Perhaps my time here is over

[CapaxDei]

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

You mean those “impressionable” Jews who might actually begin to understand why Israel was set apart in the first place?

 

[LaMar]

First, HashemEchad writes…

Some mentally unbalanced people will sometimes use religion in ways that are mentally unhealthy. This applies in all religions, unfortunately.

Back in the 1970s, I met a girl (10 years older than me, I was a teen then) who had converted to Catholicism, along with her younger sister. They had lost their parents in a car accident when they were young, and they blamed “the Jewish God” for taking their parents, so they converted to Catholicism (sort of a childish “let’s use the Christian god to spite the Jewish God” kind of thing.)

The younger sister seemed especially mentally unbalanced, and often made anti-semitic comments about Jews (they lived in an area of Brooklyn that was heavily Chasidic).

I don’t know what eventually happened to the younger sister, but I became friends with the older one, and she eventually left Catholicism and when she passed away (2002) from an asthmatic attack, she had only recently returned to Judaism (Orthodox variety). In fact a Satmar Chasidic Jew (who ran a health food store she and I often shopped in) paid for her burial and funeral, since she was very poor.

I often felt sorry for both of them, to have lost their parents so young, and to be shuttled from aunt to uncle constantly. But Thank God the older one, my friend, returned to her faith before she died.

Then, Righteousone responds…

So what you are trying to say is people who become Catholics are mentally unstable?? Are 1.5 Billion Catholics mentally ill???

Lest anyone not know what a strawman is, there you have it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

**Straw man
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This article is about the logical fallacy. For other uses, see Straw man (disambiguation).

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw man argument” is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent’s actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent’s position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent’s actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it[3]. Such a target is, naturally, immobile and does not fight back, and is not as realistic to test skill against compared to a live and armed opponent. It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy, scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Setup
* 2 Example
* 3 See also
* 4 References
* 5 External links

[edit] Setup

A straw man argument can be set up in several ways, including:

1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent’s actual position has been refuted.[1]
2. Quoting an opponent’s words out of context – i.e., choosing quotations that are not representative of the opponent’s actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).[2]
3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender and then refuting that person’s arguments, thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.[1]
4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, such that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5. Oversimplifying an opponent’s argument, then attacking the simplified version.

However, carefully presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent’s argument is not always itself a fallacy. It can restrict the scope of the opponent’s argument or be a legitimate step of a proof by exhaustion.

[edit] Example

* Hypothetical Marijuana debate.

Person A: We should liberalize the laws on marijuana.
Person B: No. Any society with unrestricted access to drugs loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.

The proposal was to relax laws on marijuana. Person B has exaggerated this to a position harder to defend: “unrestricted access to drugs”.[1]**

 

[Righteousone]

Oh please…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That’s the thing. I have yet to see her imply it’s “OK” or “not OK”. She simply witholds judgment (unless she’s criticizing those she feels should follow her own limited interpretation of Judaism). She considers it none of her business. That doesn’t mean she approves or disapproves.

She said, “I’ve never heard of a satanism that doesn’t believe in harming people, but if as you say, there is one, I’d see no problem with Gentiles being involved as long as they harmed no one.”

NO PROBLEM usually means OK in my book. You’ve convoluted and whitewashed what she said so much with your apologies I had to go back near the beginning to quote it.

I don’t buy what you say and can’t take anyone seriously who says a peaceful form of satanism is ok for Gentiles.

That’s how it stands with me.

 

[Catholic_Mike]

Well, I believe Judaism and Christianity to be both true. Both come from the One true God.

Is Jesus God?

If he is, then modern Judaism (which is what I was talking about) is untrue. If he isn’t, then Christianity is untrue.

 

[LaMar]

She said, “I’ve never heard of a satanism that doesn’t believe in harming people, but if as you say, there is one, I’d see no problem with Gentiles being involved as long as they harmed no one.”

NO PROBLEM usually means OK in my book. You’ve convoluted and whitewashed what she said so much with your apologies I had to go back near the beginning to quote it.

I don’t buy what you say and can’t take anyone seriously who says a peaceful form of satanism is ok for Gentiles.

