Pentagon confirms Quran desecration.

[Thekla]

gilliam:

It is hardly what Newsweek reported.

Interesting how a news magazine is held to a higher standard than the government. They have to get it exactly right while the government is allowed to flop from version to version.

 

[Bella3502]

Hmmmm.

Would anyone care if the situation were reversed and Muslims were flushing the Bible? Would there be any outrage…???

Just wondering…

 

[gilliam]

Thekla:

Interesting how a news magazine is held to a higher standard than the government. They have to get it exactly right while the government is allowed to flop from version to version.

What are you talking about? Newsweek was entirely wrong.

 

[Jeffrey]

Still wasn’t flushed.

Thekla:

You must have missed the “splashed urine” part. The reason the Pentagon is dumping this on a Friday night is because they overacted on the Newsweek story with what I would call false outrage.

 

[Jeffrey]

Nope. Sad but true.

Bella3502:

Hmmmm.

Would anyone care if the situation were reversed and Muslims were flushing the Bible? Would there be any outrage…???

Just wondering…

 

[gilliam]

We weren’t flushing the Koran

Only people flushing the Koran over there were Muslem terrorists who were trying to stop up the toilets with pages from the Koran

 

[gilliam]

An interrogator accidentally stepped on a prisoner’s Koran, copies of Islam’s holy text got wet when guards tossed water balloons into a cellblock and one was “splashed” by urine, according to the final results of a Pentagon probe. But the investigation sparked by accusations in the press about desecration of the Koran here found “no credible evidence” that prison guards or interrogators “ever flushed a Koran down a toilet,” the U.S. Southern Command, which oversees the prison for terrorism suspects, said yesterday. The findings show that al Qaeda and Taliban detainees at the detention center themselves mishandled Korans on 15 occasions, three times more than the military prison’s guards and interrogators. "These included using a Koran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Koran, attempting to flush a Koran down the toilet, and urinating on the Koran." The probe found five confirmed incidents of military guards and interrogators “mishandling” the Koran, a fact cited by military officials before but never described in detail. The incidents were:…

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com …

 

[didymus]

gilliam:

FOX just reported there were five cases of “book abuse” by guards at GITMO… PLUS there were FIFTEEN cases committed by GITMO detainees.

FOX? There’s a reliable source – NOT!!
Even if true, does that justify the cases committed by the guards?

 

[gilliam]

didymus:

FOX? There’s a reliable source – NOT!!
Even if true, does that justify the cases committed by the guards?

OK, will you believe CNN?

Detainees, not soldiers, flushed Quran

*A U.S. military investigation into the mishandling of the Muslim holy book at the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists has determined that detainees – not U.S. soldiers – attempted to flush the Quran down the toilet there. *

*-SNIP- *

*In one incident, on February 23, 2004, the report said a guard saw a "detainee place two Qurans in his toilet and state he no longer cared about the Quran or his religion. *

*Five minutes later, after the detainee retrieved the Qurans, he ripped several pages out of one Quran and threw the pages on the floor. Then, he placed both Qurans on the sink." *

*Another time, on January 19, 2005, a detainee “tore up his Quran and tried to flush it down the toilet. Four guards witnessed the incident,” the report said. *

*The report also cited 12 other incidents by detainees, including one who used his Quran as a pillow, another who urinated on his holy book and several who ripped pages from the Quran. *

*Capt. Jeff Weir, an Army spokesman at the facility, told CNN in a phone interview that the detainees were typically trying to stage some form of protest when they mishandled the Quran. *

*Hood said investigators reviewed more than 30,000 documents in an exhaustive probe. *

*“The inquiry found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task Force at Guantanamo Bay ever flushed a Quran down a toilet. This matter is considered closed,” the report said. *

*It said the U.S. military has issued more than 1,600 copies of the Quran since January 2002, conducted more than 28,000 interrogations and carried out thousands of “cell moves.” *“Mishandling a Quran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence,” Hood said. “Mishandling of a Quran here is never condoned.”

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com …

Why do you think so poorly of our men in uniform that you would assume the worst about them???

 

[gilliam]

Good stuff from Michelle Malkin:

Read the Pentagon’s investigative findings for yourself here.

See also the Pentagon news release, which puts things in proper perspective and the text of US military regs on handling the Koran. All in PDF.

As Charles Krauthammer writes powerfully in his column from earlier today, “the self-flagellation has gone far enough.” Krauthammer’s last wordsoes the Koran deserve special respect? Of course it does. As do the Bibles destroyed by the religious police in Saudi Arabia and the Torahs blown up in various synagogues from Tunisia to Turkey. Should the United States apologize? If there were mishandlings of the Koran, we should say so and express regret. And that should be in the context of our remarkably humane and tolerant treatment of the Guantanamo prisoners, and in the context of a global war on terrorism (for example, the campaign in Afghanistan) conducted with a discrimination and a concern for civilian safety rarely seen in the annals of warfare.

