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sedonaman
Guest
And your point is … ?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
You are talking about formal juridical excommunication, unlike, say, Bp Naumann’s telling Sebelius that she should abstain from communion, and unlike the automatic excommunication any abortion-supporting person incurs.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Yes, being asked to refrain from communion is not the same thing as excommunicaton.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
But she’s excommunicated nonetheless, as long as she promotes abortion. Just not through the operation of the canon legal system.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
No, that’s a misuse of the word excommunication. It is a specific word used for specific reasons in canon law. It does not apply in any way shape or form to pro-abortion politicians.
Canon law is a legal system and like all legal systems words have specific meanings. For example, being arrested by the police and being detained by the police are two very different things. Even though they have elements in common someone would be quit right to object to a statement that they were arrested when they were merely detained.
She may be refused communion under canon 915, however that is not excommunication.
Denial of the Eucharist to pro-abortion Catholic politicians: a canonical case study
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Ridgerunner
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There are a number of things for which one is ipso facto excommunicated without being canonically, juridically excommunicated. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Excommunication, especially a jure, is either latæ or ferendæ sententiæ. The first is incurred as soon as the offence is committed and by reason of the offence itself (eo ipso) without intervention of any ecclesiastical judge; it is recognized in the terms used by the legislator, for instance: “the culprit will be excommunicated at once, by the fact itself [statim, ipso facto]”. The second is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law. It is recognized when the law contains these or similar words: “under pain of excommunication”; “the culprit will be excommunicated”.
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NewEnglandPriest
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No, you are incorrect. What you quoted is explaining the two forms of excommunication can take.
You appear to be claiming that pro-abortion politicians fall under latæ sententiæ excommunication. The term means essentially “automatic” excommunication. Automatic excommunication is the declared canonical penalty for offenses that are specifically mentioned in canon law itself. One cannot be excommunicated latæ sententiæ unless they have committed a specific canonical crime for which that specific penalty is declared by the law.
Being a pro-abortion politician is not listed among offenses that are punished with latæ sententiæ excommunication.
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AthenaC
Guest
Several thoughts on this one:
- I wish I could “thumbs-up” some of your posts, the way you can “like” on Facebook. Many of you have great posts, and I wish I could call you out that way.
- I read something from the Most Rev. Charles J. Chaput (Google his name and “Why This Work Matters” and you may find the quote) saying that our first obligation in the political arena is to be Catholic. Also, the idea that the personal and the public personas are supposed to be separate is really kinda ludicrous. After all, SOMEBODY’S values are going to decide how we are governed. If we are silent, all that is accomplished is that someone else’s values will be victorious. As such, we should all be “lobbyists” of a sort and, in fact, we have no excuse not to be.
- I didn’t see anyone else link this yet, but if you haven’t seen it yet, youtube.com/watch?v=71NT42QtD64
- I don’t think a copy of the Catechism will do any good. People in general tend to be very irrational when it comes to protecting their own interests, which includes virtually everyone who claims the label “pro-choice” for one reason or another.
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Ridgerunner
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I understand that’s how you take it. A reading of it says otherwise. So your sources are what, then?
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
No, its not how I take it. Its what canon law says. You are simply incorrect.
No, you are misreading it. Excommunication is a specific penalty for specific canonical crimes. It can take place either through a judicial process or automatically upon the committing of a particular act. The crimes for which these penalties attach are clearly stated in canon law.
There are 8 crimes (IIRC) for which the penalty of automatic excommunication is attached. If someone where to commit one of those 8 canonical crimes then by their very actions they are excommunicated, there is no judicial process. Being a pro-abortion politician is not one of the 8 crimes.
My source is canon law itself and the fact that I’ve actually studied canon law.
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Ridgerunner
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Gee, no sources. Oh well.
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NewEnglandPriest
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The source is canon law itself. On what basis do you think excommunication is not explained via canon law?Gee, no sources. Oh well.
What “sources” are you looking for? What is it that you don’t understand?
You’ve made a claim that Pelosi is excommunicated. On what possible basis do you make that claim? She has not committed any act that canon laws applies a latae sententiae excommunication penalty to.
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CorinneV
Guest
To “New England Pries”’,
Revered Father,
Will you please provide the citation in canon law, so that other forum members can read the relevant section for themselves?
Respectfully,
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forum member
Revered Father,
Will you please provide the citation in canon law, so that other forum members can read the relevant section for themselves?
Respectfully,
A
forum member
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bearer
Guest
If Rep. Pelosi were excommunicated, she would spin it to her advantage and probably drive more Catholic democrats out of the church.
I take those kind of measures very seriously. Christ is Love above all else. Forcibly separating someone from His Church and Sacraments is a huge step to take, and should be reserved for very special circumstances, as I think canon law shows.
I take those kind of measures very seriously. Christ is Love above all else. Forcibly separating someone from His Church and Sacraments is a huge step to take, and should be reserved for very special circumstances, as I think canon law shows.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
I’m glad to. Just tell me exactly what it is you want a citation for. I can’t show anyone what doesn’t exist. So, what exactly is the question you have?
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CorinneV
Guest
This post is in reply to the recent posts from New England Pries, and from “bearer”.