That’s how it stands with me.

She’s judging people on deeds, rather than labels. “Satanism” is a loaded term and I doubt there’s a coherent definition that can be drawn except for a pejorative term to describe someone who is “different from us”. Many Mormons (particularly in the generations just ahead of me) believe Roman Catholics are Satanists, and the Pope is the Anti-Christ. Does this carry any weight? Does it hurt your feelings?

Roman Catholic presidential candidate John Kerry and Fundamentalist Christian George W Bush both belonged to a group called “skull & bones”, which seems to be some silly Satanic frat house at Yale university, where rich kids put on magic shows, sell their souls with pacts of blood, lie down in coffins and spill all their sexual fantasies, play drinking games and other such adolescent nonsense. Do you care about this? I don’t. Just another man-made spookshow which is no more or less ridiculous than the metaphysical rites in Christianity or Mormonism.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

She’s judging people on deeds, rather than labels. “Satanism” is a loaded term and I doubt there’s a coherent definition that can be drawn except for a pejorative term to describe someone who is “different from us”.

It’s glorification of the Evil Inclination in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, opposed to God’s Good Inclination. There’s nothing loaded about it, that’s what Satan is. As if I should need to explain.

Many Mormons (particularly in the generations just ahead of me) believe Roman Catholics are Satanists, and the Pope is the Anti-Christ. Does this carry any weight? Does it hurt your feelings?

No I’m not Catholic.

Roman Catholic presidential candidate John Kerry and Fundamentalist Christian George W Bush both belonged to a group called “skull & bones”, which seems to be some silly Satanic frat house at Yale university, where rich kids put on magic shows, sell their souls with pacts of blood, lie down in coffins and spill all their sexual fantasies, play drinking games and other such adolescent nonsense. Do you care about this? I don’t. Just another man-made spookshow which is no more or less ridiculous than the metaphysical rites in Christianity or Mormonism.

They are tied to Masons who work to rebuild the Kingdom of Solomon, no Jesus desired, so I have a problem with them. But since you are LDS then I understand why you might think they are fine too.

Fact is I’m not seriously caring about your overall religious opinions too much since I don’t consider LDS an Abrahamic religion anyway, so we can save time by letting it remain at that.

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad, according to you did I post anything that sounded to you like “our way is the only way, and everyone had better believe it too” ? Which post(s)? I am willing to examine it and acknowledge it if I ever did, even though in my conscience I don’t think I ever wrote something in such spirit…

I’m sorry if you took anything I said as being about you personally, as far as I can see, nothing you have said coulod be regarded as offensive.

I had in mind a few of the others on the forum, actually. I just feel very saddened that there is still the “Deus vult” mentality with some Catholics. In fairness, those attitudes probably rest more with convert Catholics (converts to a religion are always 'the worst ones", and that goes for ALL religions, I have met converts to Judaism who made me sick like that too!)

It just concerns me when members of any religion (Christianity, Islam, mostly) hold the view that their way is SO right, that they insist others WIL also believe in it. I know from history what some religions are capable of when they take that view to its logical conclusion.

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad;3501585:

How would you feel if someone took your scriptures and deliberately misused them? And then, to rub salt into the wound, beat you over the head with your OWN scriptures, claiming you are “blind” for not seeing the distortions as ‘truth’?

sounds like Islam

It was also Catholicism and (sometimes Lutheranism), for a time, too.

 

[HashemEchad]

I am very glad she’s still here, and I hope she stays as long as she finds this forum amusing or useful.

I agree with HashemEchad on almost nothing. I’m sure if she had a chance, she’d attempt to proselytize my kids, and my wife, and possibly me too.

She holds views that I find not only regressive but also inconsistent. She has described liberal Jews as “stupid” and conversos as flawed, despite the fact that she talks about her mother and husband converting to Judaism. She talks about a birthright religion, which I find ridiculous (if we were to take that idea to its logical conclusion, we might as well all go back to worshiping the sun, or join cave bear cults, or whatever else prehistoric people did).

All that aside, I’ve found her amiable, reasonable and her arguments are well thought out, which is all any of us can ask in our intellectual opponents.

