L
Lapell
Guest
It’s like those Jewish plays open to anyone because “you don’t have to be Jewish”…
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K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’ve never thought of Christianity as infectious so it didn’t worry me.It’s like those Jewish plays open to anyone because “you don’t have to be Jewish”…
L
Lapell
Guest
Congratulations, Kaninchen!
Now, what are you referring to by “that ‘glass darkly’ bit from Corinthians” ?
L
Lapell
Guest
Neither have I thought the same about Jewish novels and plays… I mean “infectious” in a negative way, of course.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Corinthians Ch13:Congratulations, Kaninchen!
Now, what are you referring to by “that ‘glass darkly’ bit from Corinthians” ?
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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Lapell
Guest
Maybe it may sound somehow like a blow to those who would have thought that all you have to do to want to become a Catholic or a Christian is to read the Gospels and the New Testament… like by magic!!! HashemEchad and yourself (maybe Valke2 also?) are good examples that such thought would need to be re-examined, aren’t you?
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Lapell
Guest
Ah yes! That!.. I also like the passage where God says: "I never said to the Sons of Israel: “Look for me in empty things!” " (I don’t remember where it is, but I think it’s either Isaiah or Jeremiah…
L
Lapell
Guest
Receive God like a child, but with an adult’s mind!
K
Kaninchen
Guest
If you want to know why people think the way they think, the way they ‘see’ the world, you have to get insight into their world - it’s intellectual archeology. Even those of us who live in ‘post-Christian’ world (one way of ‘seeing’ Western Europe) know that there remains a legacy of the Christian paradigm.
Of course, there are people who study different religions because they are ‘seeking’, others do it because it’s just interesting!
K
Kaninchen
Guest
To somebody who spent far too many years at University than sometimes seems sensible, it had other meanings!
L
Lapell
Guest
Such as?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Ockham can be your friend.
V
Valke2
Guest
In Judaism, when terms like “A glass darkly” is used, it often refers to the fact that Moses received God’s word direct, as opposed to the prophets who received God’s word through a dark lense, or foggy lense, meaning not directly, either by dream or vision.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I have actually gotten a lot of good from my reading of the NT; I just don’t regard it as sacred scripture the way I regard the Tanakh (“Old Testament”).
Much of what Jesus said was very profound and true, but also, much of what he said was taken from Jewish sources, also (Kabbalah, Tanakh, etc)
My husband is a former Christian (now a Jew), but he agrees with me that it is not necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. We find much that is good and uplifting in the NT, but that does not mean we have to accept it the same way Christians do.
B
Brian_Millar
Guest
Of course he takes things from Jewish sources, he was a Jew afterall. I like where he fufills the law, then justifies it to it’s time, then intevenes with the law that supercedes it. An eye for an eye for example, replaced with love your enemy, turning the other cheek, and the like, a much more peacful approach towards how to deal with transgressors, he in a nutshell is saying vengance is the Lords, that to rely upon him for these matters puts you more in line with God, for God is the only true judge. It makes alot of sense, for maiming your enemy for what they have done to you, doesn’t bring back the eye that was taken from you in the first place, it was meant to end the madness, yet at the same time, the original law was there in order to allow the Jews to survive in that time, for the world was a different place and it had to accomodate a different law, otherwise, they would have been wiped off of the face of the planet by their enemies.
I’d like to know, what is it that was explained about the Messiah, that was not fufilled by Christ? What element do you think was missing?
I’d like to know, what is it that was explained about the Messiah, that was not fufilled by Christ? What element do you think was missing?
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Valke2
Guest
All of them. Putting the lineage question aside.
M
MrS
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrS forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I can only assume that those predictions and prophecies are not recognized by the Jews as pointing to Jesus Christ. Personally I find that very strange. But I accept that God works in His time, not mine.
Perhaps one day your Bible will include the New Testament.
The Qur’an, huh… ohwell, some in Islam are anti-Christian too.
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Originally Posted by MrS forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I can only assume that those predictions and prophecies are not recognized by the Jews as pointing to Jesus Christ. Personally I find that very strange. But I accept that God works in His time, not mine.
Quote:
Perhaps one day your Bible will include the New Testament.
Nice… subtle, spiteful, …
The Qur’an, huh… ohwell, some in Islam are anti-Christian too.
.
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Lapell
Guest
“All of them” to us is rather vague. Don’t forget the God-fearing Gentiles who are really interested to what are supposed to be all the works of the Messiah!
BTW, do all Sages of Israel agree on them?
Thanks and God bless you!
A
ALotLessThumb
Guest
This is a huge thread, and unfortunately I am unable to read to the whole thread; but I thought I’d contribute my own personal experience and thoughts (however little that is) on this topic:
This topic (proselytism) is so contentious because the subject elicits philosophical/emotional differences that are so clearly divergent between our Christian and Jewish bretheren that it is a hard topic to discuss. Nor am I satisfied that either side often understands sufficiently the other’s position due to lack of proper communication.
