Perhaps my time here is over

[Valke2]

I decided to have a look at the link suggested by Icemoon about David Klinghoffer’s interview with two journalists, one Jewish and the other Christian.
Then there was a title where Rabbi David Wolpe would say why Jews don’t believe in Jesus. A certainly informative interview it was. But then, he says something rather surprising: “Jesus was born in Rome.” Where did he take that? I assume he was not saying this metaphorically… Sounds a bit like those who say Jesus was in Cachemire!!

It does sound a bit odd. I would guess he meant born under roman rule, or in the time of the Roman empire.

 

[Lapell]

Maybe, Valke2. Other than that, I think he presents the Jewish point of view very honestly. It seems to me, though, that some of the things the rabbis argue may come from a misunderstanding of what Jesus says.
Even if there were no deliberate meaning-twisting on their part, it could happen, you know!

 

[Lapell]

But about what Rabbi Wolpe was referring to, it had to do with half-gods in Roman mythology. And then he said: “Jesus was born in Rome.” I don’t see how it would have any bearing with the observant Jewish families in Galilee and Judaea, whose religion was Judaism!

 

[MementoMori3283]

It does sound a bit odd. I would guess he meant born under roman rule, or in the time of the Roman empire.

Or he could hold the position of some prominent polemics who proffer that Jesus- the man- did not exist at all. Hence, he was “born in Rome”.

 

[Righteousone]

From the beginning of the Christian religion, Christians have tried all sorts of inventive ways to convince our people to join their religion.

They have tried force/threats/expulsion/kidnapping of our children, and in more modern times, deception (seemingly justified by I Cor), love-bombing and the like.

None of it works for the vast majority of Jews.

This should tell Christians something.

And most of the time, it worked. I can name 100 Jews converted to christianity, mainly Catholics over the centuries. One in particular was the brilliant philosopher Edith Stein.

 

[HashemEchad]

And most of the time, it worked. I can name 100 Jews converted to christianity, mainly Catholics over the centuries. One in particular was the brilliant philosopher Edith Stein.

Stein, by her own admission in her writings, was not a religious Jew. She said she converted to Catholicism from atheism.

Why not read her writings and see for yourself?

The PRIMARY reason why Jews converted to Catholicism in medieval times and into the 1800s was a) to save their lives, because Catholic monarchs often threatened them with “baptism or death”, or b) they did it (mostly 1700s-1800s) to advance socially and in the business world (because often, only Christians got the best jobs and academic positions.)

When you shove your religion down our throats, you can’t really blame those of us who took advantage of the opportunity to use it for OUR best interests.

 

[HashemEchad]

Or he could hold the position of some prominent polemics who proffer that Jesus- the man- did not exist at all. Hence, he was “born in Rome”.

Quite possibly. That’s my own position as well, that Jesus never existed, and was actually a composite of several personalities in Judea of that time.

 

[Brian_Millar]

Quite possibly. That’s my own position as well, that Jesus never existed, and was actually a composite of several personalities in Judea of that time.

But voicing it here, us Christians think it to be blasphemous to utter words like that, opinion or not, this is not up for debate at all.

 

[HashemEchad]

But voicing it here, us Christians think it to be blasphemous to utter words like that, opinion or not, this is not up for debate at all.

Christians are free to believe what they wish to, I never meant to imply otherwise.

I was simply saying what I believe, and what many others also believe.

 

[Brian_Millar]

What if I were to say all Jews are going to hell because that is my opinion? Wouldn’t that be a hurtful thing to say, afterall, it’s just an opinion? How about if an athiest came here and told you that God was just a fabrication, would you stand by and let them rant about it unabated? You literally are saying this to us in these words about Christ, I don’t think anybody comes here to listen to Christ being besmeeched, or downgraded to mere fabrication, especially to the point where you say Jesus the man never even existed. What if someone told you their opinion was that the holocost never existed, that it was all made up, would you sit by and say and do nothing about it and keep reading their rants?