Then we should get over it, stop whimpering and start defending ourselves.

Update: Here’s an interesting e-mail that just arrived…

Your article describing the treatment of detainees and their access to books other than the Koran is accurate. The detainees also have their own medical facility and an exercise yard where they run, play soccer and engage in other physical activities. I know these things because I was a guard there from Dec. 2002 to Sept. 2003. I was in a National Guard infantry unit assigned to man the towers inside and the checkpoints around Camp Delta. I have seen these things firsthand.

I will never forget seeing an MP waiting at Guantanamo Bay Naval Hospital after being splattered by a detainees bodily fluids. You never hear about these incidents in the media and you never hear about MP’s having to be tested for hepatitis and other infections due to these incidents.

Gitmo, like most detention facilities, will never approach any state of perfection. However, from what I have observed, most injuries to detainees were self-inflicted, such as attempted suicides.

That notwithstanding, the general atmosphere is not threatening. I cannot count the number of times a detainee would look up at me in one of the towers and give me a friendly smile and wave.

Prior to our units deployment to Gitmo we were trained to look for any sign of abuse toward the detainees and report it immediately. We were given cards with specific steps to take if such an event occured. This card became an inspectable item that we had to carry in our uniform shirt pocket when on duty.

This was all done to drive home to us the idea that we were there to do three specific things. We were to keep out unathorized personnel, prevent the escape of detainees, and ensure the safety of the detainees.

The correspondent also notes:

1.The international media makes regular visits (almost every week when I was stationed there).

1. The IRC is there all the time. They don’t just make occasional visits.
2. The FBI is there all the time. Not just to make inspections.

Some gulag.

Update II: Miracles do happen. CNN gets a headline right: Detainees, not soldiers, flushed Quran

michellemalkin.com/archives/002642.htm

 

[geezerbob]

didymus:

FOX? There’s a reliable source – NOT!!
Even if true, does that justify the cases committed by the guards?

This news has the same source, whether reported by Fox or CNN or anybody else.

---

Nobody has even attempted to justify misconduct by guards. They have been deservedly punished by the military. What else do you want?

 

[shockerfan]

The problem as I see it, is that a number of people want all of the details published (very similar to the court action taking place now to force the publishing of more Abu Ghraib photos). These people relish in the announcement of every stupid thing ever done by a soldier. Despite the fact that in both cases, Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, investigations were being done prior to, and independant of , the story breaking in the press, people still feel the need for every detail to be made public. The problem is that those details incite the enemy. Those details make it more dangerous for our troups…lives are at more risk than before.

 

[geezerbob]

shockerfan:

The problem as I see it, is that a number of people want all of the details published (very similar to the court action taking place now to force the publishing of more Abu Ghraib photos). These people relish in the announcement of every stupid thing ever done by a soldier. Despite the fact that in both cases, Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, investigations were being done prior to, and independant of , the story breaking in the press, people still feel the need for every detail to be made public. The problem is that those details incite the enemy. Those details make it more dangerous for our troups…lives are at more risk than before.

To me, the whole thing is fueled by hate, a noble Christian attribute. Some people hate the administration so much that they will publicize anything to try to discredit it, be it truths, half truths or out and out lies. There appears to be absolutely no concern about “collateral damage” unless it’s caused by the military.

“United We Stand” is more than just a slogan on a bumper sticker. People need to understand that war has been declared on us by a group that wears no uniforms, recognizes no national boundaries, no conventions of war, no treaties, and has absolutely no regard for human life. In my opinion, anything we do or say that helps their cause in any way whatsoever is, at the very least, irresponsible. This applies to the scared 18 year old who shoots when he shouldn’t and is appropriately punished by the military as well as to those who want to smear such information across the front page of every newspaper in the country. At least the kid has a reasonable excuse - he was scared. What kind of excuse can be made for those among us who aid the enemy’s recruiting by airing inflammatory material and, at the same time, endanger our troops and even our very nation? Is it politics before patriotism, pride, stupidity, hate, or what? It is something I truly do not understand.

 

[trailblazer]

Oh no! I can’t believe we could do such a thing! Lets see, they send planes into buildings killing thousands, they cut off the heads of women and men, they kill women and children without regret, they support a government that oppressed, tortured, starved, raped, and murdered its people. And, we are suppose to kiss their feet? Gee, if such things are what the Quran/Koran (however its spelled) stands for, I would put it in the toilet and urinate on it myself! And, ENJOY doing so! I wonder with what respect these people who our media works so hard to justify treat the Bibles and Rosaries of their prisoners. where is the media on reporting this. But, I guess the Koran/Quran(however its spelled) is much more important to the media because they consider it Holy. Have you ever noticed that whenever the media refers to the Koran, they refer to it as the Holy Koran, whereas the Bible is just the bible?
Newsweek’s article was responsible for the lives of numerous US citizen – they are responsible for deaths of Americans now and in the future. They and the rest of media should be ACCOUNTABLE for their actions! They might as well have personally gunned them down. ** SICK! ANTI_AMERICAN! ANTI-CHRISTIAN!!!**

