Perplexed Protestant

[E.E.N.S]

Faith_is_First:

Sorry to bring this up but earlier in the thread I saw this:

Are there other letters of St. Paul that are in the Canon? For real?

Oh yes there are! For example, in 1Corinthians, Paul says “…in my prior letter to you…” prior to what? I though this was his first letter? And why did Paul on several occassions wish to rather explain things in person (like the Lord’s Supper) as opposed to writing them down?

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4u

I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions that you left open in this thread. Ticket to Heaven

Many sincere Catholics invested a lot of their time in answering your questions on this other thread, and I think you owe it to them to not start another thread rehashing the same old questions.

 

[Peace-bwu]

We Catholcs believe salvation comes through “faith working in love.” The ONLY place the Bible uses the phrase “faith alone” is when St. James condemns the concept.

"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone… so also faith without works is dead." James 2:24,26

Catholics believe that we’re saved by “faith working in love.” It’s not enough to simply say “Jesus is Lord” and accept him into your heart. With His Grace, we must follow his commandments. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned… but that doesn’t mean we are not required to live out that faith by working in love. Living out our faith “working in love” helps to mature our faith and understanding of Christ and it allows God to transform both our lives and the lives of those around us. in ways we cannot imagine. The Scripture you quoted which seems to contradict this is easy to misinterpret, but if you look at it closer you will notice that it doesn’t say “Faith alone, saves us” so there is actually no contradiction between the Scriptures, they are just easily misinterpreted without the benefit of Sacred Tradition. (not to be confused with the “traditions of men”)

I thought you might find this interesting to go along with this topic… I will quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding Christ’s perfect and complete sacrifice, our personal sacrifices and Salvation.

20229 It is right to offer sacrifice to God as a sign of adoration and gratitude, supplication and communion: "Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice.

**2100 Outward sacrifice, to be genuine, must be the expression of spiritual sacrifice: "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit…The prophets of the Old Covenant often denounced sacrifices that were not from the heart or not coupled with love of neighbor. Jesus recalls the words of the prophet Hosea: “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice” The only perfect sacrifice is the one that Christ offered on the cross as a total offering to the Father’s love and for our salvation. By uniting ourselves with his sacrifice we can make our lives a sacrifice. **

I enjoy this topic, a good thread, thank you for posting it.:clapping:
I hope my post is of benefit!
Peace Be With You

 

[Peace-bwu]

I’m so confused!

I’m having trouble reconciling these passages with the following.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:4-5)

and

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The Catholic teaching is firm that we do not “earn” our salvation. Paul is referring to people who brag about their faith and who do works and brag about them to others, as if they are better than others and trying to “earn” their salvation. Paul is putting a reality check on the Church by reminding them that their salvation is a gift from God and they should not strive to belittle others by bragging about having a stronger faith… that without Salvation being a free gift from the Mercy of God, they would not have it by themselves. Notice He doesn’t condemn works, or say they should not be doing works in love. When the topic or works comes up he says “faith without works is dead.” I dont think any of us want a dead faith.
and

**
**
"… God … has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. …" (2 Timothy 1:8-9)

Right… if we had to do works for Salvation, it would leave out people who are incapable of living out their faith by working through love. Works can also refer to the Sacraments such as Baptism… which saves through sanctifying grace from Jesus (also available to infants and those unable to speak for themselves, although this may go against most protestant beliefs regarding Baptism) Again, this doesn’t say we should *not *be doing these works, and says nothing requiring “faith alone”

What is your definition of a “holy life?” we are called to live a holy life, a life of prayer, adoring God, faith, hope charity, obeying His commandments which include the Sacraments Jesus gave us. “God saved us and called us to a holy life” I see nothing contradictory to living out our faith in works of love. This deepens our relationship with Jesus, it helps prune us to be what God designed us to be. We would not seek God without Him calling us.

and

"… God our Savior … saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy… " (Titus 3:5)

There is nothing we do to earn our salvation, the works do not save us, but this passage says nothing to forbid works or say they are not a necessary element to live out our faith, and it says nothing regarding “faith alone”

The first two passages of Scripture seem to say that the good things we do somehow contribute to our salvation, while the last four passages seem to contradict this.

I’m a firm believer that “contradictions” in the Bible are not real but only apparent. However, i don’t know how the last four passages may be interpreted any other way than to mean that the good things we do do not contribute to our receiving eternal life.

There is no contradiciton between all of these Scriptures if they are properly interpreted, and not taken out of context. If this doesn’t satisfy the question, let me know and I will delve deeper I like this topic.

