People please help me with this one before I go insane

[LilyM]

No, she is a part of our coffee club. I bearly know her.

You barely know her and yet got into a knock-down drag-out argument with her? Even if she made the initial approach … dude, six-year olds know better than to use THAT excuse for continuing an argument.

I can get into KDDOs with my family because they know deep down I love 'em and I know they love me even when we do strongly disagree on things, but an almost-stranger?

 

[AgnosTheist]

No, she is a part of our coffee club. I bearly know her.

Then I supposed she was having cofee with her own friends, minding their own business, when you overheard her speaking badly about the catholic church. And then you decided to barge in like Rambo. Right?

 

[jimmy]

Then how about this site?: bible.ca/cr-lutheran.htm#articles

I do agree that works alone cannot save, and neither can faith alone. The Book of James speaks plainly in this area. James 2:18.

Salamander, that is one of the most vile websites on the internet. It completely distorts Catholicism. It is almost humorous. Another humorous, although quite disturbing, website is the Jesusislord website.

 

[jimmy]

If she is a Christian and curses a fellow Christians, she is only Christian by name but not in practice. She is a hyprocrite, the worst sinner of them all.

Watch out. No one can say this of anyone. Please watch what you say. Maybe the lady actually thought that righteousone was possessed. Be carefull not to judge.

 

[GatorMommy]

I am going to give RigheousOne the benefit of the doubt here. I’ve been in arguments with anti-Catholics before that started much the same way.

Most anti-Catholics think that Catholis are merely brainwashed heathens, regurgitating doctrines that have been drilled into their heads by little old nuns with yardsticks. They think that Catholics are ignorant of both Christ and the Bible.

I have talked with several antis who, once they realized that my tone remained neutral and that I knew both my Bible and history books backwards and forewards, they blew their tops. Most just aren’t trained to deal with Catholics who know their stuff and defend the faith with passion. It scares them and they lose control.

I’ve been yelled at, had a Bible thrown at me, and even been spat at because I stood my ground and remained calm. (A calm demeanor can make matters worse sometimes.) None of the acts were provoked nor did I see the tantrums coming until they were there.

I generally walk away, shaking my head, after I’ve promised to keep them in my prayers.

It’s easy to point fingers until you’ve been in one of these conversations.

And, for the record, if I were out in public and overheard someone berating the Church that Christ founded, I would say something, too. It’s called witnessing.

 

[a_priori]

Oh but she is dead in her heart.

Sorry. Not your call.

 

[Fidelis]

Then how about this site?: bible.ca/cr-lutheran.htm#articles

That site contains even more misinformation:

In the early 1500s, one of the ways the Pope made money for the Catholic church was by selling indulgences.

“The Pope” never sold anything. Luther’s (justified) outrage was against individuals, especially in Germany, who were distorting and abusing the legitimate concept of indulgences for their own ends.

Luther continued in his fight for religious reform for years to come. He translated the Bible into German so the common people could read and interpret it.

This is a fairy tale for Protestant children. Luther translated the Bible in to German NOT so the common man could read it (the “common man” of that time wasn’t able to read anyway). There were already several German editions of the Bible in print. He wrote his own version so he could add his own commentary of his pet theological ideas and insert words into the translation that don’t appear in the Bible (like inserting “alone” after “faith” in Romans 3:28), and so he could remove biblical books he didn’t like (like James because he said “Faith without works is dead” and Maccabees because it teaches about Purgatory).

Here: chew on these:

chnetwork.org/journals/sola/sola5.htm

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham_contents.html

 

[GatorMommy]

:clapping: Barvo, Fidelis!

 

[Righteousone]

You barely know her and yet got into a knock-down drag-out argument with her? Even if she made the initial approach … dude, six-year olds know better than to use THAT excuse for continuing an argument.

I can get into KDDOs with my family because they know deep down I love 'em and I know they love me even when we do strongly disagree on things, but an almost-stranger?

