Pentecostalism?

[ltwin]

I once heard a Penecostal minister say that over 90% of all catholics are going to hell after having had a discussion with a couple nuns who attended one of his services and "finally agreed to disagree’ with them as the nuns were walking out of his church building.

There are Pentecostals like that out there. But there are also Pentecostals like David du Plessis, who was inspired by the Spirit to reach out mainline Protestants and the Catholic Church. Increasingly, Pentecostals like du Plessis have been gaining a hearing.

I would also point out that the Vatican and Pentecostals have been in dialogue for decades now. We don’t agree on everything, that’s obvious, but most mainstream Pentecostals today would consider Catholics as Christians.

 

[ltwin]

Just for informational purposes, my cousin is Catholic and my side of the family is Pentecostal. There has never been any questioning of his Christian faith, and we don’t try to convert him. He got married when I was a child in this fancy Catholic church. I don’t know what its called but the boy that was suppose to hold a Bible or something for the priest didn’t show up and my brother was picked up to do it.

Also, we had a prophetess lead a revival at my church years ago. There were a lot of visitors at our church during the services, and one happened to be this young Catholic woman. She had been touched during the service and the prophet called her out for prayer. The woman said she was Catholic and the prophetess said in a matter of fact way well God moves among the Catholics too. There was no need to convert her nor was an attempt made.

 

[LegoGE1947]

There are Pentecostals like that out there. But there are also Pentecostals like David du Plessis, who was inspired by the Spirit to reach out mainline Protestants and the Catholic Church. Increasingly, Pentecostals like du Plessis have been gaining a hearing.

I would also point out that the Vatican and Pentecostals have been in dialogue for decades now. We don’t agree on everything, that’s obvious, but most mainstream Pentecostals today would consider Catholics as Christians.

This was back in the 1980s and this preacher and his wife had some ideas that even some hard-core Pentecostals considered off the charts. Example the wife once preached on “laughter” which was okay but then proceeded to turn the service in to a “circus” by inviting one man to come to the front, sit in a chair, remove his shoes and socks and then she knelt down and proceeded to tickle his feet, then she and another man had a mock “boxing match”, then they pulled out some bottles of selzer water and ran after each other squirting at each other and at people in the audience. I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.

 

[ltwin]

This was back in the 1980s and this preacher and his wife had some ideas that even some hard-core Pentecostals considered off the charts. Example the wife once preached on “laughter” which was okay but then proceeded to turn the service in to a “circus” by inviting one man to come to the front, sit in a chair, remove his shoes and socks and then she knelt down and proceeded to tickle his feet, then she and another man had a mock “boxing match”, then they pulled out some bottles of selzer water and ran after each other squirting at each other and at people in the audience. I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.

. Was this a denominational church? Or one of those shady independent operations? I hope you got out of there as soon as you could .

Trust me, as a Pentecostal it gets frustrating having to see this kind of stuff going on. This is Pentecostalism at its worse, and its unfortunate because there are so many treasures in this Christian tradition that so many people never get to see because of all of the foolishness people come up with.

 

[LegoGE1947]

. Was this a denominational church? Or one of those shady independent operations? I hope you got out of there as soon as you could .

It was an independent church. We should have gotten out right then but unfortunately we didn’t know where to go at the time so we stayed another few months and then left.

 

[LegoGE1947]

. Was this a denominational church? Or one of those shady independent operations? I hope you got out of there as soon as you could .

Trust me, as a Pentecostal it gets frustrating having to see this kind of stuff going on. This is Pentecostalism at its worse, and its unfortunate because there are so many treasures in this Christian tradition that so many people never get to see because of all of the foolishness people come up.

These people were students of Kenneth E Hagin, and fans of Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, and several other fools that call themselves “anointed of the Spirit”.

