Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[wmscott]

http://www.hol.com/~mikesch/fatima_statue.jpg
In the picture above we notice the late Pope John Paul II (and others) bowing to (actually kneeling before) an image of Our Lady of Fatima. It is no secret that he encouraged prayers and devotions to Mary. I guess maybe you have never seen any Catholic bow and pray to an image before, so I guess now you have to agree that it has happened, and (as you said) it is wrong!

Where to begin with this … apparently, only the 24 elders had these golden bowls, not all the saints in heaven. Could you please name these 24 elders? If they are receiving our prayers, I would think you would want to pray to them rather than to a saint who doesn’t offer your prayers before God. Psalm 141 1-2 says, “A Psalm of David. LORD, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee. Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.” (DR) Here we see David praying to God, and asking that his prayer be “set before thee as incense”. Sounds like his prayers were placed in a golden bowl by God.

I don’t understand how your claim that this “argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers” is valid. If God places our prayers in the Golden Bowls, and (it would appear) these golden bowls are in the care of the 24 elders, how can you say they (or the other saints in heaven) hear our prayers?

BTW – what is it in Rev 5:8 that makes you think these elders, who are offering our prayers, are interceding for us? Your argument that “Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.” seems to disregard Psalm 141:1-2 (not to mention John 4:24 “God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.”), so it’s not mental, but spiritual.

I think you are making the same mistake I have encountered once before, and that is that you are confusing inviting angels and saints to join us in praising God with asking angels and saints to intercede on our behalf before God. There is a difference between “Hey, wmscott! Let’s go to Church and praise God!” and “Hey, wmscott! While you’re at Church, would you please pray for me to God?” I do not doubt that those in Heaven pray for us here on earth, but I believe they pray for us in the same way we would pray for believers in another country.

The links you provided do not give any information that I have not already encountered and answered, so there’s no point in adding to it.

Have you checked your source for this statement? It’s the World Christian Encyclopedia. Many of these would not be accepted as Christian by Catholics or Protestants (such as Jehova’s Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians, and many others), plus many who do not even pretend to rely on Sola Scriptura. It also includes 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations and 242 Roman Catholic denominations. You claim there is “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”! I will go out on a limb and believe that you would deny that this applies to any of the Orthodox Catholic denominations, but I would like to know which of the 242 Roman Catholic denominations you think is the “One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”. I would suggest that you are misusing this source in a way that is misleading. I would further assert that if you KNOW about this, then you are being dishonest and engaging in deception! For myself, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just believe that you are repeating a bad argument you got from someone else.

<continued…>

You know what; I find your view of the Catholic Church and the Pope to be offensive and downright insulting. He is not bowing and worshiping a statue, he is kneeling in prayer. I kneel in prayer also; there is a Crucifix, statues of the Blessed Mother and of St Joseph in my Church. I am not bowing to a statue and worshiping that statue. Have you ever knelt in prayer? What was in front of you? The back of someone’s head in the church, your dresser, your bed, or a wall? Or was it the Bible that was in front of you? Are your worshiping a book? What about a sick child or relative of yours? Did you ever kneel in prayer over them? Do you see how pathetic your assertions are? Get real. This is the same old tired, lame, ant-Catholic cut and paste response from the anti-Catholic play book, and could you be any more unoriginal? Nevertheless, I would expect this from someone like you. As I stated before I do not believe you ever was a Catholic, if you were, you were uneducated, uninformed, and misguided. You have been provided with citations from Sacred Scripture, in context, all of which stood the test of time for 2000+ years because the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ Himself, has guided and protected the Catholic Church from heretics, error, ignorance, and the Gates of Hell. There is nothing on this earth that can be cited to you which shows the legitimacy of Christ’s One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church that will please you unless it fits your own fallible personal interpretation or agenda. I am really done with you, so as in Matthew 10:14 “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.” So I shake the dust of you from my feet.

