Perfect + Imperfect = ??

[exoflare]

Emad:

I opened a thread about this issue before and I would like to discuss it again. How can God be God (perfect) and man (imperfect) at the same time. Can something be completely black and completely white at the same time? Can someone be blind and see at the same time? Also do Catholics believe God is in everything or can become anything?

It’s simple… Jesus is not the be-all-and-end-all of God’s entire essence. You’re drawing a false dichotomy when you say that if Jesus is God, then all of God’s attributes would have to be limited to His human nature.

Otherwise, I don’t know what you’re so confused about…

 

[inJESUS]

God does not sleep.

correct…but if God took an “additoonal” nature, then this nature must be what it is. That is, God is still God, but took a human nature in parallele so to speak…

lets say you are a children’s actress who took the role of a butterfly…does it mean that since you took an additional nature, you are not human being anymore? this is a silly example so don’t focus on it but understand the point…

You said that if God wants to eat, He can eat, but that doesnt mean He is hungry. Did Jesus get hungry?

We were created weak…God did not mean for us to be perfect. For example, we lie…does God lie? No. We steal. Does God steal? No

Jesus is sinless

. We get tured. Does God get tired? No.

human nature.

We are not perfect, we are not like God

you can’t compare being tired to imperfection cuz getting tired is “normal” and not “imperfect”

.

We dont create our own image of God, we are forbidden to do so. Everything that Emad has told you is within the context of what the Quran says (a revelation we believe *came *

from God)… we know…the point made is that a god who is perfectly understood by humans is no God.

where God tells us who He is. Does He tell us everything? NNo. We have only receieved little of the knowledge

since you don’t know the nature of God, why do you disagree when we talk about Trinity?

. But we dont make things up.

neither do we…either Jesus is what he said He is or he lied.

To be challenged is to be tested throughtout your life. To be challenged is not, from a Muslims’ point of view, be presented with an idea of God that doesnt make sense.

if it doesn’t make sense it doesn’t mean it is wrong…but to sit back saying that i don’t need to learn more about Allah cuzi know him enough is not what theology is about…so again, if you cannot fully know God’s nature, why do you argue if we talk about God who revealed it? if your reply is that islam contradicts it, am afraid it does not…mohamad only got it wrong…we neither associate partners with God nor do we worship Mary nor is Jesus God’s physical son nor do we worship 3 gods…we worship ONE God…the Trinity is His nature, not His number…and the Quran agrees.

 

[Emad]

exoflare:

It’s simple… Jesus is not the be-all-and-end-all of God’s entire essence. You’re drawing a false dichotomy when you say that if Jesus is God, then all of God’s attributes would have to be limited to His human nature.

Otherwise, I don’t know what you’re so confused about…

Even if it is not all of God, that still means that part of God has no shortcomings and part does. Also God has no shortcomings at all, if something that has .0000001 shortcomings is attributed to God it isn’t from Him. God has no shortcomings at all. Glory be to Him. He is High Above shortcomings and blemishes.

 

[exoflare]

Emad:

Even if it is not all of God, that still means that part of God has no shortcomings and part does. Also God has no shortcomings at all, if something that has .0000001 shortcomings is attributed to God it isn’t from Him. God has no shortcomings at all. Glory be to Him. He is High Above shortcomings and blemishes.

What shortcomings?

 

[Emad]

inJESUS:

lets say you are a children’s actress who took the role of a butterfly…does it mean that since you took an additional nature, you are not human being anymore? this is a silly example so don’t focus on it but understand the point…

Do you believe God pretended to be human or was He actually human? If a child pretended to be a butterfly they still have their full human attributes. However if a child actually becomes part butterfly they do lose their complete human nature and are no longer human, but human/butterfly.

 

[Emad]

exoflare:

What shortcomings?

Many, humans have many shortcomings, such as limited sight, dependence on food, sleep, relieving themselves etc. God sees everything humans don’t, thus we have a shortcoming in our sight.

 

[exoflare]

Emad:

Many, humans have many shortcomings, such as limited sight, dependence on food, sleep, relieving themselves etc. God sees everything humans don’t, thus we have a shortcoming in our sight.

Ultimately, humans are not “dependent” on food, sleep, or whatever… only their physical body is. Even should our earthly bodies expire, our true nature would never cease to exist in the spiritual realm. The only thing we are “dependent” on in the scope of eternity, then, is how perfectly we were aligned to God’s will. I know for a fact that even Muslims believe this very same thing (which is why you always hear them say “this life is only a test”). In that case, what value does food or sleep or any other physical thing have when you look at it from the perspective of eternity?