 

[ltwin]

You really do have to be careful. I’m all for freedom to let the Spirit move, but some things are just ridiculous. I have been in some knock out drag out services, and ones where the neighbors called the police on us, but the element that was always present was the Spirit’s convicting, saving, delivering, healing, and prophetic work. There was also exhibited a healthy control by the leadership of the church. It is the pastor’s role to ensure that the Spirit is not grieved, and that means rebuking people when they get out of order or when they mock the Holy Spirit.

 

[ltwin]

These people were students of Kenneth E Hagin, and fans of Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, and several other fools that call themselves “anointed of the Spirit”.

Yeah. I’m familiar with Hagin and Copeland. Sadly, their teachings have infiltrated so many Pentecostal churches. It is sad. However, what most people don’t realize is that these teachings are not original to Pentecostalism. They are aberrations and corruptions.

 

[jason3477]

I was into that RHEMA/keneth Hagin stuff back in the late 1990’s. They called it-drunk in the spirit and holy laughter… a lot of us young people got caught up in al that.

But thanks to the Lord I’m Home now!!!

But sometimes the evil one tempts me to go back to one of those megachurches, but I don’t listen to the enemy lol…

 

[ltwin]

I was into that RHEMA/keneth Hagin stuff back in the late 1990’s. They called it-drunk in the spirit and holy laughter… a lot of us young people got caught up in al that.

But thanks to the Lord I’m Home now!!!

But sometimes the evil one tempts me to go back to one of those megachurches, but I don’t listen to the enemy lol…

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that there are times when one can be overwhelmed by the Spirit. However, the problem occurs when all that is desired is an ecstatic experience. I don’t look for spiritual highs, but I don’t resist God when I feel him on me either. If that means I’ll have to run the aisles or roll on the floor or dance before the Lord with all my might, then so be it. I have done all of those before.

One time I felt the Spirit prompting me to run and I resisted at first but then gave into it. So I’m running around the church with my eyes half opened and blurred by tears. Then boom I run into the wall. Afterward, everyone though I had fallen out in the Spirit,and I was like no, no I ran into the wall. LOL.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I’ve heard that expression “backsliding” I was really blown away when I became Catholic and they didn’t require me to be rebaptised but accepted my baptism at an Assemby of God Church some 40 years ago because it was a trinitarian baptism. But I would suspect if it was the other way around (a Catholic converting to a Pentecostal group, they would require you to be rebaptised since they don’t even consider Catholicism to be “Christian”)

Most Pentecostals don’t “require” baptism. However most think that a believer should ask to be baptized and make a public profession of faith before the ordnance takes place. Many do ask to go through a baptism again for personal reasons

edit to add:
Presumably if you are joining a church it is out of the belief that they are right so you may just ask to be baptized again And as many attend and never officially join the specific congregation and/or denomination, kids are not added to the roles because their parents attend or attended on baptism day. There are many unbaptized in the pews.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Most Pentecostals don’t “require” baptism. However most think that a believer should ask to be baptized and make a public profession of faith before the ordnance takes place. Many do ask to go through a baptism again for personal reasons

edit to add:
Presumably if you are joining a church it is out of the belief that they are right so you may just ask to be baptized again And as many attend and never officially join the specific congregation and/or denomination, kids are not added to the roles because their parents attend or attended on baptism day. There are many unbaptized in the pews.

I remember an interesting story about the Pentecostal custom of being “slain in the Spirit”. I needed surgery on an outpatient basis and the man who took me to the doctor that day was an usher in the Pentacostal church we were attending. He was accustomed to catching people as they fell out “under the power” After the surgery the doctor gave me a prescription and we went to a drug store to buy it. As I was standing in a very long line waiting, the pain from my surgery became unbearable and I passed out. Fortunately my usher friend was standing right behind me and caught me as I went down and he cushioned my fall.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Assemblies of God as a denominational body would probably consider the Catholic Church a Christian body with many suspicious practices, like veneration of saints. Today, the Assemblies of God as a whole would consider the Catholic Church a Christian church. The whole “Whore of Babylon” attitude gave way a long time ago, and it was helped in a big way by the Charismatic Movement, which Pentecostals recognize as a work of the Spirit.

