Perpetual Adoration, shorts, miniskirts, flipflops

[Mrs_Sally]

I was flipping through mags like Us and People the other day while waiting to get my car’s oil changed. Have any of you seen them recently? There were tons of photos of movie stars, musicians, etc wearing things like shorts with high heels and sparkly tops, or on the men “dress” pants down around their butts with their shirt tails out. These were shown as examples of them dressed up. The magazine editors then helpfully explained how the rest of us could get the same “look” for less.

There are tons of people in the states (and elsewhere) who emulate these examples. So the folks in flip flops and shorts may indeed think they are dressed up - the flips have beads! the shorts are pleated! As I said earlier, I recently saw a women (with her husband and kids) out at a restaurant wearing a dress that was essentially a jumper but without a shirt, so quite a bit of her bra was showing. She had to know and they all obviously thought that what she had on was a perfectly fine thing for a grown woman to go out in public in.

Yes, many people in adoration may be there because they are going through a hard time. But I think that unfortunately, many are perfectly comfortable with what they are wearing. Having a stranger say something to them isn’t going to convict them - it will just annoy them.

Cat is right, the only way to solve the problem is to befriend the people and teach them by example. As another poster stated, people who know you and trust you will ask and will accept advice.

 

[Vico]

Mrs Sally, Here are some interesting comments from WYD 2003, what do you think?

Fr. Tony Anatrella, Psychoanalyst, specialist in Social Psychiatry:Young people today are just like those of previous generations: they are capable of generosity, solidarity and loyalty when faced with causes that motivate them. However, they have fewer social references and a weaker sense of belonging than their elders had. They are individualistic and they want to make their own choices without holding to any system of values, ideas or common laws. They want to borrow references from all over the place and to experiment with them in their way of life. They easily adapt to egalitarianism and tolerance, and are steeped in discourses and fashions from the media which actually serve as norms on which they build their characters. They can easily conform to fashion like sponges that soak it all up, rather than build their freedom upon reasons for living and loving. This explains the emotional fragility and the self-doubt with which they struggle.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/Colonia2005/rc_pc_laity_doc_20030805_p-anatrella-gmg_en.html

And Fr. Giorgio Pontiggia, Rector of Istituto Sacro Cuore in Milan:I have never found a more succinct and imaginative description of the situation of young people today than that which arose during a discussion between Don Giussani and a group of university students: “It is as if the youth of today were victims of a kind of Chernobyl nuclear explosion: their organism remains structurally the same but dynamically different. There has been a sort of physiological subjugation operated by a dominant mentality. It is as if the only facts in evidence are those in fashion, and fashion is a concept and an instrument of power. Never before has the environment - understood as mental climate and way of life - had at its disposal instruments of such invasive and despotic power over our consciences. Never before has the educator - or the sovereign “diseducator” - been the environment with all its forms of expression. That is why it is even more difficult for the Christian message to be accepted as a convincing way of life, and to become life and conviction. What is heard and seen is not really assimilated: our surroundings, the dominant mentality, the all-invasive culture, power. These cause us to feel estranged from ourselves, and we remain, on the one hand, abstracted in relation to ourselves and emotionally discharged (like batteries that last for minutes instead of hours); and on the other hand, by contrast, we escape into a community for protection”. These cause us to feel estranged from ourselves, and we remain, on the one hand, abstracted in relation to ourselves…
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/Colonia2005/rc_pc_laity_doc_20030805_p-pontiggia-gmg_en.html

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yes those quotes are excellent. The culture is very different even from when I was a teen (not really 100 years ago.) I distinctly remember magazine articles about how to clean your face to keep zits away or to be sure to sew buttons on correctly! Oh MY that does sound like 100 years ago.

Now teen-focused (12-16 yos) magazines talk about how to make-up your eyes like Katy Perry or what to wear the next day when you spend the night unexpectedly at your boyfriends! I am NOT kidding. Older girls are reading Cosmo with all it’s sex-instruction stories.

The culture is truly toxic and it is everywhere. Someone wearing gym shorts and flip-flops to adoration is really the least of our worries.

WYD2011 was a wonderful heartening experience, and even there we saw girls in short-shorts and with their shirts tucked up. (In their defense it was 40C, but somehow the religious managed to walk around in their habits. )

 

[L_piperatus]

If it’s such a huge deal, they should be instructing converts on it. Seriously. No one ever told me. A lot of the protestant churches I attended, even the pastor wears jeans to church. So I figured it was okay since no one said otherwise, and most people in our parish don’t dress up. (Could you maybe pm me some of those links so I could read them?) I don’t want to be disrespectful, I am honestly ignorant on this topic.

Daizies, your post inspired me to start a “resource thread”, for the teachings and specific instructions from our clergy, regarding how to dress when visiting a Catholic church. Please see here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9485737#post9485737

Jeans, and pants for women, are not a problem as long as they are not immodest (pants that are too tight or low-riding and expose the midriff or belly area, would be immodest).

