Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[wmscott]

PART ONE

OK, back to the Ops original statement. Let us look at the Authoritative Church as cited in Sacred Scripture. I have expanded the verses and proivided footnotes to further explain in context.

First, some words of wisdom from the Early Church Fathers regarding personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture. (For the full version, see the attached document.)

“For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 7:16 (post A.D. 202).

“When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ’ (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God.” Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254).

 

[wmscott]

PART TWO

AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH

**Mt 28:18-20 **

18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

**Note: **[18] All power . . . me: the Greek word here translated power is the same as that found in the LXX translation of Daniel 7:13-14 where one “like a son of man” is given power and an everlasting kingdom by God. The risen Jesus here claims universal power, i.e., in heaven and on earth.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Note: [19] Therefore: since universal power belongs to the risen Jesus (Matthew 28:18), he gives the eleven a mission that is universal. They are to make disciples of all nations. While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well. Baptizing them: baptism is the means of entrance into the community of the risen one, the Church. In the name of the Father . . . holy Spirit: this is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of Trinitarian belief. It may have been the baptismal formula of Matthew’s church, but primarily it designates the effect of baptism, the union of the one baptized with the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Note: [20] All that I have commanded you: the moral teaching found in this gospel, preeminently that of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). The commandments of Jesus are the standard of Christian conduct, not the Mosaic law as such, even though some of the Mosaic commandments have now been invested with the authority of Jesus. Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus’ real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative; see the note on Matthew 1:23. End of the age: see the notes on Matthew 13:39 and Matthew 24:3.

Jn 20:23

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Note: [23] The Council of Trent defined that this power to forgive sins is exercised in the sacrament of penance. See Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18.

Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice

16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Mt 18:18 - power to legislate

18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Note: [18] Except for the plural of the verbs bind and loose, this verse is practically identical with Matthew 16:19b and many scholars understand it as granting to all the disciples what was previously given to Peter alone. For a different view, based on the different contexts of the two verses, see the note on Matthew 16:19.

**Mt 18:17 **- power to discipline

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Note: [17] The church: the second of the only two instances of this word in the gospels; see the note on Matthew 16:18. Here it refers not to the entire church of Jesus, as in Matthew 16:18, but to the local congregation. Treat him . . . a Gentile or a tax collector: just as the observant Jew avoided the company of Gentiles and tax collectors, so must the congregation of Christian disciples separate itself from the arrogantly sinful member who refuses to repent even when convicted of his sin by the whole church. Such a one is to be set outside the fellowship of the community. The harsh language about Gentile and tax collector probably reflects a stage of the Matthean church when it was principally composed of Jewish Christians. That time had long since passed, but the principle of exclusion for such a sinner remained. Paul makes a similar demand for excommunication in 1 Cor 5:1-13.

 

[wmscott]

PART THREE

AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH

Matthew 16:18 – 19

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

**Note: **[18] You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 (“Peter”). It is translated as Petros (“Peter”) in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus’ statement would have been, in English, “You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church.” The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple’s new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, “rock.” Church: this word (Greek ekklesia) occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice). There are several possibilities for an Aramaic original. Jesus’ church means the community that he will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld (Greek Hades, the abode of the dead) is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Note: [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter’s exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 4:6

6 We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

**Note: **We (Christians) are of God, have received the Spirit; we, the apostles of Christ, were lawfully sent by him. — He that knows God, hears us, &c. That is, they who love and serve God, and comply with the doctrine of his Son, Jesus Christ, hear and follow the doctrine which we were commissioned by him to teach. — He that is not of God, hears us not. They are not of God, who refuses to hear and obey the voice of the Church and those whom Christ appointed to govern his Church, as hath been observed elsewhere. — By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Here St. John gives them the second general mark and rule, to preserve them and all Christians from errors and heresies to the end of the world. He that knows God, hears us Apostles, whom he sent, and hears our successors, invested with the same mission and authority, whom Christ sent, as his heavenly Father sent him, whom he appointed to govern his Church, and with whom he promised to remain to the end of the world.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Thank you friend, Great post. I’m about to sit down and fully read what you have to say, then get back to you.