 

[HashemEchad]

What if I were to say all Jews are going to hell because that is my opinion? Wouldn’t that be a hurtful thing to say, afterall, it’s just an opinion? How about if an athiest came here and told you that God was just a fabrication, would you stand by and let them rant about it unabated? You literally are saying this to us in these words about Christ, I don’t think anybody comes here to listen to Christ being besmeeched, or downgraded to mere fabrication, especially to the point where you say Jesus the man never even existed. What if someone told you their opinion was that the holocost never existed, that it was all made up, would you sit by and say and do nothing about it and keep reading their rants?

Actually, I have had Christians say to me that Jews are headed for hell for not believing in the Christian deity. Even Christians on THIS forum have said it!

Did it offend me? Actually, no. Why not? Because I know its not true. The only way people can truly be offended at what others say is if, on some level, they secretly fear what the other person says MAY be true.

 

[Brian_Millar]

Your assumption is false about what you think people think, trust me on this one. So, you aren’t offended when someone tells you the holocost never happened then?

 

[HashemEchad]

Your assumption is false about what you think people think, trust me on this one. So, you aren’t offended when someone tells you the holocost never happened then?

No. Because I know it did happen, my father lost members of his family to it.

You really can’t be offended at what someone says if you know with a surety that its not true. You can only be truly offended when you fear, on some level, that perhaps they might be right.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Quite possibly. That’s my own position as well, that Jesus never existed, and was actually a composite of several personalities in Judea of that time.

So, since this is the non-Catholic religions thread, help me understand how the world will recognize the Messiah? All the prophecy that Jesus did not fulfill, how will they be proven when the Messiah comes? Davidic lineage? Gathering{with his own hands} all the Jews home? War, no where in the world? Who will testify for this man when he comes?

Also, this concept of every Jew returning to Torah, does this apply to orthodox, reform, fundamentalist, Messianic, converted, et al?

 

[Brian_Millar]

I certainly would be offended if someone told me, and others that it never happened. Spreading words like that to others will also reinforce their lack of belief that it existed, this in turn is diminishing what happened, it diminishes all that suffered, for you to stand by and say nothing, you are contributing to that lie, as a Jew especially, you should take offense to someone spreading that rumor. Punishment was extended to all German people’s that stood by, knowing full well what was going on and did nothing about it, for to do nothing about it, you are in effect, contributing to it.

There is something that’s strongly stressed to modern day Jews, and that is to never forget what happened, I guess you don’t follow that decree, you are perfectly happy to allow others to promote false statements like that, and by doing so, you yourself are also contributing to them by not taking action and speaking against them…

This is why I take offense in a “Christian” forum when someone tells me they believe Jesus was a mere fabrication.

 

[HashemEchad]

I certainly would be offended if someone told me, and others that it never happened. Spreading words like that to others will also reinforce their lack of belief that it existed, this in turn is diminishing what happened, it diminishes all that suffered, for you to stand by and say nothing, you are contributing to that lie, as a Jew especially, you should take offense to someone spreading that rumor. Punishment was extended to all German people’s that stood by, knowing full well what was going on and did nothing about it, for to do nothing about it, you are in effect, contributing to it.

There is something that’s strongly stressed to modern day Jews, and that is to never forget what happened, I guess you don’t follow that decree, you are perfectly happy to allow others to promote false statements like that, and by doing so, you yourself are also contributing to them by not taking action and speaking against them…

This is why I take offense in a “Christian” forum when someone tells me they believe Jesus was a mere fabrication.

I think you misunderstand. I would not allow someone to make a claim (such as that the Nazi genocide did not happen) without rebutting it.

But in America, we have freedom of speech. I would never try to silence someone who expressed a view, no matter how unpopular. I would rebut it, but I would not try to censor it.

I defend the rights of all people to express their views, even very unpopular ones. This does not mean, however, that I do not believe in answering such charges.

 

[Righteousone]

Stein, by her own admission in her writings, was not a religious Jew. She said she converted to Catholicism from atheism.

Why not read her writings and see for yourself?

The PRIMARY reason why Jews converted to Catholicism in medieval times and into the 1800s was a) to save their lives, because Catholic monarchs often threatened them with “baptism or death”, or b) they did it (mostly 1700s-1800s) to advance socially and in the business world (because often, only Christians got the best jobs and academic positions.)

