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Salamander
Guest
So as not to confuse Righteousone or anyone else, you’re saying your dictionary trumps Pope John Paul II’s statements in the Houston Chronicle, in 1998?
“Pope Offers Catholics Time Out Of Purgatory By Y2K Indulgences”
The above was the headline of a recent article in the HOUSTON CHRONICLE (Nov 28, 1998, p. 26A).
The article said:
“Pope John Paul II announced Friday that throughout the millennium celebration, penitents who do a charitable deed or give up cigarettes or alcohol for a day can earn an 'indulgence” that will eliminate time in purgatory…
"The medieval church sold indulgences, a practice that drove Martin Luther to rebel, leading to the Reformation…
“The pope said individual sinners would be granted 'plenary indulgences,” a full pardon for sins as opposed to a shortening of the time spent in purgatory…He included personal acts of penitence or local charity as a way of earning an indulgence.
“Throughout the period, believers will be offered a wider selection of ways to receive a plenary indulgence. They may follow tradition and attend a Mass in one of several designated churches and perform such devotions as the rosary or the stations of the cross. Or, as an appendix to the pope’s letter explains, they may visit the sick, the imprisoned, or the handicapped, or give to the poor. Or they may choose an act of private sacrifice…This would include abstaining for at least one whole day from unnecessary consumption (for example, from smoking, or alcohol, or by fasting).”
bible.ca/cath-indulgences.htm
How can a man forgive sins? Only Jesus, the Christ, can forgive sin!Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
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jmcrae
Guest
Keep in mind that these are the words of a reporter; not the words of the Pope, or the language of the Church. The Church is very careful not to equate indulgences with “time off” Purgatory, as though there were the passage of time, as we understand it, in Purgatory. Rather, the Church speaks of partial and plenary indulgences, which remit either part (partial) or all (plenary) of the temporal punishment due to sins, thus either reducing or eliminating whatever it is that happens in Purgatory (which we don’t really understand very well).
As for how a man can forgive sins, look first at Luke 5:24, which says,
This shows us that Christ in His manhood (as well as, or in addition to, authority in His divinity) had authority to forgive sins.
Next, look at John 20:21-23 -
Quite clearly, Christ is passing on His authority to forgive sins (which we see in the first passage that He has in His manhood, and not merely in His divinity) to the Apostles, who in their turn passed it down to the Bishops and priests of today, by means of the Sacrament of Ordination, aka “the laying on of hands,” as St. Paul typically refers to it in his Epistles.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
** that it was compiled by the Roman Pontiff in 397 A.D. at the Councl of Carthage.**
Your history is a bit cockeyed. The pope had nothing to do witn the Council of Carthage. It was simply a local council of the African churches.
Your history is a bit cockeyed. The pope had nothing to do witn the Council of Carthage. It was simply a local council of the African churches.
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Righteousone
Guest
WRONG. IT IS A FACT OF HISTORY that the Council of Carthage, which was held in 397 A.D. mainly through the influences of St. Augustine, settled the collection or canon of NT Scriptures as we have them now, and decreed its decision should be sent on to Rome for confirmation. NO COUNCIL WAS EVER CONSIDERED BINDING OR AUTHORITIVE UNLESS IT WAS APPROVED BY THE ROMAN PONTIFF. period. It is history, what do you want from me?****Argue with God for making it so.
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patrick457
Guest
And she calls herself a Christian? Where’s her charity (the defining mark of the Christian, IMHO) in all this? How dare does she praise God and curse her neighbor using the same tongue?
Since she wouldn’t budge, the best you can do right now is pray for her. Let God sort it out.
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patrick457
Guest
Easy there. No wonder the woman’s said hard words to you. Words to the wise: Relax, take it easy and Never attempt to fight fire with fire. No need to be acerbic.
Yes, Carthage was a local Council (there was no general Council held in North Africa) and the African Church submitted its decision to the Roman Church for confirmation (the relationship between the African and Roman Churches was actually quite strong).
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peary
Guest
Do you even know what an ‘indulgence’ is?? It is apparent that you answer through ignorance. It always amazes me about nonCatholics coming into forums and telling Catholics what the Church teaches. Such arrogance!So as not to confuse Righteousone or anyone else, you’re saying your dictionary trumps Pope John Paul II’s statements in the Houston Chronicle, in 1998?
“Pope Offers Catholics Time Out Of Purgatory By Y2K Indulgences”
The above was the headline of a recent article in the HOUSTON CHRONICLE (Nov 28, 1998, p. 26A).
The article said:
“Pope John Paul II announced Friday that throughout the millennium celebration, penitents who do a charitable deed or give up cigarettes or alcohol for a day can earn an 'indulgence” that will eliminate time in purgatory…
"The medieval church sold indulgences, a practice that drove Martin Luther to rebel, leading to the Reformation…
“The pope said individual sinners would be granted 'plenary indulgences,” a full pardon for sins as opposed to a shortening of the time spent in purgatory…He included personal acts of penitence or local charity as a way of earning an indulgence.
“Throughout the period, believers will be offered a wider selection of ways to receive a plenary indulgence. They may follow tradition and attend a Mass in one of several designated churches and perform such devotions as the rosary or the stations of the cross. Or, as an appendix to the pope’s letter explains, they may visit the sick, the imprisoned, or the handicapped, or give to the poor. Or they may choose an act of private sacrifice…This would include abstaining for at least one whole day from unnecessary consumption (for example, from smoking, or alcohol, or by fasting).”
bible.ca/cath-indulgences.htm
Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
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ChristianRoots
Guest
The reason why that statement is wrong is because everything being the Bible, Bible, Bible is a man-made tradition. The early Christians never believed nor taught this concept. For them it was the Bible **and **Sacred Tradition.
