Perfect + Imperfect = ??

[Emad]

false analogy cuz you are comparing good with bad which is not the case.

How do you know I was going to say something bad? I was going to mention something that has its own nature. There are many things I can mention.

 

[Emad]

it is the human nature of Jesus who had natural limitations, not his divinity…you are still mixing them…you still think that God became a human and ceized to be God…thats not the case…as to how did Jesus do this, well he did. We don’t know the “how” but we know that he did.

I am not saying He ceized to be God (though I believe if that did happen he wouldn’t be God), but God became partially human, which takes away from Him.

I think the problem here is that many think God is similar to humans and he isn’t. Not at all. He is nothing like we can imagine. Look at the universe, you know how big and great it is, that is nothing compared to God. It is nothing to Him. To say He came in it and became part of it and walked around in it is demeaning Him. You seem to believe God is like some kind of superman.

 

[inJESUS]

you are still confusing human limitation with imperfection.

Our hearing is limited and imperfect. Perfect hearing means we hear everything, unlimited hearing means we hear everything too. why don’t you have perfect hearing? is it cuz you have some illness or is it cuz ALL humans are like this? this is your human nature…you can’t be otherwise…

to be imperfect means that you can be better but fail…can you make yourself hear everything ? no cuz it’s not your “failure” but your “nature”. So human shortcomings are due to nature not to failure.

how do you take away when you add?

If you have a paper with no holes in it, then you punch one hole and then another, did you take away from the paper or add to it? depends on your point of view : you see it lacking, i see it : a paper WITH holes …anyway it’s a very limited analogy…take this one : if you add water and oil, did the oil become water or did the water become oil ? no, neither became the other but they coexist

still with weakness and shortcoming?

You don’t know or understand how God looks, but you know He doesn’t look like a frog rite?

yes cuz i know he is not physical…but can i say God cannot take a beautiful , perfect, sinless human body? that’s absurd…i agree that God cannot become which is bad or unholy, which is not the case. If a father shares the life of his son, does he ceize to be a father? does his act humiliate him? no.

 

[Emad]

why don’t you have perfect hearing? is it cuz you have some illness or is it cuz ALL humans are like this? this is your human nature…you can’t be otherwise…

to be imperfect means that you can be better but fail…can you make yourself hear everything ? no cuz it’s not your “failure” but your “nature”. So human shortcomings are due to nature not to failure.

Good point, now if God can be all-hearing and then makes himself into a being that doesn’t (willingly) isn’t this imperfect for Him? Also perfect in God’s sense is what real perfection is.
Lets say hearing is 100 parts, God has all 100 and that is what perfect hearing is. We have 2 parts, even if we hear perfectly with the 2 parts we have, we are still no where near the perfection of 100 parts. Maybe you can take away perfect and replace it with complete. We have incomplete hearing and God has complete hearing. Better?

 

[Emad]

depends on your point of view : you see it lacking, i see it : a paper WITH holes …anyway it’s a very limited analogy…take this one : if you add water and oil, did the oil become water or did the water become oil ? no, neither became the other but they coexist

Yes and the water stays water and the oil stays oil, it’s impossible for the two to be one. Also this is another time when you are focusing on the example and not the point. God is always God and humans are always humans. Just like water can’t become oil or oil water, God can’t become human nor humans God.

yes cuz i know he is not physical… but can i say God cannot take a beautiful , perfect, sinless human body? that’s absurd…i agree that God cannot become which is bad or unholy, which is not the case. If a father shares the life of his son, does he ceize to be a father? does his act humiliate him? no.
Look at the red and green you say He is not physical, then you say He becomes physical. As for the blue, what if the father wears diapers and wets his bed and drinks milk from his mom to share the life of his son, isn’t that humiliating?

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

I am not saying He ceized to be God

good

(though I believe if that did happen he wouldn’t be God),

not good

but God became partially human, which takes away from Him

wrong again…God did not become partially human being…God remained God, but took an additional human nature… this is the point you must start with.

I think the problem here is that many think God is similar to humans and he isn’t. Not at all. He is nothing like we can imagine. Look at the universe, you know how big and great it is, that is nothing compared to God. It is nothing to Him. To say He came in it and became part of it and walked around in it is demeaning Him. You seem to believe God is like some kind of superman.

Lol…

One question : demeaning? why?