 

[greggy53]

You know what; I find your view of the Catholic Church and the Pope to be offensive and downright insulting. He is not bowing and worshiping a statue, he is kneeling in prayer. I kneel in prayer also; there is a Crucifix, statues of the Blessed Mother and of St Joseph in my Church. I am not bowing to a statue and worshiping that statue. Have you ever knelt in prayer? What was in front of you? The back of someone’s head in the church, your dresser, your bed, or a wall? Or was it the Bible that was in front of you? Are your worshiping a book? What about a sick child or relative of yours? Did you ever kneel in prayer over them? Do you see how pathetic your assertions are? Get real. This is the same old tired, lame, ant-Catholic cut and paste response from the anti-Catholic play book, and could you be any more unoriginal? Nevertheless, I would expect this from someone like you. As I stated before I do not believe you ever was a Catholic, if you were, you were uneducated, uninformed, and misguided. You have been provided with citations from Sacred Scripture, in context, all of which stood the test of time for 2000+ years because the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ Himself, has guided and protected the Catholic Church from heretics, error, ignorance, and the Gates of Hell. There is nothing on this earth that can be cited to you which shows the legitimacy of Christ’s One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church that will please you unless it fits your own fallible personal interpretation or agenda. I am really done with you, so as in Matthew 10:14 “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.” So I shake the dust of you from my feet.

Yes I often wonder if these same people who accuse us of idolatry have a picture or painting of Jesus in their homes and churches. I’ll bet they do and I’ll bet they even look at them when they pray too.

 

[estesbob]

Okay, this is where i am coming from, i quoted many verses, and I offered some insight, this was for a conversation that happened yesterday, but still, this is my method. Now what do you think. can you please give you thoughts on each verse such as i did, below my statements. that is how we can begin to have a conversation. Nothing opinion. Just some good ol scripture and debat. Any problems with that?

No- have no authority whatsoever to interpet Scripture for you.

 

[Cachonga]

greggy53:

The Church spoke infallibly about the assumption of Mary in the 19th century, but it had been a teaching of the Church for hundreds of years

Still, this has not been a “constant teaching for 2000 years”, or do you have some credible documentation prior to the spurious work from the middle of the 2nd century? (BTW – identifying the woman of Rev 12:1 as Mary does not prove her bodily assumption, nor do appeals to human logic like “Well, we know Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily into heaven, and Mary is more worthy than they are”.)

NHInsider:

Funny you should mention that, since the Catholic Church recognizes as Scripture the whole of the Old Testament canon that Jesus and the Apostles knew and taught from - as compared with the shortened version proclaimed by our separated brethren.

So how does your “infallible” Church explain the proven historical errors in Judith? Or do you believe the King of Babylon had a palace in the Assyrian capital of Nineveh (not to mention the rebuilding of the Temple about 100 years before it was destroyed, and many other historical errors)? For myself, I will agree with Jerome’s opinion that the Apocrypha (I know, he didn’t use that term, but we understand which writings it applies to, OK?) was suitable for reading and edification, but not to be taken as authoritative in matters of faith.

wmscott:

You know what; I find your view of the Catholic Church and the Pope to be offensive and downright insulting. He is not bowing and worshiping a statue, he is kneeling in prayer. I kneel in prayer also; there is a Crucifix, statues of the Blessed Mother and of St Joseph in my Church. I am not bowing to a statue and worshiping that statue. Have you ever knelt in prayer? What was in front of you? The back of someone’s head in the church, your dresser, your bed, or a wall? Or was it the Bible that was in front of you? Are your worshiping a book? What about a sick child or relative of yours? Did you ever kneel in prayer over them? Do you see how pathetic your assertions are? Get real. This is the same old tired, lame, ant-Catholic cut and paste response from the anti-Catholic play book, and could you be any more unoriginal? Nevertheless, I would expect this from someone like you. As I stated before I do not believe you ever was a Catholic, if you were, you were uneducated, uninformed, and misguided. You have been provided with citations from Sacred Scripture, in context, all of which stood the test of time for 2000+ years because the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ Himself, has guided and protected the Catholic Church from heretics, error, ignorance, and the Gates of Hell. There is nothing on this earth that can be cited to you which shows the legitimacy of Christ’s One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church that will please you unless it fits your own fallible personal interpretation or agenda. I am really done with you, so as in Matthew 10:14 “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.” So I shake the dust of you from my feet.

There is a problem with your argument. When I pray, I address my prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus, regardless of what is in front of me (my Bible, the back of someone’s head, but never a statue!). Even when I pray for someone and kneel over them, my prayer is to the Father in the name of the Jesus. In the picture above, the Pope (and others) are kneeling before a statue, and I’ll bet there were more than a few “Hail Mary’s” being said. How can you think you can kneel before a statue (as depicted above) and pray to anyone other than God and not think it’s idolatry? How is kneeling before a statue and invoking the person it supposedly represents with things like “…Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death” not forbidden by God?