To New England Pries:
Reverend Father,
In your post of Dec 6, '11 1:10 pm, you state that the source for your discussion of excommunication is canon law . I am requesting that you provide the specific citations from canon law that relate to the statements you have posted regarding canon law.
I think that it is possible that a close reading of the canon law would support the position that Senator Pelosi has, in effect, already excommunicated herself, by conspiring to provide abortions. Her status is only to be found in her own heart and soul.
To bearer:
I agree wholeheartedly that excommunication is deadly serious, and I personally do not advocate excommunication for politicians who advocate for abortion “rights.” I believe that we must respect our democratic process, and we must assume that these politicians are speaking and acting in good faith, that is, that they are sincere in the policy positions that they advocate. Unfortunately, Senator Pelosi stands for an immoral position that many citizens believe in.
I think that, when we see bishops who do not withhold Holy Communion from such politicians, we should assume that the bishops are respecting the politicians’ position as elected representatives of the people. I believe that the bishops are reluctant to harass duly elected representavies.
I think that, if you feel strongly that these politicians are wrong, the appropriate reaction is to work within our political sytem to oppose and unseat them. We live in a country whose political system is responsive to the will of those who participate, and we should take advantage of our civil rights to work toward a more moral political rule.
I think that a change of political leadership can be effective, but a more effective change is a change of heart among our fellow citizens.
I personally have a low opinion of Senator Pelosi, and of her declaration that she is a devout Catholic. No, she is not!!
I really think these forums are great.
To New England Pries:
Reverend Father,
In your post of Dec 6, '11 1:10 pm, you state that the source for your discussion of excommunication is canon law . I am requesting that you provide the specific citations from canon law that relate to the statements you have posted regarding canon law.
I think that it is possible that a close reading of the canon law would support the position that Senator Pelosi has, in effect, already excommunicated herself, by conspiring to provide abortions. Her status is only to be found in her own heart and soul.
To bearer:
I agree wholeheartedly that excommunication is deadly serious, and I personally do not advocate excommunication for politicians who advocate for abortion “rights.” I believe that we must respect our democratic process, and we must assume that these politicians are speaking and acting in good faith, that is, that they are sincere in the policy positions that they advocate. Unfortunately, Senator Pelosi stands for an immoral position that many citizens believe in.
I think that, when we see bishops who do not withhold Holy Communion from such politicians, we should assume that the bishops are respecting the politicians’ position as elected representatives of the people. I believe that the bishops are reluctant to harass duly elected representavies.
I think that, if you feel strongly that these politicians are wrong, the appropriate reaction is to work within our political sytem to oppose and unseat them. We live in a country whose political system is responsive to the will of those who participate, and we should take advantage of our civil rights to work toward a more moral political rule.
I think that a change of political leadership can be effective, but a more effective change is a change of heart among our fellow citizens.
I personally have a low opinion of Senator Pelosi, and of her declaration that she is a devout Catholic. No, she is not!!
I really think these forums are great.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Excommunication is listed under medicinal penalties (Can.1312 §1,1 and Can. 1331).
To establish the penalty of excommunication the canons must be interpreted strictly. Canons are not to be “bent” in order to excommunicate someone. And in order for an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication to be considered to have happened the law must expressly state that the act is punished with automatic excommunication.
Which canon would you use to support that notion?
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scipio337
Guest
Very thorough (and interesting study).
I only wish more biships were aware of it.
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chuckt
Guest
It is time for our Bishops to take a stand against the politicians and people of stature who take a stand against the teachings of the Catholic Church and them proclaim themselves as devout Catholics. Deny the Sacraments to them. They are not devout Catholics.
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CorinneV
Guest
In response to ‘New England Pries’,
I am not at all familiar with canon law and therefore was ignorant to its application in the case of pro-abortion politicians. I appreciate your explanation of the law. This makes it clear to me that our bishops are not required to excommunicate these politicians.
In response to those of you who advocate withholding communion from these politicians:
I think that when a Nancy Pelosi presents herself in a Catholic Mass to receive Communion, she is rudely imposing on our Church. This is obnoxious of her. I think that a gentle but effective response would be for the priest or deacon to be sure to preach on the subject of the sacredness of life whenever she is known to be attending a Mass. And fellow attendees are free to confront her personally on this topic. I would love to read a news story that goes, “Pelosi Swamped by Pro-Life Catholics As She Leaves Mass”!! Wouldn’t that be great?
I am not at all familiar with canon law and therefore was ignorant to its application in the case of pro-abortion politicians. I appreciate your explanation of the law. This makes it clear to me that our bishops are not required to excommunicate these politicians.
In response to those of you who advocate withholding communion from these politicians:
I think that when a Nancy Pelosi presents herself in a Catholic Mass to receive Communion, she is rudely imposing on our Church. This is obnoxious of her. I think that a gentle but effective response would be for the priest or deacon to be sure to preach on the subject of the sacredness of life whenever she is known to be attending a Mass. And fellow attendees are free to confront her personally on this topic. I would love to read a news story that goes, “Pelosi Swamped by Pro-Life Catholics As She Leaves Mass”!! Wouldn’t that be great?
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