** (Sorry, I had to edit this a few times…)

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Faith101:

God does not sleep. We sleep because we get tired. We get tired b/c we are weak. God does not get tired, nor weak…do you agree? Then, why is God sleeping.

You said that if God wants to eat, He can eat, but that doesnt mean He is hungry. Did Jesus get hungry?

In an earlier post I quoted Old Testament scripture verses. My point was that God manifested Himself to Abraham in human form and Abraham recognized God and adored Him. Abraham then offered God food, drink and a place to rest and God accepted. Even though God does not require food, drink or rest He granted Abraham the grace of accepting that which he offered. God exhibited no weakness in eating, drinking and resting, but instead greatly blessed His servant Abraham by doing so.

Faith101:

We were created weak…God did not mean for us to be perfect. For example, we lie…does God lie? No. We steal. Does God steal? No. We get tured. Does God get tired? No. We are not perfect, we are not like God. That is why He is God and we are His creation.

God can only create perfection hence creation is judged by God to be good and humanity very good. God created Adam and Eve in a perfect and sinless state; and sinless is that which God wants us to be. Adam and Eve introduced “weakness” when they chose to disobey God by believing Satan; and by doing so passed on the propensity to sin to the entire human race.

Faith101:

We dont create our own image of God, we are forbidden to do so. Everything that Emad has told you is within the context of what the Quran says (a revelation we believe *came *from God)…where God tells us who He is. Does He tell us everything? NNo. We have only receieved little of the knowledge. But we dont make things up.

Wherever there is private interpretation there can be a different god, different truths, different faith and etc.

Faith101:

To be challenged is to be tested throughtout your life. To be challenged is not, from a Muslims’ point of view, be presented with an idea of God that doesnt make sense.

Then I would suggest that you hang up your Muslim misconceptions about Catholicism and take the time to understand Catholicism as a Catholic does. Faith is believing without seeing or fully understanding; what is there in Isalm that you take on faith? What is there in Islam that challenges you?

 

[inJESUS]

INJESUS you came to this conversation a bit late, your asking the same questions many others asked and answers are available in this thread. This time I will answer your questions, but if you ask questions that were already answered in the future I will simply ask you to go back and look for them in the thread.

if so i apologize…you can point to me the number of the post where you previously answered.

so you are saying that God can’t? so Allah in your opinion is limited? and why do you think God cannot take a body yet stay God? is it hard for the Creator of this world?

Yes God can only be God, He can’t be anything else. Not a human, dog, cat, food or anything else. you did not answer my question…does God have the ability to stay God but take an additional human nature? if no, why not?

Allah states that He can’t have a son in many places of the Quran.

it is meant in a physical sense, which is fine

He says that He is Most High, He says that He is All Powerful, He says that He is Qayum, He says that He is Ghane, He says that He is Ale, Adheem, Khaliq, etc.

fine but these are not his nature.

So anything that takes away from these attributes isn’t part of Him. He states what He is, that also shows what He isn’t. He says He is Allah therefore He is Allah and not human or animal.

who said God is a human and who said humanity took from his divinity?

Yes you can, but some things are just not acceptable to be part of God, it is common sense.

so i stand correct…your question of “how”, is irrelevant to “belief” cuz you CAN believe something even if you don’t understand it fully.

For example I can’t understand how God looks, but I certainly know He doesn’t look deformed. This is not an issue of how God does things, it’s how can you say two opposite things exist in one being.

neither of these 2 “things” substracts anything from each other…
you are using the negation approach : i don’t know about God but i know he can’t take an additional nature…

if you don’t know God, on what basis do you reject His ABILITY to take another additional nature yet stay God?

 

[inJESUS]

exoflare:

Ultimately, humans are not “dependent” on food, sleep, or whatever… only their physical body is. Even should our earthly bodies expire, our true nature would never cease to exist in the spiritual realm. The only thing we are “dependent” on in the scope of eternity, then, is how perfectly we were aligned to God’s will. I know for a fact that even Muslims believe this very same thing (which is why you always hear them say “this life is only a test”). In that case, what value does food or sleep or any other physical thing have when you look at it from the perspective of eternity?

** (Sorry, I had to edit this a few times…)

well expressed

 

[Emad]

you did not answer my question…does God have the ability to stay God but take an additional human nature? if no, why not?