Meanwhile, It is difficult to teach a new concept, in the face of so much adversity. I never claim to be anything but some layman who reads the bible. Just like everybody else CAN BE IF THEY OPEN THE BIBLE AND SPEND THE TIME

The point about some not haveing the time is UTTERLY RICICULOUS. This is YOUR salvation, if your life is too bogged down with serving MAMMON, then this is your perogative, the Bible has been made available for the world to study and learn from. This is your own fault if you use this excuse.

Next point, Learning at a Seminary and obtaining a Theology degree is EXACTLY why you will never see this NEW TRUTH. [daniel 12] You just spent many years learning what the church deemed important to teach. VEry important precepts were missed or taught wrong or just completely ignored. Yes yes, you have to know this. If you think you learned everything there was to know from the seminary then why continue to study.

the fact is, that Catholic seminary teaches you to obey the Church Doctrine First and Foremost. thereby makeing the actuall bible take a back seat.

This is why unless you are objective and wipe the pride away, you can never read the bible for what it is.

God does this on purpose, He set a trap. Which is why he spoke in parables, lest they have ears and understand the truth, and eyes to see the truth, but no, We in general don’t have the ability to discern the parable, which is why it was for Peter and the apostles, for they were given the keys to heaven. Which is understanding of the bible. Paul spent those years being prisoner before his trial in Rome debating the bible, persuading people of the truth from the word, not what he thought the word meant, exactly what it meant, which is what i am saying, because i can discern a parable at least somewhat know that my spiritual eyes have been open. Some people left unsatisfied, others stayed and talked with him all day and night. Just like here and now. Most of you now will walk away not believing, but you also wont read the scripture in psalms saying that only by reading reading reading reading reading, the same passage the same passage the same verse, comparing the same verse to a nother similar verse, will you maybe begin to discern.

sorry buddy, this is what it says. it says we can be WISER THAN SCHOLARS, and SMARTER than established doctrine. It says this because the truth is for us to have in th bible. for those who have trouble getting the mesage, they should ask questions from credible sources, namely the bible.

 

[estesbob]

Thank you friend, Great post. I’m about to sit down and fully read what you have to say, then get back to you.

Meanwhile, It is difficult to teach a new concept, in the face of so much adversity. I never claim to be anything but some layman who reads the bible. Just like everybody else CAN BE IF THEY OPEN THE BIBLE AND SPEND THE TIME

The point about some not haveing the time is UTTERLY RICICULOUS. This is YOUR salvation, if your life is too bogged down with serving MAMMON, then this is your perogative, the Bible has been made available for the world to study and learn from. This is your own fault if you use this excuse.

Next point, Learning at a Seminary and obtaining a Theology degree is EXACTLY why you will never see this NEW TRUTH. [daniel 12] You just spent many years learning what the church deemed important to teach. VEry important precepts were missed or taught wrong or just completely ignored. Yes yes, you have to know this. If you think you learned everything there was to know from the seminary then why continue to study.

the fact is, that Catholic seminary teaches you to obey the Church Doctrine First and Foremost. thereby makeing the actuall bible take a back seat.

This is why unless you are objective and wipe the pride away, you can never read the bible for what it is.

God does this on purpose, He set a trap. Which is why he spoke in parables, lest they have ears and understand the truth, and eyes to see the truth, but no, We in general don’t have the ability to discern the parable, which is why it was for Peter and the apostles, for they were given the keys to heaven. Which is understanding of the bible. Paul spent those years being prisoner before his trial in Rome debating the bible, persuading people of the truth from the word, not what he thought the word meant, exactly what it meant, which is what i am saying, because i can discern a parable at least somewhat know that my spiritual eyes have been open. Some people left unsatisfied, others stayed and talked with him all day and night. Just like here and now. Most of you now will walk away not believing, but you also wont read the scripture in psalms saying that only by reading reading reading reading reading, the same passage the same passage the same verse, comparing the same verse to a nother similar verse, will you maybe begin to discern.

sorry buddy, this is what it says. it says we can be WISER THAN SCHOLARS, and SMARTER than established doctrine. It says this because the truth is for us to have in th bible. for those who have trouble getting the mesage, they should ask questions from credible sources, namely the bible.

