Perseverance of the Saints

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671746:

So all men are born again - and justified?

Rather these passages mean - “all in Adam” DIE, and “all in Christ” are MADE ALIVE.

Are all men in Christ?

Or can a man be born again and justified without being in Christ?

Are you a universalist? Do you reject the idea that millions will perish? If not - then why would you put forth these passages, as if these are universal absolutes? They are not.

Christ will draw men from all people groups

• as Rev. 5:9 teaches:

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

All men are led to justification, not justified. You are trying to read your dogma into the scripture. It isn’t there.

It doesn’t say ALL IN CHRIST are made alive, it says ALL. Again you are trying to read your dogma into the scripture. It isn’t there.

It doesn’t say ALL GROUPS, it says ALL. You are attempting to write your dogma into scripture. It isn’t there.

 

[Frontline]

Frontline;4671777:

It teaches us that God gives us free will.

All are called by not all will come. If you don’t come it is not God’s fault, it is your own.

It fits perfectly.

Does it not teach that all men by their own wills (which wills are in bondage to sin) always reject the gospel until God compels them by His great power?

 

[Frontline]

What are the plants sprung up from the sowing of the seed (the Word of God) if not faith? You need to interpret I John 5 in the light of these words of Christ (and some other words of Paul, Peter, John, etc.) John is encouraging but he is not saying anyone who is baptized has a free ticket to Heaven.

What does 1 John 5:1-4 actually say?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671786:

Does it not teach that all men by their own wills (which wills are in bondage to sin) always reject the gospel until God compels them by His great power?

No.

God calls all, but not all accept.

God wants us all to accept his call, but he doesn’t force us.

 

[Frontline]

Frontline;4671781:

It doesn’t say ALL IN CHRIST are made alive, it says ALL.

All men are in Christ then?

“For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.”

Clearly then you must believe that all men WILL BE made alive IN CHRIST. If this is so - then All men will be in Christ.

This is careless exegesis.

 

[Frontline]

Frontline;4671835:

No.

God calls all, but not all accept.

God wants us all to accept his call, but he doesn’t force us.

What is your definition of COMPEL? (Luke 14:23)

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671832:

All men are in Christ then?

It doesn’t say that either. All are made alive. We are no longer dead mean. We are now free to accept the grace of God and follow.

"For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

"

Clearly then you must believe that all men WILL BE made alive IN CHRIST. If this is so - then All men will be in Christ.
This is careless exegesis.

All men are made alive in Christ. This does not mean that all are justified or saved.

You keep ignoring the crystal clear words of scripture:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to **all.**Rom 11:32

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so **all will be made alive **in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[Frontline]

What is your definition of DRAW in John 6:44?

The Greek word is ELKO - which means to DRAG

“And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and dragged [elko] them into the marketplace unto the rulers.” (Acts 16:19)

“Simon Peter went up, and drew [elko] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.” (John 21:11)

Did the fish in the net come of “their own free will” ??

Or did Peter simply DRAG them?

What is your definition of DRAG?

 

[Frontline]

Frontline;4671852:

All men are made alive in Christ. This does not mean that all are justified or saved. You keep ignoring the crystal clear words of scripture:

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die

in Adam, so **all will be made alive **in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Where do all men die? The text says - IN ADAM.

Where are all men made alive? The text says - IN CHRIST.

So how can all men be made alive IN CHRIST, when not all men are IN CHRIST? Are you a closet- universalist?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What is your definition of DRAW in John 6:44?

The Greek word is ELKO - which means to DRAG

“And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and dragged [elko] them into the marketplace unto the rulers.” (Acts 16:19)

“Simon Peter went up, and drew [elko] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.” (John 21:11)

Did the fish in the net come of “their own free will” ??

Or did Peter simply DRAG them?

What is your definition of DRAG?

I didn’t even quote that verse.

Why can’t you address the verses I quoted?

Since Jesus later says that he will draw ALL men to himself, I don’t see why it matters.

We can still walk away.

John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit”.

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671877:

So how can all men be made alive IN CHRIST, when not all men are IN CHRIST?

All things are possible with God.

If you can’t conform the scripture to your dogma, then it is not the fault of scripture, it is a problem with your dogma.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.Rom 11:32

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[Frontline]

I didn’t even quote that verse.

Why can’t you address the verses I quoted?

I already addressed them - and you rejected my interpretation, why should we go around in a circle? Yet you just completely side-stepped my point. You are running!

 

[Frontline]

All things are possible with God.

What a cop-out!

So God can save men IN CHRIST - who are not even IN CHRIST?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671877:

Where do all men die? The text says - IN ADAM.

Where are all men made alive? The text says - IN CHRIST.

So how can all men be made alive IN CHRIST, when not all men are IN CHRIST? Are you a closet- universalist?

ALL die in Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

It is the same group of people.

Just because we have been made alive in Christ doesn’t mean we will persevere.

It is up to us to follow God’s will with help of his grace.

 

[Frontline]

Frontline;4671920:

ALL die in Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

It is the same group of people.

Just because we have been made alive in Christ doesn’t mean we will persevere.

It is up to us to follow God’s will with help of his grace.

