Perhaps my time here is over

[Ani_Ibi]

CarolsDaughter:

Jews were forced to be baptized in the Middle Ages.

By secular authorities who wanted to grab their land. The Pope ordered the secular authorities to allow the people concerned to return to Judaism if they wished. Many did not wish because they did not trust the secular authorities.

CarolsDaughter:

Don’t they teach the history of the Inquisition in Catholic schools?

Yes, they do – to the infinite displeasure of those who wrongfully use it to flog the Church.

Rather than state so eloquently what you are against, why not state what you are for? What purpose does anti-Catholicism serve in people’s lives? Hint: none.

By the way, trying to lure Catholics away from their faith is frowned upon here. Why? Because it shows a lack of respect and is predatory.

 

[twopekinguys]

When I say “Judaism” what I mean is Torah observance. The only spirituality for Jews is Torah observance as outlined by God in the Torah. This is not my creation, but what God Himself has said.

Isn’t this what I was asking in Post 169?

 

[HashemEchad]

By secular authorities who wanted to grab their land. The Pope ordered the secular authorities to allow the people concerned to return to Judaism if they wished. Many did not wish because they did not trust the secular authorities.

Yes, they do – to the infinite displeasure of those who wrongfully use it to flog the Church.

Rather than state so eloquently what you are against, why not state what you are for? What purpose does anti-Catholicism serve in people’s lives? Hint: none.

By the way, trying to lure Catholics away from their faith is frowned upon here. Why? Because it shows a lack of respect and is predatory.

I’m not trying to lure Catholics away from their religion. My only concern is keeping Jews Torah observant, or leading Jews to become Torah observant. Catholics have nothing to do with that. As to what I am for, that’s easy: Torah.

My reason for staying here is to try to help Catholics understand Judaism, if that is their wish.

As for anti-Catholicism, I am not anti-Catholic. Half my family is Catholic. But I am a student of history, hence my mentions of the persecutions which are widely known.

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m not trying to lure Catholics away from their religion. My only concern is keeping Jews Torah observant, or leading Jews to become Torah observant. Catholics have nothing to do with that. As to what I am for, that’s easy: Torah.

My reason for staying here is to try to help Catholics understand Judaism, if that is their wish.

As for anti-Catholicism, I am not anti-Catholic. Half my family is Catholic. But I am a student of history, hence my mentions of the persecutions which are widely known.

But as has been demonstrated earlier, your confusion in mixing the Spanish Inquisition with what is called the Papal Inquisition, Roman Inquisition, or just Inquisition unfortunately shows lack of study, or not believing the information presented. These were two different inquisitions, and the Spanish Inquisition was instituted by the Spanish Monarchy, and not Rome.

I have to agree with the earlier poster, Ani lbi “By the way, trying to lure Catholics away from their faith is frowned upon here. Why? Because it shows a lack of respect and is predatory.”

As I said in post 169, if a Jewish person becomes a Christian, Catholic or otherwise, they probably weren’t Jewish in Spirit were they?

If I understand you correctly, you believe that once a Jew, always a Jew, even if they convert. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case, and I am sure any Jew that has converted to a Christian religion would say the same thing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes. I would think it would be self evident. The only thing that may not be self evident is that there is room in Judaism for the belief that Christianity is right for Christians. And that God speaks to other peoples in other ways.

Can I ask more questions without sounding as ignorant as I am?

Are you speaking to tradition then? That a person who’s familial tradition is Jewish, that person is better suited to Judaism by the fact that they were born into a family that is of that tradition?

And likewise, someone who is born into a Christian tradition, is better suited to Christianity?

Do you think it not suitable for a Christian to convert to a non-Christian tradition, whether that be Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc?

And the same for Jew, it isn’t suitable to convert to a non-Jewish tradition?

What of someone who’s tradition is secular?

 

[Righteousone]

One thing to keep in mind is that the very definition of Messiah means one thing to a Christian and another thing to a Jew. Like so many things in the Scripture, we look at the same thing and reach different conclusions.

But it is so clear in your OT that Jesus is the Messiah it isn’t funny.
Everything was and is said about Jesus, yet you still deny.

 

[HashemEchad]

But it is so clear in your OT that Jesus is the Messiah it isn’t funny.
Everything was and is said about Jesus, yet you still deny.