You have yet to answer why we should accept your personal interpeation of Scripture. Mocking my education and claiming that all who disagree with you are ignorant is a cop out. The simple thruth is your whole premise is flaty refuted by the 10s of thousands of different Protestant denominations all peddling their own version of what scripture says.

 

[BibleAnswer]

in previous posts, i have thoughtully and thouroughly sited a multitute of scripture from the bible, to prove my point.

If you wish to contunue the conversation, then i suggest you read it, then form questions that are based of your own know facts and then cite them.

So far if all i get is opinion based off of feeling based off of what you were told.

That is no way to counter a fact written straight from the bible. Opinion verses fact is null.

How can i claim its fact. Because all the pieces fit together. I have connected enough dots to see the spiritual message in the bible. Once you see it, you cannont unsee it. Like one of those 3d pictures.

So if you want to have a nice discussion, and learn something if that is Gods will, or teach something if that is Gods will, then please stop giving an argument which is strictly objective reasoning and logical opinion based off of what you have been told and nothing to do with what i had just said.

Or if that is the way of it, then say something to prove your point, not just blah blah, 2000 years of teaching… blah blah, why should i believe you…

What kind of conversation is that.

 

[greggy53]

God does this on purpose, He set a trap. Which is why he spoke in parables, lest they have ears and understand the truth, and eyes to see the truth, but no.

Bibleanswer, look at what you are saying here…Who is the author of snares and traps? It’s not God. You need to get to a Church, and talk to a minister or someone else you can trust You are being horribly deceived. Our God, Jesus Christ is never deceitful, but our enemy is!

 

[estesbob]

in previous posts, i have thoughtully and thouroughly sited a multitute of scripture from the bible, to prove my point.

All of which were dependent on us accpeting your personal interpretation of the Scripture **you **had posted

If you wish to contunue the conversation, then i suggest you read it, then form questions that are based of your own know facts and then cite them.

It would be helpful if you could explan to us why we should accept **your personal **interpeation of Scripture above all others.

So far if all i get is opinion based off of feeling based off of what you were told.

And all you give is your opinion based on npothing more than your claim that that is what the Spirit told you.

That is no way to counter a fact written straight from the bible. Opinion verses fact is null.

But you have offered no facts-just your opinion on what vverses mean. You have yet to adress the contradiction of thousands of people readng the same verses and coming up with opinion different than** yours**(other than we are ignorant)

How can i claim its fact. Because all the pieces fit together. I have connected enough dots to see the spiritual message in the bible. Once you see it, you cannont unsee it. Like one of those 3d pictures.

But we dont agree all the pieces fit togehter the way** YOU** say they do-in fact thousand and thousands of different denominations disagree on how the peices fit together-how do we resolve that?

So if you want to have a nice discussion, and learn something if that is Gods will, or teach something if that is Gods will, then please stop giving an argument which is strictly objective reasoning and logical opinion based off of what you have been told and nothing to do with what i had just said.

Better we should just accept what you tell us, correct?

Or if that is the way of it, then say something to prove your point, not just blah blah, 2000 years of teaching… blah blah, why should i believe you…

Why should we beleive you?

 

[BibleAnswer]

Good response,

In truth though you have this backwards, there are quite a few quotes teaching us that God spoke in such a way lest people HEAR AND BELIEVE AND BE BAPTISED IN THE SPIRIT AND BE SAVED.

this is by no means decietful, rather like i said, it is a trap, for the true believer to constanstly study to discern the truth from the fiction.

How can you say I am wrong and should go to a priest for SPIRITUAL COUNCILING when the Bible is as spiritual as it gets.