**THE MEDIA MAKES ME MAD, **
DOES IT AFFECT YOU THE SAME?

http://www.smilieland.com/graphics3/gbusa.gif

 

[KathleenElsie]

Here is what I think.
1>We should give respect for items that are considered sacred to others. We should expect the same consideration from others.This does not mean we worship them just the rights of others.
2>We need to protect our troops and country to the best of our ability.In doing so we are protecting others in the world. Giving verbal approval (or ignoring the situation) to the killing of Christians and Jews is creating danger for all of us in the world Muslems included.
3>We also should protect the lives of everyone. Born and unborn life is GOD GIVEN. Thus we should be as vocal in our OUTRAGE for any and all types of MURDER no matter who is responsible.
4>SOMETING I DO IS CHECK TO SEE WHAT KIND OF THREADS SOMEONE POSTS TO AND THIS ALLOWS ME TO GIVE CREDANCE TO THEIR REMARKS. WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN PEOPLE POST JUST TO GET A REACTION. ME INCLUDED.:banghead:

 

[Thekla]

You are right in that that is where the question lies.

gilliam:

Hardly what I would call rampent organized desecration of the Quran.

All of these stories, emails and reports are pieces; the question is are they pieces of a puzzle or random, isolated incidents? The fact that a guard urinated on a detainee is an incident that shouldn’t merit much outside attention. However, if that kind of abuse was encouraged or ignored by those in authority, then it’s part of a larger puzzle.

People will argue that those who conducted 9/11 deserve rough treatment. Fair enough. However, hundreds of detainees have been released without charges and some, whether in Afghanistan or Gitmo, have reported abuse.

As with the prison abuse in Iraq, it all falls back to the question of policy or even tacit approval. Are the foot soldiers encouraged to abuse detainees to only later be caught, tried and convicted? How does General Miller connect to the abuse in Iraq and the abuse in Gitmo? Is there even a connection?

Those who support our politicians generally say this is all random. And those who don’t, say that they figure that Muslims deserve it anyways. Those who do not support our politicians, see a connection, and more troubling, see a willingness to sacrifice the foot soldiers to protect the higher ups.

 

[gnjsdad]

gilliam:

What are you talking about? Newsweek was entirely wrong.

Yup, and the government was entirely truthful. That’s the ticket. You made Thekla’s point.

 

[Fitz]

geezerbob:

To me, the whole thing is fueled by hate, a noble Christian attribute. Some people hate the administration so much that they will publicize anything to try to discredit it, be it truths, half truths or out and out lies. There appears to be absolutely no concern about “collateral damage” unless it’s caused by the military.

“United We Stand” is more than just a slogan on a bumper sticker. People need to understand that war has been declared on us by a group that wears no uniforms, recognizes no national boundaries, no conventions of war, no treaties, and has absolutely no regard for human life. In my opinion, anything we do or say that helps their cause in any way whatsoever is, at the very least, irresponsible. This applies to the scared 18 year old who shoots when he shouldn’t and is appropriately punished by the military as well as to those who want to smear such information across the front page of every newspaper in the country. At least the kid has a reasonable excuse - he was scared. What kind of excuse can be made for those among us who aid the enemy’s recruiting by airing inflammatory material and, at the same time, endanger our troops and even our very nation? Is it politics before patriotism, pride, stupidity, hate, or what? It is something I truly do not understand.

And some have come to these forums to fuel hate also and that is surprising. A reasonable debate on this forum should not lead to these type of arguments. I can see it in the mainstream of people because there are many that are not Catholic or Christian. Here, I find it rather disturbing. I have a grip, but am repeatedly given one line zingers to discredit my defense of our military.

I agree with all you have said, and I won’t be coming back to this thead anytime soon. I pray for our military every day for the attacks that are upon them from the enemy without and from the enemy within our country.

 

[gilliam]

gnjsdad:

Yup, and the government was entirely truthful. That’s the ticket. You made Thekla’s point.

I still don’t see your point. The government said they would investigate. They did, and they reported on their investigation. They were very up front.

 

[Thekla]

gilliam:

I still don’t see your point. The government said they would investigate. They did, and they reported on their investigation. They were very up front.

This isn’t an investigation that happened because of what Newsweek wrote, it was already going on. And yet they were so offended by such outlandish allegations; knowing full well that some of these things were already in the report.

BTW - Check out Larry Di Rita on May 17

“MR. DI RITA: We’ve had instances, as I said, and we’re reviewing those, where detainees have said, “A Koran fell to the floor and I was offended by that.” So we’re looking – that’s the nature of these reviews. We’re seeing log entries to that effect. And that’s the purpose of making sure that our procedures are as careful as they can be.”

“A Koran fell to the floor and I was offended by that.” Di Rita’s a funny guy.