The OP, to me, fails to realize that Christianity cannot function without missionary work, “The Bringing of the Gospel to All,” and does not recognize that Christianity believes itself to be a “completion” of the Judaic convenant, now universial. So when the OP complains about proselytizing, to some (especially observant Christians) it is seems insulting- because it goes against Christian belief not to, and it seems disrespectful when someone tells another how to practice beliefs. It is an indirect way of saying that “I believe your faith is a fallacy/fantasy” without affording the otherside respect by making a direct accusation of a belief/practice.
What some Christians fail to take into account is that preaching the good news, and spreading the gospel should not rely on force/badgering/coercison/etc- which unfortunately, history has failed to show on a consistent basis. It will be an awfully long time before some of these wounds heal, and Christians must be patient and respectful of that. Christians also fail to realize that not all religions are exactly “orthodox”- based (center on the right beliefs.) I don’t think I am too inaccurate to account Judaism, traditionally speaking, as more “orthopraxy”- based (right practices.) So conversion has become an alien thought within that faith. (I say alien since at one time it seems to have been practiced to some extent at one point, proselytize originally referred to conversion to Judaism after all.) The perfect example of this is when the poster Valke2 and someone else on one of these last pages got into a discussion/debate about relativism. I’d suggest that to the Christian mind, when the Jewish faith talks about gentiles having their own “deals” with God- it sounds as if they are saying in that “new age” way that it is all good. This is alien to the Christian ear. Yet, it has been a thought deeply rooted in Judaism for millenia, and just as it seems insulting to the Christian not to proselytize, it seems equally so to the Jewish faith that someone is asking them to abandon the convenant God placed them under.
The different reasons for this is so deeply rooted in the cultures of both that it is hard to navigate in a way that wouldn’t upset either group. The very way of thinking on both sides are completely different and almost untranslatable.
For myself, I am horribly (and I mean horribly) torn between the two systems, to the extent of madness and almost despair. It is funny that I have noticed all these Jewish/Christian threads on here recently, because I was just thinking about starting several to help with my own peace of mind. I am sorry to say to my Christian bretheren that as it stands at this very moment I cannot in good conscious profess to being a Christian- and until otherwise I will practice the Noahidic Commandments.
This topic (proselytism) is so contentious because the subject elicits philosophical/emotional differences that are so clearly divergent between our Christian and Jewish bretheren that it is a hard topic to discuss. Nor am I satisfied that either side often understands sufficiently the other’s position due to lack of proper communication.
The OP, to me, fails to realize that Christianity cannot function without missionary work, “The Bringing of the Gospel to All,” and does not recognize that Christianity believes itself to be a “completion” of the Judaic convenant, now universial. So when the OP complains about proselytizing, to some (especially observant Christians) it is seems insulting- because it goes against Christian belief not to, and it seems disrespectful when someone tells another how to practice beliefs. It is an indirect way of saying that “I believe your faith is a fallacy/fantasy” without affording the otherside respect by making a direct accusation of a belief/practice.
What some Christians fail to take into account is that preaching the good news, and spreading the gospel should not rely on force/badgering/coercison/etc- which unfortunately, history has failed to show on a consistent basis. It will be an awfully long time before some of these wounds heal, and Christians must be patient and respectful of that. Christians also fail to realize that not all religions are exactly “orthodox”- based (center on the right beliefs.) I don’t think I am too inaccurate to account Judaism, traditionally speaking, as more “orthopraxy”- based (right practices.) So conversion has become an alien thought within that faith. (I say alien since at one time it seems to have been practiced to some extent at one point, proselytize originally referred to conversion to Judaism after all.) The perfect example of this is when the poster Valke2 and someone else on one of these last pages got into a discussion/debate about relativism. I’d suggest that to the Christian mind, when the Jewish faith talks about gentiles having their own “deals” with God- it sounds as if they are saying in that “new age” way that it is all good. This is alien to the Christian ear. Yet, it has been a thought deeply rooted in Judaism for millenia, and just as it seems insulting to the Christian not to proselytize, it seems equally so to the Jewish faith that someone is asking them to abandon the convenant God placed them under.
The different reasons for this is so deeply rooted in the cultures of both that it is hard to navigate in a way that wouldn’t upset either group. The very way of thinking on both sides are completely different and almost untranslatable.
For myself, I am horribly (and I mean horribly) torn between the two systems, to the extent of madness and almost despair. It is funny that I have noticed all these Jewish/Christian threads on here recently, because I was just thinking about starting several to help with my own peace of mind. I am sorry to say to my Christian bretheren that as it stands at this very moment I cannot in good conscious profess to being a Christian- and until otherwise I will practice the Noahidic Commandments.
V
Valke2
Guest
It was a vague response to a vague question. Regarding the second part of your question, I’m sure there is disagreement among the Sages. An example would be the issue of whether the Messiah will bring a new Torah or simply a new way of understanding Torah.
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