Perhaps my time here is over

[FaithofAbraham]

Wow, that’s a pretty wild belief about Jesus, if you don’t mind me saying so.

How did you arrive at it?

There’s an inherent clue with that son being killed for David’s sin of having Uriah killed in battle. So the boy’s death saved the kingdom of David from enemies of God.

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Then the story of Jesus has him dying again to save the people to bring them into the kingdom he saved with his first death.

So Jesus was conceived in dishonor with Bathsheba, resurrected in glory through Mary:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

And then there is the “virgin” prophecy.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And also Suffering Servant prophecy:

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

What could be more dry than a root out of death?

Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

And also what the Quran says about Jesus:

Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

Adam was dust in death. So Jesus was also created from the dust of death.

And other things.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This is definitely not a Christian belief. We don’t believe in reincarnation at all.

It’s not reincarnation, it’s resurrection of the dead, same spirit same body. You certainly believe in that.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

You have been rather lecturing them you know (including on Shabbat with other things going on as well?). I realize that I don’t have much room to talk (given my “it’s all just ‘Harry Potter/Lord of The Rings’ to me” approach) but I don’t spend much time on this part of CAF.

Any non-Catholic, never mind non-Christian (you should see, week in and week out what the Muslim posters have to contend with) has to be pretty philosophical here, no matter how experienced. I’ve not got your experience, only the experience of too many years than I like to think about on message boards (including the ‘good old days’ of unmoderated boards with numbers of hard-line anti-Semites) and I have to say that CAF can be rather good fun if you just sit back a bit and, without giving an inch, join in when there’s something you’re particularly interested in or know something about.

I did state, numerous times, that I am not strictly Orthodox but I do recognize the Orthodox as the most authentic of practitioners of Judaism.

My level of observancy is much stronger than most (American) Jews, but certainly not to the level of the strictest of the Orthodox. Judaism is not an “all or nothing” religion; we recognize that all Jews are at differing levels of observance, and that’s OK. As long as a Jew does not commit idolatry, sexual immorality or murder, they have not done anything to warrant excommunication.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not reincarnation, it’s resurrection of the dead, same spirit same body. You certainly believe in that.

David’s son was several days old when he died; Jesus was a zygote when He entered Mary’s womb. I can believe that he was resurrected (and I know that some day, he will be), but I don’t believe that he reversed in age.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

As long as a Jew does not commit idolatry, sexual immorality or murder, they have not done anything to warrant excommunication.

What about if they say God is a fairy tale and doesn’t exist? Most Jews I know say atheism is ok.

 

[Kaninchen]

I did state, numerous times, that I am not strictly Orthodox but I do recognize the Orthodox as the most authentic of practitioners of Judaism.

My level of observancy is much stronger than most (American) Jews, but certainly not to the level of the strictest of the Orthodox. Judaism is not an “all or nothing” religion; we recognize that all Jews are at differing levels of observance, and that’s OK. As long as a Jew does not commit idolatry, sexual immorality or murder, they have not done anything to warrant excommunication.

Hey, I don’t see myself as a paragon - I know I’m much more ‘observant’ than I am ‘religious’, if you get what I mean - it was just that you were so admiring of authenticity while doing something that I wouldn’t do, ie post on Shabbat.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

It’s not reincarnation, it’s resurrection of the dead, same spirit same body. You certainly believe in that.

I don’t know if you realize this or not, but Judaism believes in transmigration of souls; its in the Kabbalah.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

David’s son was several days old when he died; Jesus was a zygote when He entered Mary’s womb. I can believe that he was resurrected (and I know that some day, he will be), but I don’t believe that he reversed in age.

But I assume you believe God can resurrect anyone at whatever age He wants.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t know if you realize this or not, but Judaism believes in transmigration of souls; its in the Kabbalah.

I know there is reincarnation in Judaism, but that’s not what I believe regarding Jesus.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Hey, I don’t see myself as a paragon - I know I’m much more ‘observant’ than I am ‘religious’, if you get what I mean - it was just that you were so admiring of authenticity while doing something that I wouldn’t do, ie post on Shabbat.

I personally have no problem posting on Shabbos, as long as it doesn’t involve my job/work. I tend to live in an isolated area, and I use the internet for communication with other Jews. I also belong to an online Torah study group, and yes, we post on Shabbos because we are all in distant areas and that is our only form of fellowship.

But I would never go shopping or go to work on Shabbos. I also keep strictly glatt kosher. It all depends on how one looks at it.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

What about if they say God is a fairy tale and doesn’t exist? Most Jews I know say atheism is ok.

Not believing in God could be regarded as a form of idolatry, because they are replacing belief in God with a belief in atheism.

Something does not need to be an actual statue in order to be an idol.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not believing in God could be regarded as a form of idolatry, because they are replacing belief in God with a belief in atheism.

Something does not need to be an actual statue in order to be an idol.

Well that’s good you seem not to agree with atheism. That’s my biggest complaint with Jews, that many tolerate it, more than my complaint about rejecting Jesus since Christian teaching is partly to blame for that.

 

[Righteousone]

I never said I teach about Christianity. I said I have studied Christianity in order to understand it, and in order to counsel young Jews who get involved in it.