It is only clear TO YOU (and other Christians). To those Jews (like me) who are very well-versed in the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the Christian testament, it is not so clear.

Christian translators deliberately distorted the meaning of expressions when they translated from the Hebrew to the Greek and Latin. They realized that many of the passages they wanted to refer to Jesus, didn’t sound so clear (notably Is 7;14, Ps 69, Ps 22), so they changed them a bit.

Jewish scholars (and even many nonJewish scholars) know this. We don’t mind if believing in Jesus helps Gentiles. But it is not for US.

How would you feel if someone took your scriptures and deliberately misused them? And then, to rub salt into the wound, beat you over the head with your OWN scriptures, claiming you are “blind” for not seeing the distortions as ‘truth’?

I understand why Christianity is so desperate to a) convert Jews and b) convince themselves that the Jewish Scriptures refer to their messiah…because Christianity stands or falls on JUDAISM. Without Judaism, Christianity has no reason to exist. And they know that.

Please note I am NOT trying to convince Catholics not to be Catholics. Gentiles can worship in any religion they want.

ALL I am trying to say is IT IS NOT FOR JEWS. Normally I would not even say this, but because you are trying to proselytize me, I will show WHY I do not believe.

 

[Righteousone]

It is only clear TO YOU (and other Christians). To those Jews (like me) who are very well-versed in the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the Christian testament, it is not so clear.

Christian translators deliberately distorted the meaning of expressions when they translated from the Hebrew to the Greek and Latin. They realized that many of the passages they wanted to refer to Jesus, didn’t sound so clear (notably Is 7;14, Ps 69, Ps 22), so they changed them a bit.

Jewish scholars (and even many nonJewish scholars) know this. We don’t mind if believing in Jesus helps Gentiles. But it is not for US.

How would you feel if someone took your scriptures and deliberately misused them? And then, to rub salt into the wound, beat you over the head with your OWN scriptures, claiming you are “blind” for not seeing the distortions as ‘truth’?

I understand why Christianity is so desperate to a) convert Jews and b) convince themselves that the Jewish Scriptures refer to their messiah…because Christianity stands or falls on JUDAISM. Without Judaism, Christianity has no reason to exist. And they know that.

Please note I am NOT trying to convince Catholics not to be Catholics. Gentiles can worship in any religion they want.

ALL I am trying to say is IT IS NOT FOR JEWS. Normally I would not even say this, but because you are trying to proselytize me, I will show WHY I do not believe.

I am not trying to "proselytize’ you whatsoever, I don’t want you to change your beliefs, only God can do that.
Without Judiasm, you wouldn’t have foreseen the coming of the Messiah either.
I am insulted when you say christian scholars ‘distorted’ the translations. Is that what you were taught in Hebrew school?
And yes, we have had people who have taken the NT and changed Scripture, what’s your point?
When Jesus performed many miracles in front of many Jews, they still denied him (the ones that didn’t believe). They were afraid of this man who challenged the high priests and the pharisees. It was all totally political if you ask me.

 

[KJK80]

I am not trying to "proselytize’ you whatsoever,

How can you proselytize Catholicism from a Catholic web board?

 

[twopekinguys]

Please note I am NOT trying to convince Catholics not to be Catholics. Gentiles can worship in any religion they want.

ALL I am trying to say is IT IS NOT FOR JEWS. Normally I would not even say this, but because you are trying to proselytize me, I will show WHY I do not believe.

But isn’t that exactly what you’re trying to do?

If a Jew leaves Judaism for Christianity, why are you here trying to get them to go back to Judaism? Who is proselytizing whom?

If a Jew leaves Judaism, then the Torah wasn’t enough. It did not fulfill them spiritually. Which means they weren’t Jewish “spiritually”.

Just because you believe the Torah is the beginning, ending, and everything else in between doesn’t mean that all Jews feel the same way that you do.

You should be happy that they feel they are taking care of their souls, not trying to convert them back.