 

[Phemie]

Muumuu History: When Victorian missionaries arrived in Hawaii in the 1800s, they demanded that the loincloth-wearing local Polynesians cover themselves up like good Christians. The compromise was the muumuu, made from endless, shapeless yards of vibrant floral fabric.

The one my in-laws brought back for me was sleeveless so totally inappropirate for Church per CAF rules.

 

[Rejoice_Always]

is it half-CAF or de-CAF?

 

[DebChris]

What is considered acceptable modest wear depends on culture. It is not always possible for young women to find dresses that fall below the knees, nor do I think that the Church expects anybody to buy a completely different wardrobe than might be worn in daily life. One criteria used on other threads for appropriate dress was business casual. School children might wear shorts, as might vacationers. Of course there is a difference between Bermuda length shorts and those worn for jogging.
It is reasonable to expect churchgoers to adhere to the same standard that students who follow a Standard Mode of Dress are asked to follow. Although my grandson’s middle school did not have a uniform requirement, they did set forth the following criteria for graduation. Girl’s dresses were to be fingertip length or longer with straps a minimum of 3 inches wide. They asked them not to wear fishnet or torn stockings. Fingertip length is a standard length given for schools that require a SMOD for both skirts and shorts. Jewelry should appropriate, not flashy.
The main reason for going to Church, whether Adoration, Mass, or simply prayer is to spend time with our Lord. Clothing should not distract from this purpose. A skirt that is floor length could still have a thigh high split. This is the only type of garment I have expressly heard a priest, in any parish to which I have belonged, describe as inappropriate. Otherwise guidelines given have been very general. I do understand that some parishes are more conservative than others. There are parishes in which every man and boy wears a shirt and tie.
I intentionally did not address footwear. I personally wear sandals most of the time. They are easy to remove. As mentioned earlier, removing shoes for Adoration is the only posted sign in my overseas parish. My overseas parish does publish a dress code for weddings and for lectors. EMCHs and cantors wear special albs.

 

[triumphguy]

A Redemptorist priest used this story in a parish mission:

Two priests were hiking in the countryside and they came to a swift flowing river.
A beautiful woman was standing by the river obviously trying to get up the courage to wade across.
The first priest offered to carry her across and she agreed.
They all crossed the river successfully and carried on hiking going their separate directions.
After a while the second priest said, “Father, how could you touch a beautiful woman and not find yourself in the occasion of sin.” The first priest said, “Father, I put her down long ago, and you are still carrying her.”

 

[garn9173]

If it’s such a huge deal, they should be instructing converts on it. Seriously. No one ever told me. A lot of the protestant churches I attended, even the pastor wears jeans to church. So I figured it was okay since no one said otherwise, and most people in our parish don’t dress up. (Could you maybe pm me some of those links so I could read them?) I don’t want to be disrespectful, I am honestly ignorant on this topic.

Daizies, I wouldn’t worry about of course then again, i’m one of those evil kahki shorts wearer to Mass every week

Summer is short enough as it is that adults shouldn’t get all worked up over what other adults wear to Mass. I’m 38 and casual dress has been the norm most of my life. I can remember as a child jeans and shorts being worn.

 

[johnnyjones]

Maybe all those parents were wrong for years telling kids to put on their Sunday best with some of the logic here.

An emergency is a different story but miniskirts are designed to be attention grabers and flip flops are sloppy.

Then again, you could toss all attention to dress out the window when going to mass and the whole congregation could have the fancy beach bum look. It would show we really care

 

[DarkLight]

I wonder about the choice between “miniskirts and tank tops” and “having everything from the shoulders to the knees covered.” I bought a black dress for work recently. It’s sleeveless and hits about an inch above my knees. This is considered an appropriate and quite tasteful outfit for a young professional woman to wear. Outside of conservative christian culture I have never heard the suggestion that it might be immodest.

Do I believe there is such a thing as modesty? Yes. Do I believe that it is important? Yes. But I came to the catholic church because I was looking for something that could escape the sort of petty in-fighting and holier-than-thou attitudes that I found in many other churches. So we could focus on real issues, not on increasingly strict standards of “proper behavior” and judging others.

 

[johnnyjones]

I wonder about the choice between “miniskirts and tank tops” and “having everything from the shoulders to the knees covered.” I bought a black dress for work recently. It’s sleeveless and hits about an inch above my knees. This is considered an appropriate and quite tasteful outfit for a young professional woman to wear. Outside of conservative christian culture I have never heard the suggestion that it might be immodest.

Do I believe there is such a thing as modesty? Yes. Do I believe that it is important? Yes. But I came to the catholic church because I was looking for something that could escape the sort of petty in-fighting and holier-than-thou attitudes that I found in many other churches. So we could focus on real issues, not on increasingly strict standards of “proper behavior” and judging others.