Then if you studied Christianity, you should feel CLOSER to the Catholic faith after you read about the Early Church Fathers, the Scripture readings that show Jesus did in fact start the Catholic church, and how there is an unbroken line of succession of popes since St. Peter for 2,000 years. Wouldn’t that bring you closer??

 

[Delraek]

I personally have no problem posting on Shabbos, as long as it doesn’t involve my job/work. I tend to live in an isolated area, and I use the internet for communication with other Jews. I also belong to an online Torah study group, and yes, we post on Shabbos because we are all in distant areas and that is our only form of fellowship.

But I would never go shopping or go to work on Shabbos. I also keep strictly glatt kosher. It all depends on how one looks at it.

Hi CarolsDaughter,

I know nothing of Judaism, but I’m curious about the observation of the Sabbath because of postings from Seventh Day Adventists on this forum. Where are the “rules” to abide by when it comes to the Sabbath? What kinds of things are considered ok? How about driving (since the OT obviously doesn’t say anything about it!)? I guess the bottom line is how do you know what exactly is ok and what isn’t?

Thanks!

 

[PaulDupre]

You misunderstand. I NEVER said Judaism is better than Christianity. I said Judaism is the only religion FOR JEWS.

FOR JEWS. This is because GOD said so. He gave us a Covenant He did not give to anyone else. If you read what you call the Old Testament, you will see this.

Gentiles can worship in any religion they choose. We do not try to convert them. We are not a missionary faith.

Go in peace and worship as you wish. But if you truly love the Jewish people, you will encourage any Jews you know to follow Torah and BE JEWISH. Because that is what God wants for them.

What about all of the OT teachings about the Hebrew nation being a light to the gentiles and a blessing to the gentiles and the messiah gathering “all the nations”, not just the Jews? We believe that Christianity is just that - the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, the gathering in of the gentiles by Jesus the Messiah by adoption into Israel.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

I don’t know if you realize this or not, but Judaism believes in transmigration of souls; its in the Kabbalah.

Is Kabbalah considered real Judaism or a pagan pollution of Judaism? What would your rabbi say about it?

Paul

 

[twopekinguys]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT

Maybe I’m being a little simplistic here, but 1. I have never seen a Jew,(or a person of any other faith) dragged to the Baptismal Font. 2. I’ve never seen anyone “returned” to their original faith at the request of that faith.

What ever happened to free will?

 

[LutheranDK]

I only found this forum a few days ago, while doing an online Google for customs and legends surrounding Holy Week (I was looking up something my late mother had told me years ago).

That online search led me to this forum, where there was a thread about the subject I was researching.

I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics than to Protestant fundamentalists (many of whom have disgusted me with their blatant attempts to proselytize me, including a “born again” nurse who had the nerve to try to missionize me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill.)

I really thought Catholics were different, nicer, more respectful of the beliefs of others (at least in more modern times, anyway). And with many of you, that is the case.

What Christians don’t realize is, when you shove your beliefs onto others even after they clearly inform you they are not interested (and in fact, can adequately show why they don’t believe in your faith), you really turn people off.

I have worked with devout Catholics in both the pro-life and homeschool communities, and we have always gotten along so well. We have found much common ground on moral issues. And none have ever tried to proselytize me.

I find I am feeling differently about Catholics since being here, and I don’t like it. I want to believe that (most) Catholics are truly decent people who learned their lessons from the days of the Inquisition, and who believe in the American princple of respect for the religions of others.

But I think for me to return to the feelings I had previously, I need to leave this forum. I wish that were not true, but it seems it is.

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

But I am also active in the ecumenical mvmt, which means I work to try to find common ground between Jews and Christians. Because of this, I work to help Jews understand Christianity, and to help Christians understand Judaism. There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Shalom aleichem/pax vobiscum,

Carol’s Daughter

You probably don’t read this, but I’m gonna go ahead and answer anyway:

We as Christians have a DUTY to “proselytize”. It is at the very core of our belief - not to keep truth to ourself, but to spread the good word.
Asking Christians to give up mission is like asking an orthodox Jew to stop keeping kosher. And I severely doubt the “faith” of those who have made a conscious decision to stop “proselytizing”.

I agree - that nurse showed a HORRENDOUS lack of sense of propriety, but that is not an argument against mission in itself.

 

[planter654]

Well then you know you can accept Jesus as human Messiah, so there is no problem there.

As for lineage, I say Jesus is the son of David and Bathsheba who God killed for David’s sin. Then he was resurrected into Mary and was killed for sins of all Jews. So he was born of a miracle like Isaac was. And he was the real Messiah, not his younger brother Solomon whose reign ended in failure for following other gods.

As for fulfilling ALL the prophecies, Jesus is the light of the Gentiles when it comes to a human Messiah of Israel. And as Suffering Servant he must be rejected first before he can prevail in the end to complete his job, just like Elijah must also return.

So there is precedence for everything about Jesus, if you study enough. And no really good reason to argue against him as Messiah.

Please explain was “resurrected” into Mary?

God Bless

 

[Righteousone]

I don’t know if you realize this or not, but Judaism believes in transmigration of souls; its in the Kabbalah.

Well, I know many Jews who reject this “Kabbalah”.