For the record (I have stated this in another thread, but it seems to bear repeating), I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I received 6 of the 7 sacraments by the time I was 30. When I got engaged, my fiancée and I got a special dispensation from the Bishop and did not have to take the 6 month pre-cana classes. She was a widow with 3 kids (youngest was 10), and they had all been baptized in the Church, but that’s as far as their training went. She had been married in the Church before, and her late husband had been buried in the Church. During our 3 month engagement, I trained all 3 of our kids, and they all received their first communion the same day we were married. I had been reading my Bible since I was 17 (usually cover to cover). About 3 years after we were married, I started looking for answers to some questions, and found a copy of Vatican II documents in the public library. It was while reading through this that God opened my eyes to His truth, and He delivered me out of Catholicism shortly after that.

greggy53:

Yes I often wonder if these same people who accuse us of idolatry have a picture or painting of Jesus in their homes and churches. I’ll bet they do and I’ll bet they even look at them when they pray too.

I agree that it isn’t appropriate. I do not have any pictures of Jesus in my home, nor have I seen any in my Church.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Could you please give the verse you are referring to?

Cochonga,
It seems you are more aware of what the scripture is teaching us, more so than a lot of others. We are both learning my friend, and we only feel it right that we follow what has been taught to us in the bible. Perhaps you have not made this connection yet. However the bible speaks of a great falling away in the church, in his temple. This would represent the Holy Spirit leaving the church, which is why so many in the church can not discern this truth and understand it. You must come out of the church and listen to only the bible. I think Cochonga can vouch for the authority of the bible.

I wrote this and copied it, to much to retype. what you think, feedback?

The verse that proves we need to compare scripture with scripture.

[Is 28:10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

Verses that prove, the scripture is the only Authority, the Ultimate Authority.
[Psalm 119:40-48] Behold, I long for Your precepts; Revive me in Your righteousness. Let Your mercies come also to me, O LORD- Your salvation according to Your word. So shall I have an answer to him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word. And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I have hoped in Your ordinances. So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty For I seek Your precepts. I will speak of Your testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in Your commandments, Which I love. My hands also I will lift up to Your commandments, which I love, and I will meditate on Your statutes.

[Psalm 119:99-104] I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts. I have restrained my feet from every evil way, that I may keep Your word. I have not departed from Your judgments, for You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

[Psalm 119 :117-120] Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes, For their deceit is falsehood. You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross; Therefore I love Your testimonies. My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments.

[Acts 17:11] These were more fair minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

[1 Ptr 2:2] As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby.

[2Tim 2:15] Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[2Tim 3:14-17] But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For a person that reads the bible with the eye for understanding, and not just topical reading without understanding, then this is what God commands me to do.
[1Tim 4:6-7] If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives fables, and exercise yourself rather to godliness

[2 Tim 4:2] Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

[2Tim 4:5] But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

However, this is the true reality, it is very sad, and consequently people are blinded from the truth.
[2Tim 3:1] But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come,

[2Tim 3:5] Having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

[2Tim 3:7] Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[2Tim 4:3-4] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Now that we have context, lets have a meaningful conversation about this. You say church completes the scripture, I say the scripture is already complete. This is why i study the bible, to learn information like this, have you worked this out for yourself.

You can outright disregard this, or you can voice your understanding for us to comment on. and let the truth prevail.

 

[Cachonga]

BibleAnswer:

It seems you are more aware of what the scripture is teaching us, more so than a lot of others. We are both learning my friend, and we only feel it right that we follow what has been taught to us in the bible. Perhaps you have not made this connection yet. However the bible speaks of a great falling away in the church, in his temple. This would represent the Holy Spirit leaving the church, which is why so many in the church can not discern this truth and understand it. You must come out of the church and listen to only the bible. I think Cochonga can vouch for the authority of the bible.

Do you follow Harold Camping? You sound like someone who might. I’m geussing you’re not in a Church, nor are you under the authority of any Pastor. If this is true (and I hope it isn’t), you need to repent of this heresy, find a good, Bible-believing Church, and submit to the authority of a Pastor. BTW - submitting to a Pastor does NOT mean you accept everything he says without question! Be like the Bereans and search the Scriptures to be sure what is being taught is correct!

 

[BibleAnswer]

Do you follow Harold Camping? You sound like someone who might. I’m geussing you’re not in a Church, nor are you under the authority of any Pastor. If this is true (and I hope it isn’t), you need to repent of this heresy, find a good, Bible-believing Church, and submit to the authority of a Pastor. BTW - submitting to a Pastor does NOT mean you accept everything he says without question! Be like the Bereans and search the Scriptures to be sure what is being taught is correct!

Ah, I see, well, let me just pose this question of logic.