 

[Righteousone]

HashemEchad, when Moses opened the Red Sea and made his people cross it, that would of did it for me. Yet they failed to STILL NOT BELIEVE. If I saw someone do that right in front of me, boy, I would drop to my knees knowing God was there, yet you people wandered for forty years breaking the covenant and still worshipping false Gods. Go figure…

 

[HashemEchad]

I am not trying to "proselytize’ you whatsoever, I don’t want you to change your beliefs, only God can do that.
Without Judiasm, you wouldn’t have foreseen the coming of the Messiah either.
I am insulted when you say christian scholars ‘distorted’ the translations. Is that what you were taught in Hebrew school?
And yes, we have had people who have taken the NT and changed Scripture, what’s your point?
When Jesus performed many miracles in front of many Jews, they still denied him (the ones that didn’t believe). They were afraid of this man who challenged the high priests and the pharisees. It was all totally political if you ask me.

Guess what? In Hebrew school, Christianity is NEVER DISCUSSED. I know it must upset you, but apart from Christian efforts to convert us over the centuries, Christianity and its deity, Jesus, is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to Jews and Judaism, hence we do not discuss it because it is irrelevant to our lives. We discuss JUDAISM in our schools, not other religions.

How do I know Christian theologians distorted OUR Jewish scriptures to fit their messiah? Because I KNOW HEBREW. And I know what the original Hebrew SAYS. And it does not say what the Christians claim it does.

Isaiah 7:14, for example, says in the original Hebrew, that a YOUNG WOMAN (ha’almah) will bear a son. Christians like to use that verse to fit Jesus, but in their translation, they changed the word to be VIRGIN.

In Hebrew, there are TWO SEPARATE words for YOUNG WOMAN and VIRGIN and they do not mean the same thing.

The word for YOUNG WOMAN is “almah”. The word for VIRGIN is “betulah”.

But those chose to change it to VIRGIN so as to fit the virgin birth concept.

Believe whatever you want, but I’m just showing why JEWS do not believe in Christianity.

 

[HashemEchad]

But isn’t that exactly what you’re trying to do?

If a Jew leaves Judaism for Christianity, why are you here trying to get them to go back to Judaism? Who is proselytizing whom?

If a Jew leaves Judaism, then the Torah wasn’t enough. It did not fulfill them spiritually. Which means they weren’t Jewish “spiritually”.

Just because you believe the Torah is the beginning, ending, and everything else in between doesn’t mean that all Jews feel the same way that you do.

You should be happy that they feel they are taking care of their souls, not trying to convert them back.

A Jew could get baptismal water poured over his head fifty times, and he remains a Jew. I do not consider a Jew who goes shmad to another religion as truly belonging to that religion, he remains forever a Jew.

You say if a Jew leaves Judaism, its because Torah “was not enough”. The overwhelming majority of Jews who go shmad to Christianity never knew the Torah in the first place. The vast majority of Jews who convert out are incredibly ignorant of what Judaism truly teaches. I have met about 8 or 9 Jews in my life who went Catholic (and many more who went evangelical), and I really don’t recall even one that had been raised truly Torah observant. Most were raised as either agnostics, atheists or at best, reform Jews (comparable to Unitarianism in Christianity.)

But a GENTILE who is in a nonJewish religion, has every right to stay in it. I would never try to convert a Gentile away from their religion.

The way we see it, a Jew who converts to another religion faces an eternity separated from God unless he repents and returns to the Torah life. Every Jew is dutybound to bring Jews who wander away, back to the fold. Just as I’m sure Catholics feel the duty to bring fallen-away Catholics back to their church.

Right?

 

[twopekinguys]

Guess what? In Hebrew school, Christianity is NEVER DISCUSSED. I know it must upset you, but apart from Christian efforts to convert us over the centuries, Christianity and its deity, Jesus, is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to Jews and Judaism, hence we do not discuss it because it is irrelevant to our lives. We discuss JUDAISM in our schools, not other religions.

How do I know Christian theologians distorted OUR Jewish scriptures to fit their messiah? Because I KNOW HEBREW. And I know what the original Hebrew SAYS. And it does not say what the Christians claim it does.

Isaiah 7:14, for example, says in the original Hebrew, that a YOUNG WOMAN (ha’almah) will bear a son. Christians like to use that verse to fit Jesus, but in their translation, they changed the word to be VIRGIN.

In Hebrew, there are TWO SEPARATE words for YOUNG WOMAN and VIRGIN and they do not mean the same thing.

The word for YOUNG WOMAN is “almah”. The word for VIRGIN is “betulah”.

But those chose to change it to VIRGIN so as to fit the virgin birth concept.