And the fact that Christ said in the Gospels, as well as generally God speaking throughout the whole bible, how he sets snares, and traps. Why because the WHOLE WORLD is not THE CHILDREN OF GOD. Only those chosen, the remnant out of the multitute.

This is why a true child can recognise certain traps and discern the truth. This is not new, and this information has been available yet denied because it conflicts with fundamental teachings of the church.

And of course it would. The bible teaches that traditional sacred ceremonies were deemed null through christ, yet church still practics. We are told that a minister to the lord is poor, takes no wages and earns what he keeps. the church is all about money. We are told that we are to flee from any heirarchy in a church because nobody has spiritual prefererence or authority over anybody else in the whole wide world. jesus is the mediator, Jesus is the person we go to with spiritual forgivness. not a man. And last but not least, Only the Tares will continue to rebel against God, for that is what it is, and disobey. While the Wheat will recognise that something is terribly wrong, and start to question the things. I had questions, and i found answers.

These are just basic principals that are just to incomprehensible for a church

I suggest you go to your bed at night, and open the bible and earnestly study a principal. Look a word up like Love, or hate, or divorce, or hell, or death, or salvation, or etc, then cross reference all the verses to grasp the spiritual meaning of something.

 

[estesbob]

I suggest you go to your bed at night, and open the bible and earnestly study a principal. Look a word up like Love, or hate, or divorce, or hell, or death, or salvation, or etc, then cross reference all the verses to grasp the spiritual meaning of something.

\

I have-and i have come up with diametrically opposed opinions of what it says than you do. How do we resolve that?

If what you say is true then EVERYONE who approached scripture with an open heart would come up with the same answers. yet we know that is not true. There has to be some final authority on how we gain heaven.

 

[BibleAnswer]

No offense, but you cant get any more FACT then by quoting the bible. This is what i did in two of those thourough posts. And i deemed it responsible to teach an appropriate and accurate interpretation.

I asked you to cite your own source, which you still have not, and then to explain it the way you want to, then we will see what makes the most sense and talk about it.

You still disregard all of my statements with little blurbs of opinion. why shoud it, how can you say, why should i. you this, you that.

boring.

uneventful

i accurately quoted verse, and explained it, just like my name implies, bibleanswer.

Do me a favor and elevate the thought process. Go ahead and counter me, just explain something knowledgably like the background you have implies, not a man who only has his emotion and logical reasoning to counter. I would never trust MY MIND to explain anything in the bible. this is why i use the bible to explain the bible.

 

[BibleAnswer]

\

I have-and i have come up with diametrically opposed opinions of what it says than you do. How do we resolve that?

If what you say is true then EVERYONE who approached scripture with an open heart would come up with the same answers. yet we know that is not true. There has to be some final authority on how we gain heaven.

Well thats something we can talk about. Ill have to think about this. Thanks for the reply.

 

[wmscott]

No offense, but you cant get any more FACT then by quoting the bible. This is what i did in two of those thourough posts. And i deemed it responsible to teach an appropriate and accurate interpretation.

I asked you to cite your own source, which you still have not, and then to explain it the way you want to, then we will see what makes the most sense and talk about it.

You still disregard all of my statements with little blurbs of opinion. why shoud it, how can you say, why should i. you this, you that.

boring.

uneventful

i accurately quoted verse, and explained it, just like my name implies, bibleanswer.

Do me a favor and elevate the thought process. Go ahead and counter me, just explain something knowledgably like the background you have implies, not a man who only has his emotion and logical reasoning to counter. I would never trust MY MIND to explain anything in the bible. this is why i use the bible to explain the bible.