A Catholic converting to the Assemblies of God would only have to be rebaptized if they were an infant when it occurred, because Pentecostals believe that one must express faith in Christ for baptism to be valid. However, if a Catholic had been baptized at a later age then their baptism would be entirely acceptable./QUOTE]

Down right generous and kindly of them.

 

[ltwin]

ltwin;8515398:

The Assemblies of God as a denominational body would probably consider the Catholic Church a Christian body with many suspicious practices, like veneration of saints. Today, the Assemblies of God as a whole would consider the Catholic Church a Christian church. The whole “Whore of Babylon” attitude gave way a long time ago, and it was helped in a big way by the Charismatic Movement, which Pentecostals recognize as a work of the Spirit.

A Catholic converting to the Assemblies of God would only have to be rebaptized if they were an infant when it occurred, because Pentecostals believe that one must express faith in Christ for baptism to be valid. However, if a Catholic had been baptized at a later age then their baptism would be entirely acceptable./

QUOTE]

Down right generous and kindly of them.

Well considering that the Catholic Church is way more exclusive than Pentecostals will ever be, its not really that big of a deal. I suspect many Pentecostal churches would not even inquire about the specific details of one’s baptism anyway. The important thing is can you testify to having Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. However, I do suspect that most Pentecostals would see an infant baptism as more of a commitment being made by that child’s parents. Thus, it probably would be necessary for the convert to be baptized on the basis of his own confession of faith.

 

[LegoGE1947]

CopticChristian;8516161:

Well considering that the Catholic Church is way more exclusive than Pentecostals will ever be, its not really that big of a deal. I suspect many Pentecostal churches would not even inquire about the specific details of one’s baptism anyway. The important thing is can you testify to having Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. However, I do suspect that most Pentecostals would see an infant baptism as more of a commitment being made by that child’s parents. Thus, it probably would be necessary for the convert to be baptized on the basis of his own confession of faith.

In most evangelical communities infants are “dedicated” to the Lord rather than baptised. This is a ceremony where the parents bring the infant to the preacher and dedicate themselves to bringing the child up “in the nurture and admonition of the Lord” so that when the child gets older he or she will decide for his or herself to follow the Lord. So yes, this is a commitment of the parents.

 

[Della]

CopticChristian;8516161:

Well considering that the Catholic Church is way more exclusive than Pentecostals will ever be, its not really that big of a deal. I suspect many Pentecostal churches would not even inquire about the specific details of one’s baptism anyway. The important thing is can you testify to having Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.

The Catholic Church isn’t trying to be “exclusive” when it makes certain criteria for baptism–it is endeavoring to do as Our Lord commanded. Indeed, it’s much more inclusive to baptize infants rather than exclude them from the sacrament that initiates one in the faith (see Acts 16:15 & 18:8; 1 Cor. 1:16); . The Church does not believe anyone should be excluded because of age or infirmity (the severely mentally retarded can be baptized, as well, even though they do not know what is happening or why). Christ is for all people, not just those who can understand. Confession, though is not required until a child reaches the age when he knows right from wrong. In the Eastern Rite churches, an infant is not only baptized but confirmed, as well, something Catholics wait to do until they are older.

 

[josephback]

I should think that running after spiritual ‘highs’ would be akin to running after the ‘highs’ one might get from being on drugs. You have to run after higher highs all the time. No high I ever got going to pentecostal groups ever lasted. I can’t tell you how many “altar calls” I responded to thinking I had lost my salvation because the high wore off. Like you I feel finally like I’m on something solid and lasting after becoming Catholic.