 

[Steve_M]

Peace-bwu:

The Catholic teaching is firm that we do not “earn” our salvation.

Paul is referring to people who brag about their faith and who do works and brag about them to others, as if they are better than others and trying to “earn” their salvation. Paul is putting a reality check on the Church by reminding them that their salvation is a gift from God and they should not strive to belittle others by bragging about having a stronger faith… that without Salvation being a free gift from the Mercy of God, they would not have it by themselves. Notice He doesn’t condemn works, or say they should not be doing works in love. When the topic or works comes up he says “faith without works is dead.” I dont think any of us want a dead faith.
and

Right… if we had to do works for Salvation, it would leave out people who are incapable of living out their faith by working through love.
This is somewhat like what I was referring to earlier. The only obligation God would have to us is if we followed the law perfectly. Humans can’t. Threfore, salvation only comes through Gods grace. If we live right because of our faith in him, because of his grace he gives salvation. (This is of course after initial justification which is through Christ’s sacrifice.) We are not earning it. We could never earn it.

The people weren’t necessarily bragging about how good their works were, they were braging to non-Jews that God gave them the law, so they were somehow better that everyone else. Keep in mind that this is when the Jews were sending out missionaries in order to get people to follow the God of Israel. This is why Paul contrasts the Jews trying, unsuccessfully, to follow the letter of the Law, while completely missing the spirit of the Law, with the Gentiles who follow the spirit of the Law without having the Law written down for them.

And I agree, this is an interesting topic.

 

[Emmaus]

Socrates,

Here is a link to my answer.

bcpl.net/~spohl/Justification.htm

Paul’s primary point about works was that nothing we do can obligate God to save us. We can not make God do anything. God saves us because God loves us and because He wants to save us, not because He is obliged to save us because of anything we have done to merit His grace.Our good works, “the obedience of faith”, flow from faith, which itself is a gift from God, God’s love for us does not flow from our works.

The “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26) is as different from the “works of the law” as are the commandments written on stone from the commandments written on our hearts.

Paul never says we are saved by “faith alone” and James never says we are saved by “works alone.” Paul speaks of “the obedience of faith” and “faith working in love” (Galatians 5:6) while James says “faith without works is dead” (James 2:24-26). They both use Abraham as the example of faithful obedience. Abraham’s faith was not passive but an active response to God’s call.

If “faith without works is dead” faith (James 2:26), then works of faith as opposed to Works of the Law (i.e. circumcision) are living faith in action, or what St. Pauls calls “faith working in love”(Gal 5:6) or “the obdedience of faith” (Rom 1:5, 16:26)

The New Testament speaks of Old Testament saints who were saved by obedient faith in God. Abraham is the prime example spoken of in Romans 4 and James 2:21-26. So we know the Old Testament faithful were saved by faith in the promised Messiah.

To say that doing good works means nothing contradicts the scripture. If you do good works in Christ you are doing His work. Take a look at theses passages and put your mind at rest.
Matt 7:21
Matt 19:16-17
Matt 25:34-46
John 14:21
Romans 2:28
Galatians 5:4-6
Ephesians 2:8-10
Philemon 2:12-13
James 2:14-24

That being said: “faith without works is dead” James 2:20,26 is crystal clear and intentionally blunt. Faith in Christ cannot be separated from works in Christ or you don’t really have any Faith to show, only a lifeless corpse of a mental concept without any spiritual substance and of no earthly good either. They are two side of the same coin. We know James is speaking about the same Faith as Paul because they both use Abraham’s faith as the illustrating example. Paul never says we are saved by faith alone and James never says we are saved by works alone but he does says: “we are not saved by faith alone” James 2:24. If you look at James and Paul in full context it is clear that faith in Christ and works in Christ are inseparable if we are talking about a living saving faith. It is no accident that Paul opens and closes Romans with the phrase “the obedience of faith” Romans 1:5 and 16:26, which fits perfectly with Galatians 5:5 and James. It is not a matter of works adding to faith. Works in Christ are the physical embodiment and manifestation of faith in Christ, without which faith is dead. For human beings as created and as God intended us to be, the body and the spirit are an integrated unit. That is why our redemption is not complete until our bodies are resurrected at the Second Coming. It goes without saying that works in Christ are not the same thing as “works of the law” such as circumcision, which Paul is often speaking about in Romans. The “obedience of faith” is as different from the “works of the law” as are the commandments written on stone from the commandments written on our hearts.