I have to tell you in all kindness that you really do ramble a bit; you make accusations with no proof other than your own fallible opinion. You refuse to accept Biblical evidence (which by the way is what you seem centered on) that supports any issue that you do not agree with, and frankly some of your posts do not seem very lucid. As a suggestion to aid you while you are here, if you make an allegation, accusation, or statement, you need to cite proof, not broad sweeping statements that the Bible tells me so. If you will notice that when posters here are answering you posts, and it needs a citation to back it up, they are provided for you to contemplate. I know that I have posted several comments back to you complete with Scriptural citations and all that is returned is opinions or they are ignored and you move on to post something else. The last issue I have noticed is that you lump a lot of anti-Catholic statements in one post, and some are taken from other threads you have posted and have had answered and proven wrong on. Do not try to reintroduce them again to try to bolster your argument. I have to let you in on a little secret though, if you are here to prostulize you are not going to win over any converts, instead why not just come here and try and learn what Catholics believe without any judgments or thinking that you have to correct us.

 

[Cachonga]

wmscott:

WoW are you for real, I really am having doubts that you are a former Catholic, you are hitting all of the anti-Catholic playbook pages. You have been provided factual information on Sacred Tradition and you still do not comprehend.

It is not OK to bow and pray to an image of someone, I do not do it, I do not know of any Catholic that do it, and if they do they are wrong.

http://www.hol.com/~mikesch/fatima_statue.jpg
In the picture above we notice the late Pope John Paul II (and others) bowing to (actually kneeling before) an image of Our Lady of Fatima. It is no secret that he encouraged prayers and devotions to Mary. I guess maybe you have never seen any Catholic bow and pray to an image before, so I guess now you have to agree that it has happened, and (as you said) it is wrong!

wmscott:

in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Where to begin with this … apparently, only the 24 elders had these golden bowls, not all the saints in heaven. Could you please name these 24 elders? If they are receiving our prayers, I would think you would want to pray to them rather than to a saint who doesn’t offer your prayers before God. Psalm 141 1-2 says, “A Psalm of David. LORD, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee. Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.” (DR) Here we see David praying to God, and asking that his prayer be “set before thee as incense”. Sounds like his prayers were placed in a golden bowl by God.

I don’t understand how your claim that this “argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers” is valid. If God places our prayers in the Golden Bowls, and (it would appear) these golden bowls are in the care of the 24 elders, how can you say they (or the other saints in heaven) hear our prayers?

BTW – what is it in Rev 5:8 that makes you think these elders, who are offering our prayers, are interceding for us? Your argument that “Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.” seems to disregard Psalm 141:1-2 (not to mention John 4:24 “God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.”), so it’s not mental, but spiritual.

I think you are making the same mistake I have encountered once before, and that is that you are confusing inviting angels and saints to join us in praising God with asking angels and saints to intercede on our behalf before God. There is a difference between “Hey, wmscott! Let’s go to Church and praise God!” and “Hey, wmscott! While you’re at Church, would you please pray for me to God?” I do not doubt that those in Heaven pray for us here on earth, but I believe they pray for us in the same way we would pray for believers in another country.

The links you provided do not give any information that I have not already encountered and answered, so there’s no point in adding to it.

PJM:

Catholic Church is 2.000 years old and still One Church, One Faith, One set of Moral beliefs, One Baptism, One set of doctrine and dogma, and 22 brances.

Protestants with independent minds, wills, self interpretation is about 400 years old, and now proudly has in EXCESS OF 30,000 [that is at least 1,978 MORE denominations], each doing, each believing, each practicing what they choose, and if they can find no common ground simply start another brand of “the church.” Can that be what God wants and envisioned when He founded His Catholic Church

Have you checked your source for this statement? It’s the World Christian Encyclopedia. Many of these would not be accepted as Christian by Catholics or Protestants (such as Jehova’s Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians, and many others), plus many who do not even pretend to rely on Sola Scriptura. It also includes 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations and 242 Roman Catholic denominations. You claim there is “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”! I will go out on a limb and believe that you would deny that this applies to any of the Orthodox Catholic denominations, but I would like to know which of the 242 Roman Catholic denominations you think is the “One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”. I would suggest that you are misusing this source in a way that is misleading. I would further assert that if you KNOW about this, then you are being dishonest and engaging in deception! For myself, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just believe that you are repeating a bad argument you got from someone else.