When you shove your religion down our throats, you can’t really blame those of us who took advantage of the opportunity to use it for OUR best interests.

What difference does it make, Stein had a STRICT JEWISH UPBRINGING, she was Jewish. Are you denying she wasn’t a Jew? Whether she was an atheist or not, she was still Jewish. She had two Jewish parents… I am not talking about the Middle Ages, I am talking about now. Jews are converting now on their own. Catholics don’t stick religion down your throats like the Evangelicals do, it’s just not our style.

 

[HashemEchad]

What difference does it make, Stein had a STRICT JEWISH UPBRINGING, she was Jewish. Are you denying she wasn’t a Jew? Whether she was an atheist or not, she was still Jewish. She had two Jewish parents… I am not talking about the Middle Ages, I am talking about now. Jews are converting now on their own. Catholics don’t stick religion down your throats like the Evangelicals do, it’s just not our style.

It makes a very great difference, as Stein herself recognized. She reiterated, time and again, in her writings, that she did not, in her view, convert from Judaism, but from atheism. She states that she gave up the practice of Judaism long BEFORE becoming Catholic.

This reminds me of the Rosalind Moss situation. She, too, is often misrepresented as someone who converted to Catholicism from Judaism, but what is often left out/glossed over is that she was an Evangelical Protestant for 18 YEARS before becoming Catholic. So in her case she was a convert from Evangelical Protestantism.

My late mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism from Roman Catholicism, but if she had rejected the Catholic church long BEFORE finding Judaism, I would not refer to her as a convert to Judaism from Catholicism, but as a convert to Judaism from no religion at all.

Do you understand, at all, what I am trying to say?

As for your claim that “Catholics don’t stick religion down your throats like evangelical Protestants do”, well, suffice it to say I would never have known that if this forum was my only experience with Catholics.

I have had MANY blatant attempts by Catholics to proselytize me on this forum…including by YOU! Why do you think I had to change my sig line from Micah 6:8 to the one I have now?

 

[Righteousone]

It makes a very great difference, as Stein herself recognized. She reiterated, time and again, in her writings, that she did not, in her view, convert from Judaism, but from atheism. She states that she gave up the practice of Judaism long BEFORE becoming Catholic.

This reminds me of the Rosalind Moss situation. She, too, is often misrepresented as someone who converted to Catholicism from Judaism, but what is often left out/glossed over is that she was an Evangelical Protestant for 18 YEARS before becoming Catholic. So in her case she was a convert from Evangelical Protestantism.

My late mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism from Roman Catholicism, but if she had rejected the Catholic church long BEFORE finding Judaism, I would not refer to her as a convert to Judaism from Catholicism, but as a convert to Judaism from no religion at all.

Do you understand, at all, what I am trying to say?

As for your claim that “Catholics don’t stick religion down your throats like evangelical Protestants do”, well, suffice it to say I would never have known that if this forum was my only experience with Catholics.

I have had MANY blatant attempts by Catholics to proselytize me on this forum…including by YOU! Why do you think I had to change my sig line from Micah 6:8 to the one I have now?

Please, I would never try and convert you, only Jesus could. And you can get out of whatever you want to say about Stein, she was Jewish and that’s that. Just like some of the writers of the holocaust and the Inquisition who were Jewish and became Catholic on their own.

 

[Icemoon]

Please, I would never try and convert you, only Jesus could. And you can get out of whatever you want to say about Stein, she was Jewish and that’s that. Just like some of the writers of the holocaust and the Inquisition who were Jewish and became Catholic on their own.

We can go for the more extreme examples like Freud and Marx.

Whether one is Jewish or not is immaterial. God doesn’t care if you want to opt out. If a Jew wants to forsake the Torah, that’s his perogative.

So what if Stein was Jewish?

The onus is on you to show she has not, a strict Jewish upbringing, but a good Torah upbringing. And my question is, how do you know she has a proper Torah upbringing if you don’t even understand the Torah at all?