Lily, there is something seriously wrong when one interprets something to mean something else. Like I said and I REFUSE to repeat myself after this. She STARTED ranting and raving about the bible, how it suddenly dropped down from heaven. I, having studied bible history had to tell her HISTORICAL FACTS to set her straight.
Now I suppose you would of sat there and let her tell bold face lies to others, I couldn’t do that. All of the people there commended me for what I told her and how I acted.

So, saying this, there is only one person I need to answer to and that is Christ himself, not you or anyone else.
So if anyone else here wants to pick this apart, then I am all done with this.

 

[CBS]

I just don’t argue with people anymore…pointless.

If someone truly wants to know about the Church or about God etc. genuinely and sincerely then I will take the time to discuss and explain anything to that person. If it’s to argue and get in a shouting match I just walk away. It’s purely a waste of energy and time.

I always refer to the parable of the rich man, when Jesus told the rich man what he had to do and the rich man refused and walked away. Jesus did not chase after him and tell him what a bone head decision he was making. Jesus simply said what he had to say and then left it at that.

 

[Salamander]

Dear Salamander. You are absolutely right. NO ONE except Jesus can tell you what to do. But I would “suggest”, study some more, especially the history of the Caholic Church from its beginning, then I suggest you read about the Early Church Fathers, and then in about fifty years when you know enough to discourse, come back and let us see what you have learned. As Christ aslo said, “He who ears to hear, let him hear”. This goes for the female department too.

The Caholic? church…wow, now that is a Revelation! Just kidding! I know it was a type O.

I have read much of the “early catholic history” and how the “priests” became Bishops and took over whole areas of Europe and the splits, etc. I have also read about the “Early Church Fathers” as they are known, but I have a question. Why fifty years, why not now? How can I not deliver a lesson or sermon to someone from my Bible and teach them how to be “saved”? I don’t need a “priest” or “father” on earth to teach me “The Way”. I have been a Christian for more than 22 years. I only need God’s Word to show how someone must be saved; not the Catholic Church.

SO, to RighteousOne, I say this, you cannot refute the truth of the Bible and I would have a hard time convincing you as you would me. To me and others, the Bible and all it contains, is enough.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joint and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. And, there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:12f)

 

[jmcrae]

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joint and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. And, there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:12f)

…unless, of course you do not believe the book of Hebrews is inspired of God?

The word of God being referred to here is Jesus. The writer of the Letter to the Hebrews had no concept of a Bible - such a thing would not exist for another 300 or more years.

 

[elt1956]

The Caholic? church…wow, now that is a Revelation! Just kidding! I know it was a type O.

I have read much of the “early catholic history” and how the “priests” became Bishops and took over whole areas of Europe and the splits, etc. I have also read about the “Early Church Fathers” as they are known, but I have a question. Why fifty years, why not now? How can I not deliver a lesson or sermon to someone from my Bible and teach them how to be “saved”? I don’t need a “priest” or “father” on earth to teach me “The Way”. I have been a Christian for more than 22 years. I only need God’s Word to show how someone must be saved; not the Catholic Church.

SO, to RighteousOne, I say this, you cannot refute the truth of the Bible and I agree with you anymore than I can tell you you are wrong or misguided in your beliefs. To me and others, the Bible and all it contains, is enough.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joint and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. And, there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:12f)

…unless, of course you do not believe the book of Hebrews is inspired of God?