<continued…>

 

[Cachonga]

greggy53:

The scriptures were given by God to the Church, and the scriptures tell us that Christ and his Church are one even as a Husband and wife are one. Not the Bible and God, The Church and God. Jesus established his Church and that Church (being one with Christ) decided which writings were scripture and which were not.(387 AD at the Council of Rome). Not the other way around. The Chuch has the authority to interpret scripture you and I as individuals do not. So, when you tell us we are interpreting scripture wrong we answer back that Christ’s Church that he established, gave us the interpretations, and Christ and his Church are one.

I believe there is a misunderstanding of what Sola Scriptura is. It is not a denial of the Church to teach, but the Church (and it’s ministers) is held accountable to the Scriptures. Anyone who thinks that “All I need is the Bible” is extremely ignorant of what the Bible contains. I disagree with your statement that the “Church (being one with Christ) decided which writings were scripture and which were not”. I do believe fallible men, seeking to know God’s mind, were led to recognize and acknowledge which writings God had truly inspired. The Church did not create the Bible, they did recognize which writings came from God (there is a difference).

greggy53:

The early Church was founded on Jesus Christ crucified, and risen from the dead. Not from Old testament scripture. Certainly old Testament scripture was fulfilled by Christ, but the Church both then and now is based on our Lords crucifixion and resurrection. Better read that bible of yours some more my “back-slid” friend.

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion on Scriptures. Of course the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, but He (and the Apostles) used the Old Testament scriptures to PROVE His claims were true.

BibleAnswer – just a couple quick questions. Do you belong to a Church? Are you under the authority of a pastor?

greggy53:

What percentage of the worlds population could actually copy the scriptures? I have read that in the 1st century less than 1 % of the world could read and write in Greek.

Could you please give your source for this information?

greggy53:

You are not going to convince anyone here that your personal interpretation of the Bible is correct in the face of the authority of God’s Church, and the consistent teaching of that Church for 2000 years.

I would dispute the claim that the Church has had consistent teaching for 2000 years. For example, the assumption of Mary was not made dogma until the middle of the 20th century, and the earliest written account of this is from a spurious document from the middle of the 2nd century.

estesbob:

If there was only one Protestant denomination you would have a point. In fact there are thousands of them all based on the same Scripture, all praying to same God and all asking the same Spirit for guidance but coming up with profound differences on what it takes to gain heaven… How can this be?

Please look at my response to PJM above.

BibleAnswer:

you also wont read the scripture in psalms saying that only by reading reading reading reading reading, the same passage the same passage the same verse, comparing the same verse to a nother similar verse, will you maybe begin to discern.

Could you please give the verse you are referring to?

 

[greggy53]

In truth though you have this backwards, there are quite a few quotes teaching us that God spoke in such a way lest people HEAR AND BELIEVE AND BE BAPTISED IN THE SPIRIT AND BE SAVED…

What you are saying here is that there are people that God did not, and does not want to hear the truth because he does not want them to be saved??? I can’t believe that any Christian of any denomination could believe such a thing! Christ died for all of mankind!! “Blessed is he who takes away the sins of the world.” He wants all of us,*** the entire world ***to turn to him for salvation. This is repeated time and time again in the New Testament. Surely you have read this. It is Gods will that none should perish, but all inheret eternal life. You are reading, but you are somehow missing out on one of the most esential truths about who our Lord is. Get help, talk to a minister about it.

 

[greggy53]

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion on Scriptures. Of course the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, but He (and the Apostles) used the Old Testament scriptures to PROVE His claims were true.

You are the one that said that the early Church was founded on the Old Testament…Remember?

I would dispute the claim that the Church has had consistent teaching for 2000 years. For example, the assumption of Mary was not made dogma until the middle of the 20th century, and the earliest written account of this is from a spurious document from the middle of the 2nd century…

The Church spoke infallibly about the assumption of Mary in the 19th century, but it had been a teaching of the Church for hundreds of years.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Also, the bible is not just A BOOK.

It is Gods Word. It is all that He left us. Nothing else. It began with Moses,

Ex 24:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them."