You make an excellent point. I do think though that being that even the Vatican has some rules as to showing skin when you visit, there is something to the whole too much skin thing. There is purpose behind it. The issue does need to be toned down though, including myself.

 

[superamazingman]

Maybe all those parents were wrong for years telling kids to put on their Sunday best with some of the logic here.

An emergency is a different story but miniskirts are designed to be attention grabers and flip flops are sloppy.

Then again, you could toss all attention to dress out the window when going to mass and the whole congregation could have the fancy beach bum look. It would show we really care

This.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This.

There is a difference between not being modest (mini skirts) and being modest but not dressed totally to the nines…

People can be in nice clean jeans…which isn’t beach apparel and there are still those who would be all puckered up and sour about it…some people just like to be miserable.

 

[triumphguy]

A hundred years ago a flash of ankle was enough to rouse the passions.

Remember that Adam and Eve’s nakedness was more modest than our clothed bodies. The lack of modesty does not derive from the dress, but from people’s minds.

 

[DebChris]

I wonder about the choice between “miniskirts and tank tops” and “having everything from the shoulders to the knees covered.” I bought a black dress for work recently. It’s sleeveless and hits about an inch above my knees. This is considered an appropriate and quite tasteful outfit for a young professional woman to wear. Outside of conservative christian culture I have never heard the suggestion that it might be immodest.

Do I believe there is such a thing as modesty? Yes. Do I believe that it is important? Yes. But I came to the catholic church because I was looking for something that could escape the sort of petty in-fighting and holier-than-thou attitudes that I found in many other churches. So we could focus on real issues, not on increasingly strict standards of “proper behavior” and judging others.

Knee length (from 1 inch above to 1 inch below) has been considered the standard of business fashion for decades now, riding the ups and downs of what the fashion industry sets as the seasonal hemline. It was not until the 1980’s, when I moved to WI that a school asked that shoulders be covered. Sheath dresses often are sleeveless. Yes, they can be appropriate for Sunday wear, with or without a jacket, in many communities.

You can watch old movies, from the 40s and 50s, in which women wore sleeveless dresses and men wore sahari shorts as part of their police or army uniform. None were considered immodest.

 

[Daizies]

Daizies, your post inspired me to start a “resource thread”, for the teachings and specific instructions from our clergy, regarding how to dress when visiting a Catholic church. Please see here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9485737#post9485737

Jeans, and pants for women, are not a problem as long as they are not immodest (pants that are too tight or low-riding and expose the midriff or belly area, would be immodest).

Thanks

I know some people have said that everyone knows how to dress for church, but really, not all churches are the same. The same church that I went to where the pastor wore jeans and a t-shirt, the youth pastor usually wore board shorts and a t-shirt. At least 50% of the women wore shorts and tank tops in the summer. I’d say less than 5% wore any sort of dress or skirt, and those that did were often mid-thigh in length. So really, many people don’t know what is considered appropriate.

 

[Nigel7]

I attend mass 7 days/week. It was 104 degrees today. You bet I wore shorts to mass this afternoon. They’re long shorts that cover my knees. It’s not like I’m wearing Daisy Duke’s to mass. And I’m a guy so that would be extra gross anyway.

 

[gabcarter]

Standards of Modesty in Dress
Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956
“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”
The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII
p.s. About that quote - in the book it is noted that "short sleeves were also permitted as a temporary concession, with ecclesiastical approval, because of “impossible market conditions.”

 

[Seeker1961]

I wonder about the choice between “miniskirts and tank tops” and “having everything from the shoulders to the knees covered.” I bought a black dress for work recently. It’s sleeveless and hits about an inch above my knees. This is considered an appropriate and quite tasteful outfit for a young professional woman to wear. Outside of conservative christian culture I have never heard the suggestion that it might be immodest.

Do I believe there is such a thing as modesty? Yes. Do I believe that it is important? Yes. But I came to the catholic church because I was looking for something that could escape the sort of petty in-fighting and holier-than-thou attitudes that I found in many other churches. So we could focus on real issues, not on increasingly strict standards of “proper behavior” and judging others.

Don’t take what happens here on a daily basis as the prevailing attitude of Catholics you will meet at your parish-even the clergy. CAF is leans very much to the conservative side-and yes, some of the discussions here do wander into something that sounds the gospel reading about the Pharisee and the sinner mentioned upthread. “Oh thank you Lord that I am not one of those evil people who wear shorts or sleeveless dresses to church!!”

However, you will find discussions here that are very deep and philosophical, that delve deeply into scripture and Sacred Tradition. And you will find some excellent answers to your questions about theology and spirituality. Stick with those topics and stay away from these types of threads about clothing, music…and “proper behavior”.