If you think the Bible does say it is the most important thing when it comes to understanding God’s plan for salvation, what is the chapter and verse number?
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ChristianRoots
Guest
You’re mistaken.But the bible is the reference for Jesus’ words. Catholic Traditions dont say any new ideas from Jesus, or do they?
The Bible was put together by “Catholic Tradition.”
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Righteousone
Guest
No you are wrong. What do you mean no wonder she said hard words to me? I wasn’t even upset but CONTENT in what I was saying. I am the one who took it easy and was calm, she was a kook and a cult follower…everyone that day said they disliked her and her actions, she was like satan. Maybe it WAS satan.
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Gamera
Guest
I looked around this website. The author doesn’t have a clue about Catholicism. For instance, s/he lists alleged “doctrinal flip-flops” yet not one of the ‘examples’ is correct.
Some ‘examples’ aren’t even doctrines. Making the sign of the cross, for instance, isn’t a "doctrine,’ it’s just a custom.
When discussing examples that actually are doctrinal, s/he totally misunderstands the Catholic concept of a doctrinal definition. For instance, the claim that “nobody believed” in papal infallibility before 1870 is absurd – 1870 was merely the year the doctrine was formally defined. Doctrines aren’t formally defined until they are disputed. The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t formally defined for 300 years but that doesn’t mean it was “invented” then – that’s just Davinci Code thinking.
The other parts are even more foolish. For instance, it accuses Catholics of “worshipping Mary” which is absurd.
Really, an average Catholic school 8th grader could debunk that site. Dont’ be fooled by it.
“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,” John 20:23.
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peary
Guest
Really, an average Catholic school 8th grader could debunk that site. Dont’ be fooled by it.
I never trust a website that has a www.bible after it!
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patrick457
Guest
We won’t know for sure unless we see or ask her directly…Though yes, it might be a possibility.No you are wrong. What do you mean no wonder she said hard words to me? I wasn’t even upset but CONTENT in what I was saying. I am the one who took it easy and was calm, she was a kook and a cult follower…everyone that day said they disliked her and her actions, she was like satan. Maybe it WAS satan.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, there you go! Now you know what to do!I saw her today and she apologized again and I said “don’t be mad at me, be mad at history” to what she replied “don’t start”.
Do not make this harder than it is. Drop the subject, and let it lie until this woman brings it up again…and probably even then. Let your life do your preaching, and keep your mouth closed.
Period.
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patrick457
Guest
An indulgence, in Roman Catholic theology, is the full or partial remission of ‘temporal punishment’ due for sins which have already been forgiven. There are no days or years in Purgatory (or Heaven or Hell for that matter), so the popular idea that indulgences reduce one’s time in Purgatory is actually a mistake. Originally, indulgences had these number of days, months or years attached; those do not refer to the time spent in Purgatory, but to the time that was commensurate with what the early Christians got for doing penances for a certain length of time (which can make one remind of the gravity of his sins
).From John Paul II’s General Audience, Sept. 29, 1999:
Yep, no denying that happened. But does the Church TODAY sell indulgences? That’s the question.
Again, from JPII’s words:
Plus, in order to gain a plenary indulgence, one must exclude all attachment to sin of any kind, even venial sin, must perform the work or say the prayer for which the indulgence is granted, and must also fulfil the three conditions of sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and praying for the intentions of the Pope. So otherwise, many of them may have only got a Partial Indulgence.
In order to get a Partial Indulgence, you have to recite the prayer or do the act of charity assigned. You have to be in the state of grace at least by the completion of the prescribed work (which usually means going to Confession at that time). The other thing required is having a general intention to gain the indulgence. You won’t obviously gain an indulgence if you don’t want it.
Just as one poster already said, I would take a site’s content with a grain of salt if it has ‘bible’ on it’s site name.
Plus, you know how the media knows next to nil about religion, so whenever the media says something about Catholicism (‘crow’s ear’ anyone?), I would also take it with a grain of salt…
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Righteousone
Guest
No, I will not keep my mouth closed. I am a defender o fmy faith until the day I die. Unlike people who don’t stick up for their Catholic church, I cannot sit there and be ridiculed by anyone. I will say what I know and that’s that.Well, there you go! Now you know what to do!
Do not make this harder than it is. Drop the subject, and let it lie until this woman brings it up again…and probably even then. Let your life do your preaching, and keep your mouth closed.
Period.
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Righteousone
Guest
:knight1: :knight1: :knight2: :knight2:
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dosdog
Guest
Pretty Sure I do
What An Indulgence Is Not
It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer’s salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/07783A.HTM
Mortal sin destroys our union with God and the presence of sanctifying grace in our souls. Because these are heinous actions in the eyes of God, for a person to knowingly and willingly commit them indicates a turning away from the love of God. Anyone conscious of a mortal sin must undergo an interior conversion and then receive forgiveness and absolution through
the sacrament of penance.
While only God can probe the depths of our soul and judge a person, objectively, those actions are mortal sins. To choose mortal sin indicates a contempt for the divine law.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MORTSIN.HTM
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dosdog
Guest
John 20So as not to confuse
23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
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