Most of my personal friends are people who challenge me to explain myself when I disagree with them, and most of them are good humored enough to tolerate personal differences in the pursuit of mutual affection. With that in mind, I’d always consider HashemEchad someone who is misguided, but she’s also someone I’d love to go to Starbucks and argue with.

I need to correct some things you said, that misrepresented my view.

Judaism does not believe in trying to convert nonJews to Judaism, so you and your family would be “safe”. In fact, when a nonJew approaches a traditional Jewish rabbi for conversion, he is required by Jewish Law to turn them away 3 times, to test their sincerity. We want to be sure someone is very sincere, because traditional Judaism is not an easy religion to follow.

I never said CONVERSOS are “flawed”. “Converso” was a term used for Spanish Jews who were FORCED to become Catholics during the Spanish Inquisition, but who remained Jews in secret (they converted only to save their lives, iow.) They were also known as “Marranos” (a derogatory term used by the Spanish), or more properly called “anusim” (Hebrew for “those who were forced to convert”.)

My mother descends from conversos on one side of her family (I did not find this out until the 1980s when I became interested in genealogy), so that gave me incentive to learn their history more fully.

 

[HashemEchad]

So what you are trying to say is people who become Catholics are mentally unstable?? Are 1.5 Billion Catholics mentally ill???

I think you really need to go back to school and brush up on reading comprehension. Honestly.

I gave ONE EXAMPLE of someone I knew, and said in my post that this problem has happened IN ALL RELIGIONS.

I never said ALL converts to Catholicism are like that, I just gave ONE EXAMPLE.

Sheesh!

 

[HashemEchad]

She said, “I’ve never heard of a satanism that doesn’t believe in harming people, but if as you say, there is one, I’d see no problem with Gentiles being involved as long as they harmed no one.”

NO PROBLEM usually means OK in my book. You’ve convoluted and whitewashed what she said so much with your apologies I had to go back near the beginning to quote it.

I don’t buy what you say and can’t take anyone seriously who says a peaceful form of satanism is ok for Gentiles.

That’s how it stands with me.

To begin with, its not that I think its GOOD for someone to be involved in satanism, I am actually INDIFFERENT to it.

One reason why i really would have no opinion on it is because in traditional Judaism, we do not believe in a “Lucifer” in the way Christians do.

The classic Jewish view of the satan can be found in the Book of Job. In Christianity, Lucifer seems to have power almost equal to that of God, and Christianity often portrays Lucifer as fighting with God, and everyone has to be on one side or the other. The prayer to St Michael, said after Low Mass, is another example of this “good vs evil” battle that is so prevalent in Christian theology.

But in Judaism, satan is a created being that God USES for HIS purposes. The satan has NO power apart from WHAT GOD GIVES TO HIM. In Job, satan asks God PERMISSION to test Job, he doesn’t just go and do it.

So to US, the idea of worshipping a created being that God uses as HIS instrument, is rather silly, but there is no rule in Judaism against someone being silly.

Furthermore, in traditional Judaism, we believe that evil did not come into the world at the moment Adam sinned, we just believe evil became LARGER IN QUANTITY when he sinned (“Derech Hashem”, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato, a/k/a The Ramchal).

We believe a tiny bit of evil had to exist even before the Fall, otherwise, how could Adam and Eve CHOOSE to do good or evil? If NO evil existed before the Fall, Adam would then have had no choice BUT to be good, yet he disobeyed God. And we believe man was created with free will to choose right or wrong.

 

[Righteousone]

Some mentally unbalanced people will sometimes use religion in ways that are mentally unhealthy. This applies in all religions, unfortunately.

Back in the 1970s, I met a girl (10 years older than me, I was a teen then) who had converted to Catholicism, along with her younger sister. They had lost their parents in a car accident when they were young, and they blamed “the Jewish God” for taking their parents, so they converted to Catholicism (sort of a childish “let’s use the Christian god to spite the Jewish God” kind of thing.)

The younger sister seemed especially mentally unbalanced, and often made anti-semitic comments about Jews (they lived in an area of Brooklyn that was heavily Chasidic).