SO my question is: Are all men in Christ? Yes or no?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671971:

SO my question is: Are all men in Christ? Yes or no?

Absolutely not.

However, this is not God’s choice, it is their choice.

All have been made alive in Christ. Not all will persevere.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

What does 1 John 5:1-4 actually say?

It is an exhortation to love one another and an encouragement that Christians can overcome this passing world through Christ who dwells in us. It does not say we will certainly persevere. If it did, why would John have written in the same book:

"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. "

"And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. "

The only way the whole letter is consistent is if John encourages Christians and gives them tools to pick out false prophets, but also warns Christians to do good and not to fall away.

 

[Frontline]

I asked whether all men are in Christ or not.

You said:

Absolutely not . . . All have been made alive in Christ. Not all will persevere.

Does anyone here see this contradiction?

How then can all men be made alive in Christ - when not all men are in Christ?

Then you add - “not all will persevere.”

So you are basically saying one of the two:

1. All men are in Christ [because they have been made alive in Christ] but they will not endure unto the end.
2. Not all men are in Christ - because not all men persevere [making perseverance the inevitable outcome of being in Christ]

What is your position?

Are all men in Christ or not - I mean, you say NO - but then continue to claim that All are made alive IN CHRIST.

You are parroting the passage - and not properly interpreting it.

Does anyone see this - do any Catholics want to help their friend out here?

The proper way to interpret the passage is this:

ALL who are in Adam - die.

ALL who are in Christ - are made alive.

Otherwise you become an advocate of universalism.

So what about the term DRAW: ELKO ?? (John 6:44)
And what about the term COMPEL ?? (Luke 14:23)
And what about the passage 1 John 5:1-4 ??

Until you address these relevant points - it is clear that you are simply a parrot - and are not interested in a true discussion. You are talking in circles. When a passage comes up, we should discuss it - state our positions on it, scrutinize eachothers interpretations - and then when it is obvious that the readers of the thread have enough material from each side on this one point - we move onto another. We do not need to repeat ourselves over and over and over - this is not helpful to the readers.

Please address my questions for the sake of all those who are waiting for an answer - Catholics and Protestants alike. Thanks - I will check it later! Good luck!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I asked whether all men are in Christ or not.

You said:

Does anyone here see this contradiction?

How then can all men be made alive in Christ - when not all men are in Christ?

Then you add - “not all will persevere.”

So you are basically saying one of the two:

1. All men are in Christ [because they have been made alive in Christ] but they will not endure unto the end.
2. Not all men are in Christ - because not all men persevere [making perseverance the inevitable outcome of being in Christ]

What is your position?

Are all men in Christ or not - I mean, you say NO - but then continue to claim that All are made alive IN CHRIST.

You are parroting the passage - and not properly interpreting it.

Does anyone see this - do any Catholics want to help their friend out here?

The proper way to interpret the passage is this:

ALL who are in Adam - die.

ALL who are in Christ - are made alive.

Otherwise you become an advocate of universalism.

So what about the term DRAW: ELKO ?? (John 6:44)
And what about the term COMPEL ?? (Luke 14:23)
And what about the passage 1 John 5:1-4 ??

Until you address these relevant points - it is clear that you are simply a parrot - and are not interested in a true discussion. You are talking in circles. When a passage comes up, we should discuss it - state our positions on it, scrutinize eachothers interpretations - and then when it is obvious that the readers of the thread have enough material from each side on this one point - we move onto another. We do not need to repeat ourselves over and over and over - this is not helpful to the readers.

Please address my questions for the sake of all those who are waiting for an answer - Catholics and Protestants alike. Thanks - I will check it later! Good luck!

All men were made alive in Christ, ie. through his sacrifice. I believe this because that is what it says in the bible.

I don’t contend, nor does scripture, that all men are in Christ.

There is no contradiction.

The bible tells us that Christ draws ALL men to himself.

Do you believe this?

The bible tells us that God wants ALL men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you believe this?

If perseverence of the Saints was up to God, then there would be no other possibility but universal salvation.

However, this is not what the bible teaches.

 

[cfrancis]

Again - being in heaven is not equivalent to “being saved.”

This is your mistake - you make salvation a purely future event, rather than taking into consideration the past tense aspects of salvation as well. Those who “have been” saved certainly “will be” saved - (Romans 8:30; Phil. 1:6)

First, I do not view salvation as a purely future attempt; you may now remove your straw man. I believe it is a process from which anyone can turn away.
What, exaclty, is yor definition of “being saved” mean to you, and what is the end result of “being saved?” By your own words above, someone who “is saved” "“certainly ‘will be’ save” and if that does not mean “will be in heaven with God” then you we have bigger issues. Or perhaps there is someplace else the saved go when they leave this world? You stated:

However, because you do not see a person as being ‘saved’ until he experiences all of his inheritance - you must cut out of your theological considerations - all that the bible says concerning the past tense aspects of our salvation.

What exactly is the “inheritance” of one who “is saved/will be saved” if it is eternal life in heaven???
You are left with “being/will be saved” = “attaining heaven” which Paul clearly says he has not done.