I did answer it, no He can’t, because it is not perfect and complete like Him. Humans see but not perfect, God can see things, see through them, see in complete darkness etc. If you say God took on an additional attribute such as human sight, now your taking away from what He is.

who said God is a human and who said humanity took from his divinity?

Don’t you believe God became human or part human? As to why being part human takes away from his divinity look to what I wrote above.

so i stand correct…your question of “how”, is irrelevant to “belief” cuz you CAN believe something even if you don’t understand it fully.

Yes, however there are certain things that are impossible to be God or part of God. I think we both can agree on that, if you say no I will have to start asking you things that might be graphic, please don’t make me do that.

neither of these 2 “things” substracts anything from each other…
you are using the negation approach : i don’t know about God but i know he can’t take an additional nature…

if you don’t know God, on what basis do you reject His ABILITY to take another additional nature yet stay God?

I didn’t say I don’t know God, I said I don’t understand everything about God, but I certainly know God. I know He doesn’t relieve Himself, eat, drink, sleep or anything that has any sign of weakness or shortcoming to it.

 

[Contarini]

Emad,

You keep confusing limitations with shortcomings. A shortcoming implies that we are supposed to reach a certain goal but don’t. A limitation means that our nature is not infinite.

We are not talking about God taking on human shortcomings. Jesus was the perfect human being. We are talking about God taking on perfect, unfallen human nature with the limitations natural to it–even as the divine essence continues to be unlimited.

There some basic philosophical assumptions at work here, and I’m not sure how many of them are due to Muslim-Christian differences and how many of them are due to your own way of thinking which may not be traditionally Islamic.

For traditional Christians, the limitations of human nature are not bad and do not cut us off from God. Rather, our human nature with its limitations participates (in a limited, finite way) in God’s infinite Being. The Incarnation is possible because of this–God exists as a real human being with our limitations, but this does not limit God’s essence.

InJesus’ example of an actress is problematic, as you pointed out, because Jesus doesn’t just pretend to be human. Here’s another analogy:

An inlet of the sea is limited in a way that the sea is not. But the water in the inlet is still the salty water of the sea. Similarly, Jesus is fully divine, but His human nature is limited while His divine nature is not. It’s the same sea–the same divine Person–existing in both an unlimited divine nature and a limited human nature.

Here’s the real question: are divine and human opposites or is humanity a limited participation in divinity? Traditional Christians believe the latter; you appear to believe the former.

Edwin

 

[inJESUS]

i understand Emad’s point…his problem lies here :

If God is good, he can’t be evil : fine
If God is God, he can’t be human : not fine cuz humanity is not bad…Jesus was THE human being God wants us to be, which means : perfect. Sleeping, eating, getting hungry are not weakneses or limitations, but human nature, and since Jesus took a human body, then human he was

next : HOW can the divinity and human nature exist at the same time? well the answer is : He is God there are many “hows” that people cannot understand, but it doesn’t mean it is wrong

 

[Emad]

exoflare:

Ultimately, humans are not “dependent” on food, sleep, or whatever… only their physical body is. Even should our earthly bodies expire, our true nature would never cease to exist in the spiritual realm. The only thing we are “dependent” on in the scope of eternity, then, is how perfectly we were aligned to God’s will. I know for a fact that even Muslims believe this very same thing (which is why you always hear them say “this life is only a test”). In that case, what value does food or sleep or any other physical thing have when you look at it from the perspective of eternity?

** (Sorry, I had to edit this a few times…)

Even after we die we still don’t see everything, hear everything, know everything etc. And while we are in our physical body we do depend on food, drink, sleep etc, so to say God became a human for a limited time also makes Him dependent on those things for a limited time.

 

[inJESUS]

Emad,

You keep confusing limitations with shortcomings. A shortcoming implies that we are supposed to reach a certain goal but don’t. A limitation means that our nature is not infinite.

We are not talking about God taking on human shortcomings. Jesus was the perfect human being. We are talking about God taking on perfect, unfallen human nature with the limitations natural to it–even as the divine essence continues to be unlimited.

There some basic philosophical assumptions at work here, and I’m not sure how many of them are due to Muslim-Christian differences and how many of them are due to your own way of thinking which may not be traditionally Islamic.

For traditional Christians, the limitations of human nature are not bad and do not cut us off from God. Rather, our human nature with its limitations participates (in a limited, finite way) in God’s infinite Being. The Incarnation is possible because of this–God exists as a real human being with our limitations, but this does not limit God’s essence.

as usual, you put it in a very clear, simple way.