The altar call isn’t exclusive to Pentecostalism, but growing up with it I remember praying the “sinner’s parayer” AT LEAST six times! I could never get assurance of my salvation, but in retrospect it kept me searching. No one explained baptism to me. IMO altar calls exist among certain non-Catholic groups because of the lack of sacramental confession. People sense the truth but they are blinded by the teaching of salvation as a one time event. Hence they keep trying to come up with the moment they were saved. It’s cruel

 

[LegoGE1947]

The altar call isn’t exclusive to Pentecostalism, but growing up with it I remember praying the “sinner’s parayer” AT LEAST six times! I could never get assurance of my salvation, but in retrospect it kept me searching. No one explained baptism to me. IMO altar calls exist among certain non-Catholic groups because of the lack of sacramental confession. People sense the truth but they are blinded by the teaching of salvation as a one time event. Hence they keep trying to come up with the moment they were saved. It’s cruel

As an evangelical I could never come up with the moment I was “saved”. I do remember when I was baptized in August 1973 and apparently that’s when the Catholic Church believes I was “saved.” Because that was what they wanted to know when I went through RCIA was I baptized and if so when and where? I no longer worry about it. Such a relief:thumbsup:

 

[ltwin]

The altar call isn’t exclusive to Pentecostalism, but growing up with it I remember praying the “sinner’s parayer” AT LEAST six times! I could never get assurance of my salvation, but in retrospect it kept me searching. No one explained baptism to me. IMO altar calls exist among certain non-Catholic groups because of the lack of sacramental confession. People sense the truth but they are blinded by the teaching of salvation as a one time event. Hence they keep trying to come up with the moment they were saved. It’s cruel

Pentecostals understand the altar (actually the area in front of the platform) as a place of prayer. It is a place that we can go as we are moved by the Spirit to kneel in prayer and be joined by others who will pray with us. We don’t have to confess our sins there; we can do that anywhere. When a Christian sins, it doesn’t mean he has “lost his salvation” (our salvation is not within our power to gain or lose) or the new birth is canceled. It means that we are still human and we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If someone has sin in their life and they feel led to go to the altar and ask forgiveness then that is fine. However, Pentecostals do not believe that one must have a new conversion experience every time one has sinned. Once Jesus has been made lord and savior of our life, we can confess our sins and turn away from them and he is faithful to forgive them.

There is what is called “backsliding” where person lives in a state of unconfessed and unrepentant sin. Often, when backsliders return to God it is called rededicating their lives to Christ. Such a situation is much like being born again, except that in this case the person already had the knowledge of who Christ was and had known his love and grace but had walked away from that.

 

[ltwin]

The Catholic Church isn’t trying to be “exclusive” when it makes certain criteria for baptism–it is endeavoring to do as Our Lord commanded.

For the record, CopticChristian did not say that, I did.

I was not making a judgment call about the Catholic Church. To me (and I could be wrong) Coptic Christian’s response to me seemed to take a jab at Pentecostals for not accepting infant baptism. However, in many ways Catholics are more exclusive when it comes to things like communion, while Pentecostals practice open communion for all Christians.

Indeed, it’s much more inclusive to baptize infants rather than exclude them from the sacrament that initiates one in the faith (see Acts 16:15 & 18:8; 1 Cor. 1:16); .

This is a fundamental difference in point of view between Catholics and Pentecostals. Pentecostals do not believe that baptism initiates one into the faith. Putting one’s trust and faith in Christ, confessing him as lord and savior, and receiving the grace and forgiveness that he offers into our lives does that. For this to happen, one must first hear and understand the Gospel. Thus, refusing to baptize infants is not excluding them from anything.

The Church does not believe anyone should be excluded because of age or infirmity (the severely mentally retarded can be baptized, as well, even though they do not know what is happening or why). Christ is for all people, not just those who can understand.

Pentecostals do not exclude anyone. Whosoever will let him come. We have ministered to and had mentally handicapped persons accept Christ in our church. Do they know the fine points of theology? No, but they know that Jesus loves them and lived, died, and rose again for them so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

For infants who die before reaching the point of being able to understand or for those who are mentally incapable of understanding whatever their age, we trust that we serve a God of love, mercy, wisdom, and justice and that he has everything under control.