Why would i need a bible fearing pastur or anybody else, to teach me what the bible teaches me alone. Why do i need somebody to guide me, when the bible is the guidebook. Have more faith in the ability God gave you, to be your own spiritual conselor and your own teacher. Otherwise you risk the possibility of being taught by someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about, and thus teach all together wrong doctrine.

I sound like a person who is capable in mind body and soul to read his own bible. If you need a pastur to guide you, to tell you what something means, then by all means.

But who do you think taught that pasture, and that pasture before. What makes them spiritualy superior to you.

Jesus Christ was the High Priest, yet never used this fact for His own esteem. He was here to teach and to tell the truth, He had no interest in heirarchy to a church establishment or a brick and mortar church.

It is a never ending forever spiritual church that matters. that is why we are

soujourners in this land during our pilgrimage on the earth. we are strangers,

heaven is the goal and our true home.

we are all ministers unto Him just by our common belief in Him. but your idea that somebody needs to tell you what the bible says is wrong. You have that ability yourself.

This applies to every singel church ever on the face of earth. they all have hierarchal structures where somebody has more spiritual power or authority over the other. Peter never ever mentioned the fact that he was THE ROCK that he HAD THE KEYS. PETER AND PAUL AND THE REST walked from city to city spreading the word. as was there commision.

when a problem did arise, it was the Helenestic jews that were loudest compared to the reformed Jews.

Disention already in the church.

the story is this.

helenistic Jews, who are Zelous for the law of Moses, and believe all the same, complained that their wives were not fairly portioned an alotment. Peter and the disciples said, this is not a matter for us, chose for yourselves 12 deacons and figure the matter out.

this is because he is not interested in any church function that is devised by the minds of men. his functin was to walk city to city, from church to church and preach. he never said i am the rock listen to me, he reasoned out of the bible.

The only thing that matters is spiritual salvation. Jesus was beat and murdered and you didn’t see Him say ouch, no i decide to not be beat and murdered. No it happened to save us by His grace, it happened because it was already written. It happened because He wasn’t concerned with his health or his comfort, He was concerned with saving all of us, spiritual salvation.

yet still, the functions that churches provide are all works. Works will not save anybody. And trying to reason why a baptism is important, or sacrament, doesn’t change the fact that it is still a work. just like faith is a work. if even faith is a work then what are WE to do. NOTHING. just read the bible by yourself, and share with people who want to listen.

So many dont understand actually how simple our jobs as christians really are…

 

[BibleAnswer]

Yes I often wonder if these same people who accuse us of idolatry have a picture or painting of Jesus in their homes and churches. I’ll bet they do and I’ll bet they even look at them when they pray too.

Hi, I like this forum, it is engaging.

to pipe in, No, i most certianly have no crucifixes, no pictures of anything in heaven, below earth or any principality. It is idolatry.

The bible is different. The bible is Gods Word, given to us by God.

Ill explain why idolatry is idolatry. Because any image concieved, including the actual cross that we all know to be familiar with, is a man made idea of something spiritual. A cross is not spiritual, it is wood and the shape of a t. the star of david, was a banner Davids house used during His reign as King, It has no spiritual significance and can not get you saved. Pictures depicting the crucifixtion or jesus ministering are all man made interpretations of what God should look like. If there was meant to be an image to depict something heavently, God would have included it in the bible. People were adequete back then to draw, It was forbidden because people would begin to worship the image of jesus, even though they believed they were praying and worshiping the actual jesus, NO it doesn’t work that way. We are not to have any image. it is by faith alone that we worship.

 

[estesbob]

Ah, I see, well, let me just pose this question of logic.

Why would i need a bible fearing pastur or anybody else, to teach me what the bible teaches me alone. Why do i need somebody to guide me, when the bible is the guidebook. Have more faith in the ability God gave you, to be your own spiritual conselor and your own teacher. Otherwise you risk the possibility of being taught by someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about, and thus teach all together wrong doctrine.

means.
So many dont understand actually how simple our jobs as christians really are…

You and Caconga have both rejected the Church but have differing interpretations of what Scripture says-how do we recolve that?

 

[estesbob]

Hi, I like this forum, it is engaging.

to pipe in, No, i most certianly have no crucifixes, no pictures of anything in heaven, below earth or any principality. It is idolatry.

The bible is different. The bible is Gods Word, given to us by God.