Believe whatever you want, but I’m just showing why JEWS do not believe in Christianity.

So what you’re saying is, Christianity is based on a lie, so Chritianity is irrelevant. Which would bolster an earlier claim that you believe that Judaism is the only true religion, or better than any other religion.

By the way, you’ve ignored a couple of my comments. Specifically who is proseltyzing whom?

 

[HashemEchad]

So what you’re saying is, Christianity is based on a lie, so Chritianity is irrelevant. Which would bolster an earlier claim that you believe that Judaism is the only true religion, or better than any other religion.

By the way, you’ve ignored a couple of my comments. Specifically who is proseltyzing whom?

I PERSONALLY (and I am sure all Jews) believe that nonJewish religions are false FOR US. We really would not CARE if Christianity were true or not, because it does not AFFECT us.

The ONLY reason WHY we even get involved in disputes like these is because Christians often try to convert us. And in order to show WHY we will not be converted, we have to show you what we know about your religion. I’m sorry if it offends you, but attempts to convert Jews often will lead to that.

I never said Judaism is the only true religion. I said it is the only true religion FOR JEWS. Gentiles can believe whatever they want and it means nothing to us.

Anytime someone tells me triumphally that I “must” or “will” believe in Jesus because he “is” somehow “my” messiah, that is proselytization. And if that is going to be done, then I am going to explain why I could never accept such a belief system.

You know how you Catholics feel when fundamentalists like Jack Chick tell you YOUR religion is false, and that YOU must accept THEIR religious beliefs? Think back to how YOU feel when that happens TO YOU, and you will then see how offensive it is to JEWS when you tell US the same kinds of things.

If you don’t like it being done TO YOU by fundamentalists, then please do not do it TO US.

 

[LaMar]

So what you’re saying is, Christianity is based on a lie, so Chritianity is irrelevant. Which would bolster an earlier claim that you believe that Judaism is the only true religion, or better than any other religion.

By the way, you’ve ignored a couple of my comments. Specifically who is proseltyzing whom?

I don’t think Hashem is saying that at all. I don’t see him trying to proselytize anyone.

He’s just speaking for himself and people in his community who are happy. If you’re happy with something, why change it? I’m sure you’d get offended if I told you guys that you should all be converted to Mormonism. Same difference.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

This is getting rather ridiculous and petty. Jews and Christians are like brothers/sisters for we share the same Father and yet everyone is consumed with bickering. Not the best light to be portrayed in.

As far as the claim that the OT was manipulated to make Jesus look like the messiah…the “virgin” instance mentioned earlier might be valid, however there are so many more prophecies all over the old testament. Over a hundred in the least…so you are saying ALL of these are manipulated? I’ve taken courses looking at the original hebrew/greek/latin of the bible. Surprisingly the text is accurate over the many translations, etc.

Granted I have heard that most Jews look for a messiah that will come sword in hand, so to speak, and avenge them to their enemies. Jesus came preaching peace and this is not what the Jews of the time wanted. They wanted a fighter, however they did not realize that Jesus, in his death, defeated the greatest enemy of all…death in sin, and saved his “people” in the greatest way possible. So…if I am wrong in what I have heard, then I apologize.

 

[HashemEchad]

This is getting rather ridiculous and petty. Jews and Christians are like brothers/sisters for we share the same Father and yet everyone is consumed with bickering. Not the best light to be portrayed in.

As far as the claim that the OT was manipulated to make Jesus look like the messiah…the “virgin” instance mentioned earlier might be valid, however there are so many more prophecies all over the old testament. Over a hundred in the least…so you are saying ALL of these are manipulated? I’ve taken courses looking at the original hebrew/greek/latin of the bible. Surprisingly the text is accurate over the many translations, etc.

Granted I have heard that most Jews look for a messiah that will come sword in hand, so to speak, and avenge them to their enemies. Jesus came preaching peace and this is not what the Jews of the time wanted. They wanted a fighter, however they did not realize that Jesus, in his death, defeated the greatest enemy of all…death in sin, and saved his “people” in the greatest way possible. So…if I am wrong in what I have heard, then I apologize.

There are MANY more quotes that were distorted by early Christian translators, Is. 7:14 is not the only one. I only mentioned one to give an example.