Paul’s primary point about works was that what we do can not obligate God to save us. We can not make God do anything. God saves us because God loves us and because He wants to save us, not because we make Him obliged to save us.Our good works flow from our faith in God’s love for us, God’s love for us does not flow from our works.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Socrates4Jesus:

No, it is very theological! & I agree! It IS God’s grace (which means His undeserved favor) alone that saves us. The repentance & faith is only the way we receive that love we do not deserve…

…I’m just trying to figure out if the good works we do are also the way we receive His love. Or does He love us enough to give us eternal life before we even begin to love Him in return?

Yes he does love us enough to give us eternal life before we even begin to love Him in return… but we are responsible for accepting that love and grace and allowing it to transform us. We are not saved until we die and Jesus saves us. The Bible warns believers many times to persevere in faith and be obedient to the end.
**“Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in times of trial.” Luke 8:13 **
We can’t know for sure in this world that we will have eternal life,in heaven. “The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments” 1 John 2:3 We can’t accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then disobey Him… Our obedience is necessary for salvation… this is also a repeating theme throughout Scripture… The sin of the world was cleansed with water in the flood (prefiguring Baptism) and Noah’s obedience to God is what saved him. Abraham’s obedience to God’s command to sacrifice his son Isaac, “opened the door” for God to make a covenant that He would send His own son, the perfect sacrificial lamb. Mary’s obedience to God’s Will is what allowed Christ to grow in her womb and enter the world as a human being, to save man from sin and death.

First let me repeat, Salvation is a gift, but it must be accepted in faith, hope and charity. Charity means living out this faith through acts of love
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." Philippians 2:12-13

**St Augustine said “When God rewards our merits, he rewards his own gifts to us.” **

"He saved us… that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" Titus 3:5,7

We are assured that God desires us to live in heaven and give us the necessary grace. This is what we call “hope” However, we must persevere to the end.

 

[Emmaus]

Socrates,

Of course we can always look at the Council of Trent on Justification

"The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one’s disposition and cooperation.

For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.

For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]

For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]

This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.

…

HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM#1

 

[Peace-bwu]

Socrates4Jesus:

I’m not sure if we’re getting off the specific subject, though. I’m trying to determine what evidence there is that the good works are somehow a cause of receiving eternal life. Or, perhaps, how the passages i quoted above support Catholic theology.

Please don’t think I am being sarcastic here, but I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from… What specific Catholic theology do you mean?

I guess I want to make sure that the definition of the official Catholic theology you are referring to is stated in this thread, and that all those in this discussion know what it is. If this specific Catholic theology is stated clearly in the thread and I missed it, I apologize.

This is a crucial element for the discussion.
Thank you in advance.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Steve M:

This is somewhat like what I was referring to earlier. The only obligation God would have to us is if we followed the law perfectly. Humans can’t. Threfore, salvation only comes through Gods grace. If we live right because of our faith in him, because of his grace he gives salvation. (This is of course after initial justification which is through Christ’s sacrifice.) We are not earning it. We could never earn it.

The people weren’t necessarily bragging about how good their works were, they were braging to non-Jews that God gave them the law, so they were somehow better that everyone else. Keep in mind that this is when the Jews were sending out missionaries in order to get people to follow the God of Israel. This is why Paul contrasts the Jews trying, unsuccessfully, to follow the letter of the Law, while completely missing the spirit of the Law, with the Gentiles who follow the spirit of the Law without having the Law written down for them.

And I agree, this is an interesting topic.

Sorry, I didn’t read all of the posts before I posted, I responded to the origional question without reading all the posts, if I repeated something you already stated, it was unintentional, and if something I wrote seems to contradict something you wrote it was also unintentional, I have not read the posts you wrote yet. There are so many posts, I scanned a litte, but if I read them all before posting I would be awake all night. Just consider my post on the same level as the first replies to the origional question.

I am aware of the specifics you pointed out about the Jews bragging to non-Jews about the law, I just wasn’t getting into such specifics to keep the post tighter. I also feel this attitude displayed by the Jews to non-jews is still present among Christians today, and could apply to our lives. Again, sorry if I said something that contradicted your post I am not aware of. I will attempt to find it and read it now.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

arso347:

…Therefore, to be with Jesus in Heaven, we must “follow him” there, or become his disciple daily. Not some days, but every day, repenting when we fall. It really boils down to being a disciple of Jesus. The theological debate will ensue, but if we are sincerely trying to be a disciple, constantly fighting our own passions, we will follow him. …

Arso:

I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

E.E.N.S.:

Yes, however, Paul also says his oral words are those of God’s as well…

EENS:

When i said, “I might understand how we should add the words ‘apart from faith’ to one of the passages if they were contained in the other three. However, for St. Paul to leave these words out four times seems more intentional than unintentional.”

what i meant to ask was: Is there agreement that the words “apart from faith” should not be added to the four verses i mentioned in the beginning of the thread?