WELL!! You know how much we Catholics like beer. We even have wine at Mass. Can’t get away from it.:dancing:

I know in your heart you truly believe what you say. I think/know/believe we can all be instruments of God and lead people to His Grace, but I am personally glad I have more to depend on than only the Bible and myself to do this. I don’t mean that harshly. I’m just thankful there are more people and teachings out there to help me when I talk about the Catholic Faith to others. The readings in the Bible can be interpreted thousands of ways, as many ways as there are people on Earth. So I am secure in the fact there are so many more learned people than myself in the Catholic Church who have studied these teachings, who are very careful in their interpretations and can come to some kind of consensus as to the meaning of each. Jesus said, He is in each of us. And that I truly believe. I listen to Him, but I also put a lot of trust in the theologians of the Church. As you quoted, " For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit". The difference is we believe that the Church and its ministers can also be "living and active and sharper…in their interpretations of The WORD of God… Peace. P.S. I also believe God has the last WORD, which we may, or may not know.

 

[Elric]

No, she is a part of our coffee club. I bearly know her.

You barely know her, yet she has your phone number?

From post #82:

Yes I agree, but these people are taught to speak over you and I wasn’t going to allow that. It’s ok, she’s already called me 3 times out of guilt and out of the fact that what if I am right?

It seems as though you are trying to big-note yourself about how you “defended your faith” and you are trying to get some sort of validation for what you did. Unfortunatly for you, some people have picked up on your story not adding up and missing parts of it. So its not really working out the way that you thought.

 

[Righteousone]

You barely know her, yet she has your phone number?

From post #82:

It seems as though you are trying to big-note yourself about how you “defended your faith” and you are trying to get some sort of validation for what you did. Unfortunatly for you, some people have picked up on your story not adding up and missing parts of it. So its not really working out the way that you thought.

The only ones on here bashing me (and they seem to know-it-all), are non-Catholic Christians. So, I particularly don’t listen anymore, you non-Catholics are always trying to discredit the Catholics. Seems rather funny…and what’s wrong with {“defending my faith”? At least it isn’t “my own” as you say…what a joke.

 

[Righteousone]

WELL!! You know how much we Catholics like beer. We even have wine at Mass. Can’t get away from it.:dancing:

I know in your heart you truly believe what you say. I think/know/believe we can all be instruments of God and lead people to His Grace, but I am personally glad I have more to depend on than only the Bible and myself to do this. I don’t mean that harshly. I’m just thankful there are more people and teachings out there to help me when I talk about the Catholic Faith to others. The readings in the Bible can be interpreted thousands of ways, as many ways as there are people on Earth. So I am secure in the fact there are so many more learned people than myself in the Catholic Church who have studied these teachings, who are very careful in their interpretations and can come to some kind of consensus as to the meaning of each. Jesus said, He is in each of us. And that I truly believe. I listen to Him, but I also put a lot of trust in the theologians of the Church. As you quoted, " For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit". The difference is we believe that the Church and its ministers can also be "living and active and sharper…in their interpretations of The WORD of God… Peace. P.S. I also believe God has the last WORD, which we may, or may not know.

Then why in 1Tim. 3:15 does he say the CHURCH is the pillar of truth? The CHURCH came before the bible. The CHURCH is what Jesus told St. Peter to start. He did not tell Peter to ‘start a bible’.
You can believe what you want from Scripture and interpret it wrong, I KNOW otherwise.

 

[patrick457]

The Caholic? church…wow, now that is a Revelation! Just kidding! I know it was a type O.

Well, just as someone above pointed out, we Catholics have a penchant for alcoholic beverages such as wine (which is being used everyday at every Church, unless they are committing some type of abuse) or beer. Hey, the Lord’s been called a ‘glutton and a wine-bibber’, we’re just taking after Him.

I have read much of the “early catholic history” and how the “priests” became Bishops and took over whole areas of Europe and the splits, etc. I have also read about the “Early Church Fathers” as they are known, but I have a question. Why fifty years, why not now? How can I not deliver a lesson or sermon to someone from my Bible and teach them how to be “saved”? I don’t need a “priest” or “father” on earth to teach me “The Way”. I have been a Christian for more than 22 years. I only need God’s Word to show how someone must be saved; not the Catholic Church.

SO, to RighteousOne, I say this, you cannot refute the truth of the Bible and I would have a hard time convincing you as you would me. To me and others, the Bible and all it contains, is enough.

