Performing sin is just matter of time

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STT said:
How long could you resist a sin when temptation is very strong?
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Moving ahead in time away from Adam and Eve…

Now as I noted one (a Christian in grace) can yes resist a temptation.

Even if it goes on for a long time.

Now does that mean the he will never commit any venial sins? No. For he will normally speaking…he will not go long before some small sin is committed. Where he gives in at least in part in his will. Such is a matter of his weak will (after the fall) and the current state of things and difficulty of living* all the virtues* at one time (which are at times of an opposite nature) etc. Be it eating too many oreos or not telling a quick little lie when caught of guard etc etc.

Tis not though “just a matter of time”-- but of will…

(Thankfully if he can quickly turn in prayer to the Lord and be forgiven.)
 
Bookcat said:
No flaw in the story.

The flaw was in the Devil …(this is getting off topic - so I will set that aside)

And could have not necessarily “known” that Adam would sin either.

He is not God.
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I was told that Angels are very intelligent therefore there is no flaw in the Devil but the story.
 
STT said:
I was told that Angels are very intelligent therefore there is no flaw in the Devil but the story.
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Nope there is not flaw in the account of the events there.

None.

Angels are not God.
 
Bookcat is correct to say sin is a matter of the will. “Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death.” (Jas 1:15) However, sin has a temporal quality. For God incarnated into the temporal to establish victory over sin. “My kingdom is not of this world.” (Jn 18:36) “if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.” (Col 3:1) The will - divinized into the Trinity - “By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.” (2 Pet 1:4) - seeks its integrity of which our first ‘parents’ had before the first sin. Consider the five transcendentals: (1) perfect knowledge/truth, (2) perfect love, (3) perfect justice/goodness, (4) perfect beauty, and (5) perfect home/being - these are realized only in *act * within the context of heaven.
The matter at hand is not time, but the whole is found when we train our will to “seek the things that are above”. When Jesus says, “Be perfect” what this means is to accept Himself, so that the soul may train itself to perform every intention with knowledgeable hope. Hope is certain and it is always directed to heaven. When sin occurs in the face of healthy catholic Hope, the performance of sin is remote.
 
The OP said, Moral obligation and temptation work against each other. This dualistic viewpoint is unfounded in what is revealed. For St. John says, “No one, who is born of God commits sin, but the grace of God preserves him.” (1 Jn 5:18) I will not go into Augustine’s explanation of this verse, however it is well worth mentioning - for this verse is often misinterpreted.

When someone is obligated by the New Law - “the grace of God preserves him” - if they do not walk by the flesh (cf. Gal 5:16, Rom 8:5), but rather the walk by the Spirit. Saint Thomas Aquinas, explains walking by the flesh as disordered self-love.

If we find our love in our own dualistic perspective, vis. subject vs. object, or Moral obligation vs. temptation. Or if we do not find the order to the supreme end, but rather love our own take in the moral life (self-love) the result will be vain. Nevertheless, if we *translate *our earthly self-love of thirst to our own spiritual thirst (5 transcendentals) we succeed. “Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give shall never thirst.” (Jn 4:14) Saint Augustine says, “if anyone has drunk of the water of paradise of which one drop is larger than the ocean- it results that the thirst of earthly desire would be extinguished in him.”
 
animalis said:
The OP said, Moral obligation and temptation work against each other. This dualistic viewpoint is unfounded in what is revealed. For St. John says, “No one, who is born of God commits sin, but the grace of God preserves him.” (1 Jn 5:18) I will not go into Augustine’s explanation of this verse, however it is well worth mentioning - for this verse is often misinterpreted.

When someone is obligated by the New Law - “the grace of God preserves him” - if they do not walk by the flesh (cf. Gal 5:16, Rom 8:5), but rather the walk by the Spirit. Saint Thomas Aquinas, explains walking by the flesh as disordered self-love.

If we find our love in our own dualistic perspective, vis. subject vs. object, or Moral obligation vs. temptation. Or if we do not find the order to the supreme end, but rather love our own take in the moral life (self-love) the result will be vain. Nevertheless, if we *translate *our earthly self-love of thirst to our own spiritual thirst (5 transcendentals) we succeed. “Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give shall never thirst.” (Jn 4:14) Saint Augustine says, “if anyone has drunk of the water of paradise of which one drop is larger than the ocean- it results that the thirst of earthly desire would be extinguished in him.”
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Do you still have the desire to drink after drinking the water in paradise? Fulfilling desires is related to self-love which we can never get ride of it.
 
STT said:
Why do we sin if performing sin is only matter of the will?
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Why? or in other words: For what reason? Reason, being a rule of thought including content, (logic being a rule of thought without content) in its own operation is non-functional unless the will is incorporated. In any command, that is the outcome of reason, the will may choose to abide the past commands or decide a new course to maneuver the complexity of life.