That’s the paradox i’m trying to resolve between the 1st two passages & the last four passages mentioned in the 1st post. Thus, if St. Paul meant that we are not saved by good works apart from faith, then why did he not write that? He was very aware that some were taking what he wrote out of context. It would have been easy for him to elevate confusion if he just added these three words to each passage. But he did not.

So i’m thinking that he did not add these words because he did not intend to convey that meaning. What he was trying to do is to point out that good works we do (with or without the Spirit’s help) may contribute to the rewards we receive in heaven, but do not in any way help us merit heaven.

See what i mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Matt16_18:

It is disagreement on this point that has led Protestants to develop their bad theologies of forensic justification and OSAS!

These forums do not exist so that you can blithely ignore questions that you find difficult. That indicates arrogance and contempt for the person asking the questions. I know that I have asked you difficult questions, and if you are honest about learning, you will answer my questions to the best of your ability. Don’t forget, we remember you stringing us along not so long ago by pretending that you were here to learn, only to find out that you had a hidden agenda all along.

We are willing to give you another chance. How about playing it straight with us?

Please answer ALL the questions that I have directed to you to the best of your ability, before you ask more questions. It is the just thing to do!

…

Matt16:

The difficulty i’m having is that i know of no other applicable definitions of mercy & grace, & i do not think you are asking me to be dishonest & claim that i do.

What might help me see things your way would be if you would give me your definitions of mercy & grace so i might consider them.

If you want to debate, that’s OK, for i do not mind doing so. However, my question in the 1st post is sincere, as i do not know how to resolve the paradox i mentioned at 1st & am asking for help. If you do not wish to help me, that’s OK. We may enjoy the argument. But, i will still hope that someone else may help me understand.

 

[Steve_M]

" God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." (Romans 2:6)

and

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” (Galatians 6:7)

We do good deeds and God rewards us with eternal life, not because we did anything that impressed him, but because by us trying to do what he say, it displays our faith in him. That’s his gift of grace.

I’m having trouble reconciling these passages with the following.

“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:4-5)

wages, obligation. These are contractual terms. They indicated God would be bound to reward everyone that followed the Law perfectly, which humans can’t do.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Grace through faith, that’s the gift. Not by works, so that no one can boast, is a reference to the Jews boasting to non-Jews that they had the law so God had an obligation to grant them salvation.

“… God … has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. …” (2 Timothy 1:8-9)

His grace, again it’s his gift. But how do we accept that gift? We try to do what he says.

"… God our Savior … saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy… " (Titus 3:5)

Our righeousness is like “filthy rags”. We could never be righeous enough to have God obligated to grant us salvation. All we can do is to do our best. Then we depend on God showing mercy to us on the day of judgement.

I keep harping on the obligation versus the gift, but that’s how Paul’s writings have to be understood, otherwise there will appear to be contradictions.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Steve M:

My fault. I didn’t read all of them, I just scanned them. I didn’t realize you had added anything to each of them. I was looking at the obligagation and wage comments. If you pull verses out of context, you’ll lose the full meaning. As I mentioned earlier, Paul said we’re made for good works. Jesus says to follow the commandments, and James says were justified by works not faith alone. So we know works are necessary …

As far as adding things to scripture. It was Martin Luther who added the word alone after faith in order to teach his new docrtine. Faith alone only appears once in the entire Bible, James 2:24, and it say you’re justified by works and not by faith alone.

I do appreciate your honesty, Steve. The Protestants i know actually teach that we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. They teach that repentance & saving faith are like two sides of the same coin & good works are always the result. And i do agree with you that every true Christian will prove that he is to others by the good that he does (or, more accurately, by the good he allows the Holy Ghost to do through him). Jesus said:

“By this all men will know you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

My concern is with causation & where my trust should reside. This idea that St. Paul teaches that we should not trust in the good works the Spirit does in us to obtain eternal life is the only logical barrier between my remaining a Protestant & becoming a “re-vert” (for i was raised in the Catholic church).