 

[Faith101]

correct…but if God took an “additoonal” nature, then this nature must be what it is. That is, God is still God, but took a human nature in parallele so to speak…

That doesnt make sense.

lets say you are a children’s actress who took the role of a butterfly…does it mean that since you took an additional nature, you are not human being anymore? this is a silly example so don’t focus on it but understand the point…

come on, you know that analogy doesnt fit.

you can’t compare being tired to imperfection cuz getting tired is “normal” and not “imperfect”

Its normal for you and me, b/c we are humans. Is barking normal for you? Barking is normal for a dog. What is normal for us is not normal for God. We sleep, because we get tired. God does not get tired, He doesnt need to sleep, even after creating the whole universe.

we know…the point made is that a god who is perfectly understood by humans is no God.

Please quote any Islamic source that says that Muslims believe that we understand God fully.

since you don’t know the nature of God, why do you disagree when we talk about Trinity?

The same reason why I disagree with the Hindu concept of multiple fractions making up one God.

neither do we…either Jesus is what he said He is or he lied.

He never told anyone that he is god or that he should be worshipped. He directed people to worship the ONE God, that sent him.

…so again, if you cannot fully know God’s nature, why do you argue if we talk about God who revealed it? if your reply is that islam contradicts it, am afraid it does not…mohamad only got it wrong…we neither associate partners with God nor do we worship Mary nor is Jesus God’s physical son nor do we worship 3 gods…we worship ONE God…the Trinity is His nature, not His number…and the Quran agrees.

That whole drama has been talked about on one of these threads, and those verses were explained in great detail.

You believe that Allah is one of three, and three in one at the same time. IT makes no sense to me. If it makes sense to you, then by all means, you have your religion and i have mine

 

[inJESUS]

why don’t you have perfect hearing? is it cuz you have some illness or is it cuz ALL humans are like this? this is your human nature…you can’t be otherwise…

to be imperfect means that you can be better but fail…can you make yourself hear everything ? no cuz it’s not your “failure” but your “nature”. So human shortcomings are due to nature not to failure.

Good point, finally can we agree now that the idea of God taking a human nature is not demeaning cuz to “imperfection” idea?

now if God can be all-hearing and then makes himself into a being that doesn’t (willingly) isn’t this imperfect for Him? Also perfect in God’s sense is what real perfection is.
Lets say hearing is 100 parts, God has all 100 and that is what perfect hearing is. We have 2 parts, even if we hear perfectly with the 2 parts we have, we are still no where near the perfection of 100 parts. Maybe you can take away perfect and replace it with complete. We have incomplete hearing and God has complete hearing. Better?

yes yes, i understood your questions the first time i read your posts

you are asking simply : how did Jesus or God combine the 2? right?

shall we now move from the idea of imperfection vs perfection and move to the “how”?

 

[Faith101]

In an earlier post I quoted Old Testament scripture verses. My point was that God manifested Himself to Abraham in human form and Abraham recognized God and adored Him. Abraham then offered God food, drink and a place to rest and God accepted. Even though God does not require food, drink or rest He granted Abraham the grace of accepting that which he offered. God exhibited no weakness in eating, drinking and resting, but instead greatly blessed His servant Abraham by doing so.

We dont beleive that God blesses his servants by becomming one of them. He is GOD.

God can only create perfection hence creation is judged by God to be good and humanity very good. God created Adam and Eve in a perfect and sinless state; and sinless is that which God wants us to be. Adam and Eve introduced “weakness” when they chose to disobey God by believing Satan; and by doing so passed on the propensity to sin to the entire human race.

If we were created perfect, Adam would have never sinned. Perfection belongs only to Allah, not to Adam or any of us.

Faith is believing without seeing or fully understanding; what is there in Isalm that you take on faith? What is there in Islam that challenges you

Great question…inshAllah i will get to it later, as i have about 10 mins to get to work

 

[Emad]

finally can we agree now that the idea of God taking a human nature is demeaning cuz to “imperfection” idea?

Nice taking my words out of context, but I do agree to what I have in blue above

you are asking simply : how did Jesus or God combine the 2? right?

shall we now move from the idea of imperfection vs perfection and move to the “how”?

When I ask how I don’t ask for an explanation like step 123. Now if you wish we can make God, God and something else and then we will bring in the “how” idea, what do you think?

 

[inJESUS]

That doesnt make sense.

to whom?

come on, you know that analogy doesnt fit.

thats why i said do not focus on it but get the meaning

Its normal for you and me, b/c we are humans.

so was Jesus , a human being as well.