Regardless, we sin when the will chooses to love the self over the common good, with its own rules apart from our love. For what reason? a disordered will.

Saint Augustine says in his On True Religion, all sin is voluntary (a choice of the will). (14, 27) He says in his City of God: “sin is evil because it harms natural good.” (12, 6) In his Nature and Grace, he says: “the soul has grace as the light whereby human beings are good, and without which they cannot do good.” (n.26)
 
STT said:
Why do we sin if performing sin is only matter of the will?
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It is not “only” a matter of the will…in that more is not involved. The point is that sin happens in the will.
 
STT said:
Do you still have the desire to drink after drinking the water in paradise? Fulfilling desires is related to self-love which we can never get ride of it.
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In paradise, all potentiality is not to be, and it is the state in which the only context is the absolute and ultimate pure actuality. Desire requires potential, at most when we are on this earth. Once the soul leaves the body, the potential to repent is gone - and it receives its desserts. With total actuality there is total acceptance, only if the supreme good, pursued on earth is met at her judgment. If the soul receives the grace of God in vain - it dragged down by its own self-condemnation in the sight of the actual truth.

You provided a substantiated opinion by a Doctor of the Church, St. Theresa of Avila, when you said “fulfilling desires is related to self-love which we can never get rid of it.”
 
animalis said:
Why? or in other words: For what reason? Reason, being a rule of thought including content, (logic being a rule of thought without content) in its own operation is non-functional unless the will is incorporated. In any command, that is the outcome of reason, the will may choose to abide the past commands or decide a new course to maneuver the complexity of life.

Regardless, we sin when the will chooses to love the self over the common good, with its own rules apart from our love. For what reason? a disordered will.

Saint Augustine says in his On True Religion, all sin is voluntary (a choice of the will). (14, 27) He says in his City of God: “sin is evil because it harms natural good.” (12, 6) In his Nature and Grace, he says: “the soul has grace as the light whereby human beings are good, and without which they cannot do good.” (n.26)
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Are we rational being? If yes why do we sin? Performing sin apparently is against rationality. Isn’t it?
 
STT said:
I don’t understand what you are trying to say here?
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Ones passions, disordered desires, external temptations etc can be involved in sin.

It is not like one is just ones will.

But in order to sin - ones will is key.

One wills the sin - it does not “just happen”. Certainly it is not “just a matter of time”.
 
animalis said:
In paradise, all potentiality is not to be, and it is the state in which the only context is the absolute and ultimate pure actuality. Desire requires potential, at most when we are on this earth. Once the soul leaves the body, the potential to repent is gone - and it receives its desserts. With total actuality there is total acceptance, only if the supreme good, pursued on earth is met at her judgment. If the soul receives the grace of God in vain - it dragged down by its own self-condemnation in the sight of the actual truth.
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So we turn into God?
animalis said:
You provided a substantiated opinion by a Doctor of the Church, St. Theresa of Avila, when you said “fulfilling desires is related to self-love which we can never get rid of it.”
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What is your opinion about that?
 
Bookcat said:
Ones passions, disordered desires, external temptations etc can be involved in sin.

It is not like one is just ones will.

But in order to sin - ones will is key.

One wills the sin - it does not “just happen”. Certainly it is not “just a matter of time”.
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Hmm. The will just allows evil. We as rational agents don’t need will to avoid sin.
 
STT said:
Hmm. The will just allows evil. We as rational agents don’t need will to avoid sin.
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Huh?

No it not just a question of “allowing evil” though yes that is one example of sin (and yes it done in the will).

One sins in ones will.

Lots of things may temp one …and one not sin.

One not “consent” to them.
 
STT said:
We perform sin if there is no moral obligation.
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Could you give examples how sin happen if there is no moral obligation. Sin is acting against God. If I did nothing wrong against God , how did I sin?
 
ericc said:
Could you give examples how sin happen if there is no moral obligation. Sin is acting against God. If I did nothing wrong against God , how did I sin?
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You just need to deeply don’t believe on certain things and believe on other certain things.
 
Bookcat said:
Huh?

No it not just a question of “allowing evil” though yes that is one example of sin (and yes it done in the will).

One sins in ones will.

Lots of things may temp one …and one not sin.

One not “consent” to them.
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I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
 
STT said:
You just need to deeply don’t believe on certain things and believe on other certain things.
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That is not what I asked.

How would one sin if there is no moral obligation? You made a statement but I fail to see how that is possible. So I ask you to provide examples. Believing deeply on certain things such as I think the earth is flat doesn’t make it a sin if there is no moral obligation to do so. There are 2 parts. One is moral and the other obligation. If a belief has no moral significance, there is no sin. If a belief has no obligation, it doesn’t impose a requirement on me to comply.

Hence you need to provide examples that support your assertion.
 
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