Perhaps it might help me see things your way if you would explain how the immediate context of St. Paul’s letters demonstrate that good works somehow merit eternal life for you & me. Is this taught in Romans, Ephesians, 2 Timothy or Titus?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Steve M:

We do good deeds and God rewards us with eternal life … That’s his gift of grace … Grace through faith, that’s the gift. Not by works, so that no one can boast … His grace, again it’s his gift. But how do we accept that gift? We try to do what he says… Our righeousness is like “filthy rags”. We could never be righeous enough to have God obligated to grant us salvation. All we can do is to do our best. Then we depend on God showing mercy to us on the day of judgement. I keep harping on the obligation versus the gift, but that’s how Paul’s writings have to be understood, otherwise there will appear to be contradictions.

Steve,

Thanks for harping! as i’m often slow to understand new ideas. The difficulty i have with your statement is that you describe eternal life as a reward & also as a gift, but i understand a gift to not be a reward & a reward to not be a gift. A reward is something one earns. If indeed eternal life were a reward, then God would be obligated to give it to us.

If my employer were to give me a raise in pay, for example, i would not consider that a gift, but a reward for my performance on the job & something i had earned & the employer was obligated to pay. On the other hand, if my employer were to give me a Christmas bonus, that would be a gift as it would not be something i had earned or might demand from my employer. I see eternal life like a Christmas bonus.

Since eternal life is a gift, God is in no way obligated to give it to us because it is not based on our performance (i.e. not based on the good works we allow the Spirit to produce in us). As St. Paul wrote:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

Perhaps if you might find any passage of Scripture that describes eternal life as a reward i might be able to see things your way.

 

[Steve_M]

Socrates4Jesus:

Steve,

Perhaps if you might find any passage of Scripture that describes eternal life as a reward i might be able to see things your way.

This doesn’t use the word reward, but “being paid according to his works” sound a lot like a reward. It’s not something we deserve, of course, but it is something we trust that God will give us if we do what he says. Reward was just my word trying to think of a way to explain it. I think Paul explains it here pretty well.

Romans 2:5-8
“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Matt16_18:

…Can a person be “saved” that does not have Jesus as his Lord? If a Christian willfully chooses disobedience to God over obedience to God, will he earn the wages of sin?

I’d say absolutely not if one continues to commit sin that he knows to be sin & does not repent. Saving faith is impossible without repentance. Since our good works show whether we have genuine faith, one who lives like the devil & says he has repented & is now trusting Christ is deceiving others or himself. As James wrote:

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?” (James 2:14) The obvious answer is, “No, that kind of faith cannot save anyone.”

However, James does not indicate that the good works we do save us from hell, does he?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Steve M:

This doesn’t use the word reward, but “being paid according to his works” sound a lot like a reward. It’s not something we deserve, of course, but it is something we trust that God will give us if we do what he says. Reward was just my word trying to think of a way to explain it. I think Paul explains it here pretty well.

Romans 2:5-8
“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

Yes it does, Steve. Hence, i’m having trouble understanding why this passage seems to contradict Romans 4:4-5. I’m thinking the contradiction is not real but only apparent & that i’m either misunderstanding one passage or the other.

I don’t want to live with any doubt about what to believe here, for James writes:

“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord…” (James 1:5-7).

And Paul warns that “everything that does not come from faith is sin” (Romans 14:23).

 

[Steve_M]

Socrates4Jesus:

Yes it does, Steve. Hence, i’m having trouble understanding why this passage seems to contradict Romans 4:4-5. I’m thinking the contradiction is not real but only apparent & that i’m either misunderstanding one passage or the other.

Romans 4:4-5 is the obligation. There is a contract, the Law. If man follows the contract perfectly, God is obligated to pay him with salvation. It’s an employer employee type relationship. When you work, your boss has to pay you the agreed upon wage for that work. However, If you ask a friend to help you move, then you buy him lunch for helping you, that is your gift to him for what he did. Were you obligated to give it to him? Absolutely not. That’s the same as Romans 2:5-8. God asks us to live for him, and if we do his gift will be salvation. He is under on contract to provide it. He just gives it to those that follow him. That’s what he’s saying. If you follow the law perfectly I owe you this. You can’t follow it perfectly, so if that’s what you’re trying to do, you’ll fail. I love you and if you show me you love me by living the spirit of the Law, not the letter, then I’ll find it in the kindness of my heart to grant you a gift. That gift is salvation.

I hope that makes sense. I’m half way writing and half way doing work. You know the kind my employer is obligated to pay me for.