would be to keep on the lookout and next time it happens, make sure you memorize his exact words. And then, immediately after the end of Mass, talk to the priest and ask him. “Father, in your homily today. I think you said [quote his exact words]
. Is that correct? So I did understand you correctly, then. But it’s not clear to me what exactly you’re telling us about the pedophile priests themselves and about the Church’s response to the problem …”
In the meantime, congratulations to your kids on their upcoming First Communion!
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Lea101
Guest
As someone who worked with kids who had to be taken away because they have been raped by their own fathers + may want kids someday, I do not think I’m capable of that. Doesn’t make sense to only cut them off once I’m pregnant, tbh.
Would probably deal with them in a professional setting, and I have before, but i genuinely can’t imagine being friends with someone who has raped/hurt a child (or anyone). Violent crimes is where I draw the line. If I can’t trust that the other person won’t reoffend if ‘given the opportunity’, I can’t trust them in general. I know there will be some judging me for this, but whatever.
This is always a tricky issue to navigate as a Catholic. You would want these people to truly repent and have some sort of community, but hard to actually believe in this practically speaking.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Would you offer them the sign of peace at Mass?
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Lea101
Guest
The odds of me knowing whether there’s a pedophile near me at Mass is very slim, but assuming I did, I think I would do so. I don’t really take this part of the Mass seriously tho, as much as I hate to admit it. It’s something I just quickly get it over with people who made the gesture so I won’t look rude to them. If he made the sign (over here it’s a quick nod), I’ll just do it.
That being said, it’s one thing to say one would do something and actually doing it. I don’t know if future me would be kinder or harsher if she’s actually in that position.
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pnewton
Guest
Not all have the same gifts. We all have something that hits too close to home to treat with equanimity. With pedophiles, I think there are few who can be close and befriend them with the mercy and love of Christ. You have to be a lot like Jesus and have the right experience for that.
Besides pedophiles, I cannot get past those who abandon their spouse for a new boyfriend/girlfriend. We all have our areas that hurt too much to move completely past this side of Heaven, barring miraculous intervention, of course.
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TK421
Guest
I wouldn’t want to be, no.TK421:
Would you be friends with a convicted pedophile though? I can’t imagine having a relationship with someone who has to constantly be in touch with the authorities, counsellors and can’t talk to children because there is a high chance of him scarring an innocent child. Most people wouldn’t want to even speak to them.
This doesn’t sound very Christian of me, I know.
What I’m trying to say is that you’ve probably already met pedophiles at some point in your life and never knew it. When a pedophile is discovered, they are often attacked and beaten in prison, their property vandalized, threats made on their life, etc. Even being glared at can take a heavy toll after the 10th time. It makes it much more difficult to stay clean from a behavior when society uses that person for schadenfreude. Society helps perpetuate the cycle.
Basically, if alcoholics were treated the way pedophiles were treated, they would also have a much higher rate of returning to their habits. Yes, pedophilia is far more loathsome and people do what they do out of disgust or anger, but it doesn’t help. It makes everything worse.
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Crusader13
New member
@pnewton spoke very eloquently and even the most vile of sinners can be redeemed. Taking into account what pedophilia encompasses, it is, in many cases, the most heinous and evil of sins we can commit to another human being.
A pedophile takes the sexual act, which in Scripture, is something sacred and holy and used to create life, and twists it and defiles it so that it actually destroys life. For many of the victims they are so broken and shattered, spiritually, mentally and even physically, that they never recover. Some even take their own lives or inflict the same evil onto others as was done to them.
In Mark 9: 42 we read
These men have infected Holy Mother Church and their sin has caused many others to sin. It breeds corruption and a loss of faith to many.
I believe forgiveness comes from a place of healing and we aren’t at that point yet, because as a Church this disease is still afflicting our entire body.
A pedophile takes the sexual act, which in Scripture, is something sacred and holy and used to create life, and twists it and defiles it so that it actually destroys life. For many of the victims they are so broken and shattered, spiritually, mentally and even physically, that they never recover. Some even take their own lives or inflict the same evil onto others as was done to them.
In Mark 9: 42 we read
But just after that we read about sin in general and what we must do to keep ourselves from it. Obviously the language used is hyperbole, but the meaning is still the same. If we are the mystical body of Christ, then it could be said that the clergy who’ve engaged in the sin of pedophilia, need to be cut off. As we are told to cut off our own hand to keep us from the fires of hell.
These men have infected Holy Mother Church and their sin has caused many others to sin. It breeds corruption and a loss of faith to many.
I believe forgiveness comes from a place of healing and we aren’t at that point yet, because as a Church this disease is still afflicting our entire body.
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