The Jewish Mashiach (Messiah) will not be violent; he will be peaceful. But he will also be a human being, not a deity, and he will be born normally (not “of a virgin”).

I think a big part of the problem is that Christians INTERPRET the entire concept of “messiah” differently from the Jewish understanding.

You see, to us, “messiah” simply means “anointed one”. That’s it. It doesn’t mean a god, or anything like that.

King David and King Solomon were also called “messiah” because they were ANOINTED as kings.

It does not mean the same to us as it evidently means to Christians.

 

[twopekinguys]

I PERSONALLY (and I am sure all Jews) believe that nonJewish religions are false FOR US. We really would not CARE if Christianity were true or not, because it does not AFFECT us.

The ONLY reason WHY we even get involved in disputes like these is because Christians often try to convert us. And in order to show WHY we will not be converted, we have to show you what we know about your religion. I’m sorry if it offends you, but attempts to convert Jews often will lead to that.

I never said Judaism is the only true religion. I said it is the only true religion FOR JEWS. Gentiles can believe whatever they want and it means nothing to us.

Anytime someone tells me triumphally that I “must” or “will” believe in Jesus because he “is” somehow “my” messiah, that is proselytization. And if that is going to be done, then I am going to explain why I could never accept such a belief system.

You know how you Catholics feel when fundamentalists like Jack Chick tell you YOUR religion is false, and that YOU must accept THEIR religious beliefs? Think back to how YOU feel when that happens TO YOU, and you will then see how offensive it is to JEWS when you tell US the same kinds of things.

If you don’t like it being done TO YOU by fundamentalists, then please do not do it TO US.

First, I think someone is getting a little cranky.

What your are failing to address, and what has been asked of you several times with no response is, If a Jewish person converts to Christianity, then they weren’t a Spiritual Jew. Isn’t coming in here trying to get those people back to the Torah exactly what you are telling us not to do?

I personally have never seen anyone dragged to the Baptismal font. They are making the choice for themselves.

Many people convert from other religions because of simple conversations with another person. They find what they feel God is wanting for them.

If a person wants to leave Judaism, let them. Trying to push them to, or pull them back to Judaism isn’t going to help anyone.

Your motives are becoming more and more clear. You are here to try and get Catholics who were formerly Jewish to return to the Torah. While you’re at it, you’re telling us to not to talk faith with, baptize, confirm, or welcome into the Catholic church anyone who is Jewish.

Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. If someone wants to come to the Church, they are welcome.

Please note, I was able to type this post without using CAPS to emphasize my attitude, or tone.

 

[Righteousone]

Guess what? In Hebrew school, Christianity is NEVER DISCUSSED. I know it must upset you, but apart from Christian efforts to convert us over the centuries, Christianity and its deity, Jesus, is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to Jews and Judaism, hence we do not discuss it because it is irrelevant to our lives. We discuss JUDAISM in our schools, not other religions.

How do I know Christian theologians distorted OUR Jewish scriptures to fit their messiah? Because I KNOW HEBREW. And I know what the original Hebrew SAYS. And it does not say what the Christians claim it does.

Isaiah 7:14, for example, says in the original Hebrew, that a YOUNG WOMAN (ha’almah) will bear a son. Christians like to use that verse to fit Jesus, but in their translation, they changed the word to be VIRGIN.

In Hebrew, there are TWO SEPARATE words for YOUNG WOMAN and VIRGIN and they do not mean the same thing.

The word for YOUNG WOMAN is “almah”. The word for VIRGIN is “betulah”.

But those chose to change it to VIRGIN so as to fit the virgin birth concept.

Believe whatever you want, but I’m just showing why JEWS do not believe in Christianity.

Have you heard of Edith Stein? She was a brilliant doctor, she studied Catholicism and became angry at her parents for not disclosing the life of Christ. She therefore became a Catholic nun, took the name of. Benedicta, then died at Auschwitz. She was an amazing person.
Ms. Stein apparently saw and read something that changed her life forever.
As far as not being told about the NT in Hebrew school, causes me great concern. After all the OT tells of the NTand vice versa. How can you really know or compare books if you don’t have an open mind about them?
As far as people trying to convert Jews, a lot of Evangelicals are doing this out there. Catholics don’t roam the streets trying to convert.
And because you know Hebrew, doesn’t mean your words are not interpreted differently either. .