It is hard to argue this if you don’t read. However this scripture is pointing to the fact that God had already written EVERYTHING already. His PLAN. God does not wing it, He has a plan, and a purpose. This was the moment, as God had already known, when the children of Israel were now a nation, having just fled Egypt and the 430 years of bondage, that now they were free, and a multitude; By the estimates in 1 Chronicles about 2.5 million Jews. A nation promised sense the time of the covenant with Abraham. So this is the moment when His Word became profitable by DOCUMENTATION for the rest of us. For the children of Israel, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Adam, of God. This does not just apply to the 10 commandments. As We learn from the bible, His Word is the LAW AND COMMANDMENTS. All of it, every word in the Bible, is from God. Everything He says, is meant for use and guidance. And you wont understand this by reading the bible as a story.

[2Tim 3:14] But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them.
[2Tim 3:15] and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to **make you wise for salvation **through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

My point, Scripture Makes YOU WISE. That is not conceit or misunderstanding. If you have faith, then believe the Word is true. Study study study read read read. YOURSELF.

[2Tim 3:16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

The bible is not written of MEN. God used prophets, such as Moses, and Joshua the son of Nun, to further HIS PLAN. Realize, there is a timeline, a plan, in the beginning there was the Heaven and Earth, and in the end Judgment Day. We all know this. God doesn’t give everything all at once. Its a select few men who truly believed, who were prophets, and they lived hundreds of years apart, such as Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to David. David To Peter. Its faith that you believe all of this fits together and that God did it Correct the first time. And believe in the Scripture, because it IS PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for reproof, correction, and instruction. We always learn new things from the bible, it is so deep. A person can always be corrected. Most of us need to be corrected in some way or another. The bible does that. You trust what you find in it only.

The whole bible is His Word. The bible began in Moses’ generation. Moses wrote and probably finished most of the first 5 bibles of the Old Testament, some portions could easily have been written by Joshua,

Num 27:18 And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.”
Deut 34:9 Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; so the children of Israel heeded him, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Josh 1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, saying:
Josh 1:2 “Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them-the children of Israel.”

Back to where it started…

Ex 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Ex 32:15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written.
Ex 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Again, I offer the Spiritual meaning, for face value, you would read this and say God actually wiped his finger on stone and carved letters, no no no no, God was with Moses, this teaches us that IT WASN’T MEN WHO WROTE THE BIBLE, God emphases this point, No, Moses used his hands to write, BUT God used Moses. God was in control. Not Moses. You might try to debunk that, but there are a few passages telling us, that Moses had ascended Mount Sinai for 40 days. Because Moses was prophesying, God was speaking to him literally, and Moses wrote exactly what God said.

[Ex 24:18] So Moses went into the midst of the cloud and went up into the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

This is not EASILY UNDERSTOOD unless you take your time, and don’t breeze over a verse like a book. Not what the bible is for. Everything derived from this event in July. Three months after the Exodus out of Egypt which was in April , on the fifteenth day, the day after the Passover.

Ex 12:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
Ex 12:2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you.”
Num 33:3 They departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the day after the Passover the children of Israel went out with boldness in the sight of all the Egyptians.

Compare Scripture with Scripture

 

[BibleAnswer]

Okay, this is where i am coming from, i quoted many verses, and I offered some insight, this was for a conversation that happened yesterday, but still, this is my method. Now what do you think. can you please give you thoughts on each verse such as i did, below my statements. that is how we can begin to have a conversation. Nothing opinion. Just some good ol scripture and debat. Any problems with that?

 

[NHInsider]

I would also point out that nobody asked Jesus what he was referring to every time He said “It is written…” The Old Testament canon was set and in place before Jesus was born, and this is what the early Church was founded on and used until the New Testament was completed (and recognized).

BTW - I believe the Old Testament is just as valid today as it was when Jesus said, “It is written…”

Funny you should mention that, since the Catholic Church recognizes as Scripture the whole of the Old Testament canon that Jesus and the Apostles knew and taught from - as compared with the shortened version proclaimed by our separated brethren.