Permitting evil

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The problem of evil is a very old and well known objection to Christianity. It is often said that God just allows evil, because he tolerates our freedom. That sounded always pretty convincing to me until it came to my mind if permitting evil isn’t immoral too.
If I knew that someone is going to commit murder, I should probably stop him rather than tolerate his decision to do evil.
 
Yes, the Master’s gone away, so to speak, which allows for any and everything imaginable to take place here on this earth. And the reason He’s gone, according to our faith, is because Adam preferred things that way, and we’re here to decide whether Adam’s choice was a wise one or not, whether we want to carry on the family tradition or not after tasting of a world where God’s will doesn’t necessarily hold sway at all, and man’s will does with often disastrous results in both our personal and social lives. Man either has the freedom to act as he wants-or he has no true freedom at all.

Anyway, the suffering in this world is very real, and yet temporary. And even in this messed up world we all, generally speaking, cherish our existence over the alternative, when push comes to shove. At the end of the day we believe God will bring an even greater good out of the evil that was allowed to prevail here for a time, knowing the beginning from the end and deeming creation to be worthwhile in spite of the evil. And we know, because of the Incarnation and all that it implies and reveals to us, that goodness and justice and order and love nonetheless lie at the foundations of this universe-and will reign supreme in the end. We’re asked, we’re invited, to join along-rather than be forced into alignment with God’s will. Here we experience-we know-both good and evil, and are asked to choose between the two.
 
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Thank for the answe, but I don’t understand why God tolerates this evil. Why doesn’t he take away our freedom? He could stop all evil, but he doesn’t beacause our free will is more important? Like I said, isn’t it immoral to tolerate someone’s freedom to the point of murder or genocide? Why isn’t God morally obligated to stop all evil that he can stop like we are, or aren’t we?
 
Kullervo said:
It is often said that God just allows evil, because he tolerates our freedom.
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Whoa! “Tolerates our freedom”? AYKM? Who gave us that freedom in the first place? Evil is entirely separate from freedom and is possible only by abusing freedom.

Freedom allows love. That is why it is God-given. We cannot know God, love God and serve God without freedom! Do not blame God for evil - that is on us. He alone brings good from evil - that is His nature and is to His credit.

Best to stop over-thinking, if that is what you are doing.
 
One important thing to remember is that all-there-is-to-life doesn’t merely exist in this existence on earth, and once our existence on this earth is over, our existence is kaput.

Instead, this existence here allows us to lay the framework for our future existence, for the good and for the bad.

So, in your scenario, there would be more of a moral obligation to prevent a genocidal maniac from committing genocide, not because of love for his victims, but for love of the genocidal maniac’s soul.

And then you get back into the whole allowing-us-free-will argument, because once you use your divine superpowers to make a genocidal maniac turn into a Care Bear, then we lose the opportunity to freely choose to do good and avoid evil ourselves. And we lose the opportunity for the graces that come along with courageously standing up to evil genocide and calling it out, or trying to counsel a genocidal maniac to take a more moral path, or actively working to subvert his evil and thereby earning merit.
 
Kullervo said:
The problem of evil is a very old and well known objection to Christianity. It is often said that God just allows evil, because he tolerates our freedom. That sounded always pretty convincing to me until it came to my mind if permitting evil isn’t immoral too.
If I knew that someone is going to commit murder, I should probably stop him rather than tolerate his decision to do evil.
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There is no solution for the problem of evil when God is good since the source of everything return to God. For example, they say that Satan fell because of pride. Who gave Satan specific nature that Satan could feel pride?
 
Kullervo said:
Thank for the answe, but I don’t understand why God tolerates this evil. Why doesn’t he take away our freedom? He could stop all evil, but he doesn’t beacause our free will is more important? Like I said, isn’t it immoral to tolerate someone’s freedom to the point of murder or genocide? Why isn’t God morally obligated to stop all evil that he can stop like we are, or aren’t we?
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There’s not an easy answer. But in His wisdom God deemed it good and appropriate to create rational beings and grant them free will, having an ultimate purpose, of creating something better, that He knows much better than ourselves. And He was even willing to come down here and suffer in human flesh the same fate as ourselves, worse than most considering His passion. He says -and models- that it’s worth it.

And don’t we agree, even if only tacitly, that it’s worth it- demonstrated by the fact that we continue to desire and even cherish our existence in such a world as ours?
 
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You are thinking that pride itself is a specific creation of God.
But it isn’t.
Pride is spoiled love (Love IS a creation).
Or if you will, pride is spoiled humility (another gift).

A humble person thinks of and loves God and other people before he thinks of himself (note that he does think of himself, he’s not a doormat.)

A person who is prideful takes that view of humility and says, "Uh-uh, no way. I’m taking care of #1 first’.
There is always the fact that humans exist together. It is either me individual before others, or others before me. . .(or ‘all of us together’ except that if you’re coming to a doorway you can’t all try to go in together unless the doorway is incredibly broad, SOMEBODY has to go in first, then somebody else, etc. etc.)

God created nothing but good. Human beings either freely accepted the good, ignored it and just didn’t do it, while not actively doing the opposite, or evil, or took the good and turned it around into evil, in gradations (some things are more evil than others. It is worse to spoil humility with pride, which is its opposite, than it is to spoil humility with vanity. As Mary Bennett noted, Pride is related to what we think of ourselves, vanity to what we want others to think of us.
 
Read the Book of Job.

Or if reading aint your thing, the Bible project answers “the problem of evil” pretty well.


 
I think there are situations where we can or must tolerate evil, but it is perhaps less convincing to non-believers to suggest that God is justified in tolerating evil in these cases.

But as far as permitting evil being evil in itself, I think if this were the case then a moral system compatible with Christianity (or really any moral system familiar to us) would be impossible.
 
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Kullervo said:
It is often said that God just allows evil, because he tolerates our freedom.
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However, this is not Christian teaching.

God gave us the gift of free will. We are free to choose Him or reject Him, He honors our choices.
 
TheLittleLady said:
God gave us the gift of free will. We are free to choose Him or reject Him, He honors our choices.
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As long as we live in this side of eternity, our intellect/ mind is a CORRUPTED agent and without God’s aids our mind is useful only for lying and to commit acts of sins.
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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.

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The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. Page 84.
St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.”

St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II 4, 4 ad 3:

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As we see above, there are two agents God and still our corrupted intellect/ mind.

But only One Agent runs the show, God Almighty the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

His wisdom He so decreed/ orders from all eternity EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God bless
 
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Still, we were given free will. God does not interfere with our free will.

Free will does not deny God’s grace.
 
thegr8andpowerfulOz said:
In other words we don’t really have free will, and so blaming the evil in the world on our free will is complete bunk.
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THE TRUTH AND THE CORE OF THE MATTER OF THE ABOVE SUBJECT

Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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For the benefit of the human race. At the point, God made the above decision: He had no other choice, He must create in this world the dramas of evil and sin and this is what He created at His CAUSE of the event of the “fall.”

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza explains;
Page 113: “God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.” – God designed, decreed, predestined and ordered the events of the “fall.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. 177
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301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.

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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good . . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.
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God bless
 
TheLittleLady said:
Still, we were given free will. God does not interfere with our free will.
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God has an ABSOLUTE free will and we have an AIDED free will, without God and His AIDES we can do NOTHING.

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GOD DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH OUR FREE WILL GOD AIDES OUR FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT FORCING IT.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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THE SAME WAY AS ABOVE THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence also explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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“For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause.” (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless
 
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Correct but in man’s effort to stop evil and promote good, the will of the soul remains.

For God to prevent evil from ever taking root in the heart would mean the creature is no longer a person.
 
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