Here’s Cardinal Newman on the subject (1884):

“Surely then, if the revelations and lessons in Scripture are addressed to us personally and practically, the presence among us of a formal judge and standing expositor of its words is imperative. It is antecedently unreasonable to suppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly from the nature of the case, interpret itself. Its inspiration does but guarantee its truth, not its interpretation. How are private readers satisfactorily to distinguish what is didactic and what is historical, what is fact and what is vision, what is allegorical and what is literal, what is [idiomatic] and what is grammatical, what is enunciated formally and what occurs, what is only of temporary and what is of lasting obligations. Such is our natural anticipation, and it is only too exactly justified in the events of the last three centuries, in the many countries where private judgment on the text of Scripture has prevailed. The gift of inspiration requires as its complement the gift of infallibility.”

We may have a hard time convincing you (and vice versa), but IMO the Catholic approach is a better one. After all, suppose you buy a Bible from the bookstore, read through it and come to your own conclusions, how will you know if your interpretation of the Bible is right, especially if it contradicts on how your, say, neighbor interprets a particular passage? How will you know which of you is right? At least think it’s quite a blessing the Catholic Church is here around to all the ‘dirty work’ for us and is attempting to avoid this dilemma.
I mean, it’s Her book (at least we Catholics think it’s Her’s), so shouldn’t naturally She be the one who should do all this stuff?

As an aside, I suggest putting this debate in a new thread to prevent this one from derailing and crashing off.

 

[Elric]

The only ones on here bashing me (and they seem to know-it-all), are non-Catholic Christians. So, I particularly don’t listen anymore, you non-Catholics are always trying to discredit the Catholics. Seems rather funny…and what’s wrong with {“defending my faith”? At least it isn’t “my own” as you say…what a joke.

Going for the cheap shots again?

You saying that you are cathloic has absolutly nothing to do with the observations that have been made, remember that I did criticise the other person involved (and I still say that she was wrong) and she isnt cathloic.

In fact the only person showing any prejudice towards anything is yourself.

As far as defending your faith goes, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that. Its a question of how you go about it.

Going by your posts here, you have shown that you are unable to have an argument the way that you claim you had in your story.

You have been quite quick to get personal, hurl insults and be rude to those that dont agree with you. Honestly, why should anyone believe that that you would act differently elsewhere?

You can insult what I believe and try to provoke a reaction all you want, it wont change anything and it just makes it look more likly that you did provoke this woman and not act in the way that you claim to have acted.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Going by your posts here, you have shown that you are unable to have an argument the way that you claim you had in your story.

I absolutely agree. Look at how he portrays the woman as wild & out of control but look at the title of this thread…“please help me with this one before I go insane”. And he wanted to go back for a rematch.

I suspect this is a feud, not a religious defense.

 

[Righteousone]

Going for the cheap shots again?

You saying that you are cathloic has absolutly nothing to do with the observations that have been made, remember that I did criticise the other person involved (and I still say that she was wrong) and she isnt cathloic.

In fact the only person showing any prejudice towards anything is yourself.

As far as defending your faith goes, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that. Its a question of how you go about it.

Going by your posts here, you have shown that you are unable to have an argument the way that you claim you had in your story.

You have been quite quick to get personal, hurl insults and be rude to those that dont agree with you. Honestly, why should anyone believe that that you would act differently elsewhere?

You can insult what I believe and try to provoke a reaction all you want, it wont change anything and it just makes it look more likly that you did provoke this woman and not act in the way that you claim to have acted.

You can say anything you’d like about me because usually people who have “their own” religion are the ones who are the most unhappiest. So all your assumptions about me go right out the window. Perhaps you should look to your own soul, rather than be ready to tear apart another.
And really, the way it happened between me and this woman, is between me and this woman. You cannot judge others, but then again, you are taking things in “your own” hands.