I don’t know what eventually happened to the younger sister, but I became friends with the older one, and she eventually left Catholicism and when she passed away (2002) from an asthmatic attack, she had only recently returned to Judaism (Orthodox variety). In fact a Satmar Chasidic Jew (who ran a health food store she and I often shopped in) paid for her burial and funeral, since she was very poor.

I often felt sorry for both of them, to have lost their parents so young, and to be shuttled from aunt to uncle constantly. But Thank God the older one, my friend, returned to her faith before she died.

It says right here how two sisters converted to Catholicism, one was MENTALLY UNBALANCED, and you say SOME mentally unbalanced people…some means MORE than one.
Not a great example…

 

[Lapell]

Is Jesus God?

If he is, then modern Judaism (which is what I was talking about) is untrue. If he isn’t, then Christianity is untrue.

I don’t think Judaism is about Jesus being God or not, but about following the ways of the Lord God. It had to be true before Jesus came, hadn’t it, since He had to justify His claims through the authority of the Holy Scriptures at a time when there was no New Testament and no Gospels.

 

[Lapell]

In my view, Judaism still is faithful to what was known of God to Israelites before Jesus’ time. After Jesus came, some teachings may have been modified so as to absolutely discourage any Jew to become a disciple of that Yeshua of Nazareth, but the rest is still true!

 

[Lapell]

It says right here how two sisters converted to Catholicism, one was MENTALLY UNBALANCED, and you say SOME mentally unbalanced people…some means MORE than one.
Not a great example…

It also means that to her not every Catholic is mentally ill, far from it. Moreover, she mentioned that they originally were not Catholics. Some people do convert to another religion or denomination for wrong reasons!

 

[Lapell]

To begin with, its not that I think its GOOD for someone to be involved in satanism, I am actually INDIFFERENT to it.

One reason why i really would have no opinion on it is because in traditional Judaism, we do not believe in a “Lucifer” in the way Christians do.

The classic Jewish view of the satan can be found in the Book of Job. In Christianity, Lucifer seems to have power almost equal to that of God, and Christianity often portrays Lucifer as fighting with God, and everyone has to be on one side or the other. The prayer to St Michael, said after Low Mass, is another example of this “good vs evil” battle that is so prevalent in Christian theology.

But in Judaism, satan is a created being that God USES for HIS purposes. The satan has NO power apart from WHAT GOD GIVES TO HIM. In Job, satan asks God PERMISSION to test Job, he doesn’t just go and do it.

So to US, the idea of worshipping a created being that God uses as HIS instrument, is rather silly, but there is no rule in Judaism against someone being silly.

Furthermore, in traditional Judaism, we believe that evil did not come into the world at the moment Adam sinned, we just believe evil became LARGER IN QUANTITY when he sinned (“Derech Hashem”, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato, a/k/a The Ramchal).

We believe a tiny bit of evil had to exist even before the Fall, otherwise, how could Adam and Eve CHOOSE to do good or evil? If NO evil existed before the Fall, Adam would then have had no choice BUT to be good, yet he disobeyed God. And we believe man was created with free will to choose right or wrong.

And what would have been the first evil according to traditional Judaism?

 

[Valke2]

It says right here how two sisters converted to Catholicism, one was MENTALLY UNBALANCED, and you say SOME mentally unbalanced people…some means MORE than one.
Not a great example…

Would you rather she said 1/2 the people who convert …?

 

[Lapell]

We call Adam-and-Eve’s fall the “original sin” but I think it means sin done by a human being. Because before that, there was the fall of some angels, among them Satan (the adversary), according to Catholic theology. And no, he is not as powerful as God. But he is stronger than humans, though. Don’t confuse Catholicism with manicheism!

 

[HashemEchad]

It also means that to her not every Catholic is mentally ill, far from it. Moreover, she mentioned that they originally were not Catholics. Some people do convert to another religion or denomination for wrong reasons!

I also know of a real oddball who converted to Orthodox Judaism (from a fundamentalist Protestant group in KY) who really gives Orthodox Jews a bad name.

Unfortunately, all religions fall victim to this kind of problem.