InJesus’ example of an actress is problematic, as you pointed out, because Jesus doesn’t just pretend to be human.

yes i know but i was trying to get the message across

Here’s another analogy:

An inlet of the sea is limited in a way that the sea is not. But the water in the inlet is still the salty water of the sea. Similarly, Jesus is fully divine, but His human nature is limited while His divine nature is not. It’s the same sea–the same divine Person–existing in both an unlimited divine nature and a limited human nature.

much better analogy

good posts

 

[Emad]

If God is God, he can’t be human : not fine cuz humanity is not bad.

I never said humanity is bad. I just said they are different and weaker than God, so if God were to be human He would also take our weaknesses.

Sleeping, eating, getting hungry are not weakneses or limitations, but human nature, and since Jesus took a human body, then human he was

Human nature not Gods nature. You are right, Jesus was human and a Prophet and Messenger and nothing else.

next : HOW can the divinity and human nature exist at the same time? well the answer is : He is God there are many “hows” that people cannot understand, but it doesn’t mean it is wrong

If I said God was X (use your imagination) and said How can God be God and X (use your imagination again) well the answer is He is God there are many hows that people can’t understand but it doesn’t mean it is wrong, would you accept that? If so I wish to replace X with some things and you tell me if you believe God can be both God and that thing.

 

[Emad]

A shortcoming implies that we are supposed to reach a certain goal but don’t.

Perhaps for us it is not a shortcoming, but when you attribute it to God it is a shortcoming for Him.

We are talking about God taking on perfect, unfallen human nature with the limitations natural to it–even as the divine essence continues to be unlimited.

This is where the question is. You are limiting God to what humans are and at the same time saying He isn’t limited to it. You can’t say you know everything then say you don’t know everything. You can’t say you see everything then say you don’t.

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

I did answer it, no He can’t, because it is not perfect and complete like Him. Humans see but not perfect, God can see things, see through them, see in complete darkness etc.

you are still confusing human limitation with imperfection.

If you say God took on an additional attribute such as human sight, now your taking away from what He is.

how do you take away when you add?

who said God is a human and who said humanity took from his divinity?

Don’t you believe God became human or part human?

we believe God took an additional human body, not that God ceized to be God when he took a human body.

As to why being part human takes away from his divinity look to what I wrote above.

Jesus was 100% man, 100% divine…his humanity doesn’t make His divinity less and his divinity doesn’t make him an omnipotent, omnipresent human.

Yes, however there are certain things that are impossible to be God or part of God. I think we both can agree on that, if you say no I will have to start asking you things that might be graphic, please don’t make me do that.

i know what you are talking about and i agree…God can’t be evil cuz he’s by definition good…so is humanity

I didn’t say I don’t know God, I said I don’t understand everything about God, but I certainly know God. I know He doesn’t relieve Himself, eat, drink, sleep or anything that has any sign of weakness or shortcoming to it.

still with weakness and shortcoming?

 

[Emad]

you are still confusing human limitation with imperfection.

Our hearing is limited and imperfect. Perfect hearing means we hear everything, unlimited hearing means we hear everything too.

how do you take away when you add?

If you have a paper with no holes in it, then you punch one hole and then another, did you take away from the paper or add to it?

still with weakness and shortcoming?

You don’t know or understand how God looks, but you know He doesn’t look like a frog rite?

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

I never said humanity is bad. I just said they are different and weaker than God, so if God were to be human He would also take our weaknesses.

it is the human nature of Jesus who had natural limitations, not his divinity…you are still mixing them…you still think that God became a human and ceized to be God…thats not the case…as to how did Jesus do this, well he did. We don’t know the “how” but we know that he did.

Human nature not Gods nature. You are right, Jesus was human and a Prophet and Messenger and nothing else.

what? Jesus was a human being, no one denies this. But he is the Word that became flesh.

next : HOW can the divinity and human nature exist at the same time? well the answer is : He is God there are many “hows” that people cannot understand, but it doesn’t mean it is wrong

If I said God was X (use your imagination) and said How can God be God and X (use your imagination again) well the answer is He is God there are many hows that people can’t understand but it doesn’t mean it is wrong, would you accept that? If so I wish to replace X with some things and you tell me if you believe God can be both God and that thing.

false analogy cuz you are comparing good with bad which is not the case.