Please quote any Islamic source that says that Muslims believe that we understand God fully.

exactly, you don’t…so what doesn’t make sense to your human mind is not necessarily false…cuz if you accept only what makes sense about God then you are limiting Him to your human capacity, hence projection.

The same reason why I disagree with the Hindu concept of multiple fractions making up one God.

why? since you don’t know the nature of Allah, why do you reject others who talk about God’s nature? if you object on something is because you know it is otherwise…but since you don’t know, they why argue?

He never told anyone that he is god

now really, did you really expect him to say he is God in an explicit manner? let’s be rational, do you even know what effect it must have had?

As to being worshipped, well he was and he never refused it.

. He directed people to worship the ONE God, that sent him

correct… but the half truth…cuz Jesus is not half of what he said, but all.

That whole drama has been talked about on one of these threads, and those verses were explained in great detail.

dunno which one you are refering to.

You believe that Allah is one of three, and three in one at the same time. IT makes no sense to me

we believe in One God…if you don’t understand Trinity, it doesn’t mean we believe in 3 gods so the quran agrees : One God.

 

[Emad]

This is off topic, but I have to ask, InJesus is this forum your job? Or are you off today?

 

[inJESUS]

Nice taking my words out of context,

why? you said : good point and my point was : human limitation is not imperfection; so the idea that God took an “imperfect” body is wrong.
what is the point you agree with in blue? the verse? well i gave you a free online book that explains all these verses but you are reluctant

the invitation applies to Faith who knows arabic as well

When I ask how I don’t ask for an explanation like step 123. Now if you wish we can make God, God and something else and then we will bring in the “how” idea, what do you think?

LOL i didn’t understand.

 

[inJESUS]

As a side note : we all agree that we are mind, body and soul…ever wondered how the spiritual soul coexists with the physical body ?

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

This is off topic, but I have to ask, InJesus is this forum your job? Or are you off today?

no it’s not my job…i work in charity… am not off…am home coz it’s night here and am going to bed in a while

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

depends on your point of view : you see it lacking, i see it : a paper WITH holes …anyway it’s a very limited analogy…take this one : if you add water and oil, did the oil become water or did the water become oil ? no, neither became the other but they coexist

Yes and the water stays water and the oil stays oil, it’s impossible for the two to be one

. Also this is another time when you are focusing on the example and not the point. God is always God and humans are always humans. Just like water can’t become oil or oil water, God can’t become human nor humans God. wrong…the Church does not teach that the 2 natures became one

yes cuz i know he is not physical

… but can i say God cannot take a beautiful , perfect, sinless human body? that’s absurd…i agree that God cannot become which is bad or unholy, which is not the case. If a father shares the life of his son, does he ceize to be a father? does his act humiliate him? no.

Look at the red and green you say He is not physical, then you say He becomes physical

Jesus was not physical…He is eternal, like He said.

As for the blue, what if the father wears diapers and wets his bed and drinks milk from his mom to share the life of his son, isn’t that humiliating?

wrong approach…human nature is not humiliating unless you think it is…diapers, milk, ecc are the natural process of human beings, nothing to be ashamed of, nothing “humiliating”, nothing “imperfect”.

 

[exoflare]

Emad:

Even after we die we still don’t see everything, hear everything, know everything etc.

Separate topic altogether…

Emad:

And while we are in our physical body we do depend on food, drink, sleep etc, so to say God became a human for a limited time also makes Him dependent on those things for a limited time.

Based on what? You’re still trying to imply that having God assume human form means that his entire essence was limited to that physical human form. That’s the only way your assertion that humans are “dependent” on food and sleep and stuff would make any sense. But if this isn’t even true for any other human being (which, as I’ve already shown, Muslims agree), then what makes you think that it would suddenly be different if God were to become human?

 

[Emad]

inJESUS:

LOL i didn’t understand.

You said that we shouldn’t ask how God can be man and human. And God does things but we don’t understand the how. Let me replace human with something else. Would you accept that?

 

[Emad]

exoflare:

Separate topic altogether…

Based on what? You’re still trying to imply that having God assume human form means that his entire essence was limited to that physical human form. That’s the only way your assertion that humans are “dependent” on food and sleep and stuff would make any sense. But if this isn’t even true for any other human being (which, as I’ve already shown, Muslims agree), then what makes you think that it would suddenly be different if God were to become human?

No even if it was partially, that means part of Him depended on food.

 

[Emad]

inJESUS:

As a side note : we all agree that we are mind, body and soul…ever wondered how the spiritual soul coexists with the physical body ?

A soul in a body is different than **GOD ** the great in a body.