Ill explain why idolatry is idolatry. Because any image concieved, including the actual cross that we all know to be familiar with, is a man made idea of something spiritual. A cross is not spiritual, it is wood and the shape of a t. the star of david, was a banner Davids house used during His reign as King, It has no spiritual significance and can not get you saved. Pictures depicting the crucifixtion or jesus ministering are all man made interpretations of what God should look like. If there was meant to be an image to depict something heavently, God would have included it in the bible. People were adequete back then to draw, It was forbidden because people would begin to worship the image of jesus, even though they believed they were praying and worshiping the actual jesus, NO it doesn’t work that way. We are not to have any image. it is by faith alone that we worship.

Does your Bible have any pictures in it?

BTW-you are preaching to the choir-we all agree that idolatry is wrong. thankfully none of us are practicing it or promoting it.

 

[BibleAnswer]

You and Caconga have both rejected the Church but have differing interpretations of what Scripture says-how do we recolve that?

Great example.

the answer is disheatening my friend, but you asked me.

Because Caconga belongs to a church. True it is not a Catholic church, yet it is a church. When a church teaches its pasturs, it teaches scripture to benefit the church, it teaches church understood principals and doctrine first. From chuch A-Z. thus the truth will alwasy be taught under these variables.

The bible teaches of a great falling away in the book of daniel and revelations. This falling away is indicating that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the church. all churches.

If you were to understand the the Holy spirit has left the sanctuary of the church, then you would understand that anybody in the church is not under the guidance of the holy spirit. NOT in that church at least. AT home, on your own though, is your best bet then.

We all believe in Satan. we have to if we believe in God.

And we all see stories of priests and pasturs and churches doing this horrible things. It is very seldom and few, i know i know. this is no indication. however it does prove that there are Wheat and Tares.

In Gods church there is only Wheat.

His spiritual church is only Wheat, that is only true believers.

Right now, people in church, are SERVING CHURCH, not God. this is evident by all the backwards interpretations.

While i am serving the Spiritual church. The one that leads to salvation. This is why, because of the great falling away, that is, the Holy spirit leaving the church, leaving an opening for Satan. who currently rules in church. all church.

Remember Satan comes as an angel of light, his emmesaries as teachers of rightouesness.

thats why the thousands of churches have thousands of differnet opinions.

Or is the church an authority that binds satan. haha, no, only Christ can do that. The church is brick and mortar,. But the spiritual church, Satan has no reighn in, seeing as it is not of this earth.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Does your Bible have any pictures in it?

BTW-you are preaching to the choir-we all agree that idolatry is wrong. thankfully none of us are practicing it or promoting it.

my bible most certainly does not have any pictures of anything. This would make me a hypocryte.

 

[greggy53]

Still, this has not been a “constant teaching for 2000 years”, or do you have some credible documentation prior to the spurious work from the middle of the 2nd century? (BTW – identifying the woman of Rev 12:1 as Mary does not prove her bodily assumption, nor do appeals to human logic like “Well, we know Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily into heaven, and Mary is more worthy than they are”.)

Well the 2nd century puts the earliest mention of the assumption from 100 to 200 AD. That’s pretty darn close to 2000 years ago. By saying “spurious” you are saying that the documents of the early Christian church are not genuine? Where then are the “real” documents from the early Church? Surely the “real Bible Christians” of the 2nd century wrote letters and such backing your point of view??..Where were the "real Bible chistians? what were they writing about?? .Where is your evidence from the 2nd 3rd, 4th centuries etc??? You don’t have any do you?? I never said that Mary’s mention in The Apocalypse of St John proved her assumption. This is a teaching of the Church and has been. I don’t need scriptural proof for it. The Church has proclaimed it so for a very long time, and the Church and Christ are One. Whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church on earth has declared it, and so it is in Heaven. Jesus said it and it’s in your Bible too!
How long has your particular brand of Christianity been around? 100 or maybe 150 years tops?. You may ridicule the Church and our history, but at least we have one. You worship a Bible that magically fell out of the sky and hit Martin Luther on the head in the 16th century, and you have the nerve to tell us our history isn’t genuine??

 

[Cachonga]

BibleAnswer, since you seem to understand so much, could you please tell me why Paul addressed so many of his letters to Churches (or to people like Timothy, with instructions on how to run the Church)? You referred to the appointment of Deacons, but you missed why this was done. Acts 6:4 says, “But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.” Heb 10:24-25 says, “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” How do you assemble together with other believers? Finally, 1 Peter 4:17 says, “For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?” If judgment began while Peter was still alive, why does God address the 7 Churches in Rev (and not warn anyone that the Holy Spirit has left the Churches)?

greggy53:

Well the 2nd century puts the earliest mention of the assumption from 100 to 200 AD. That’s pretty darn close to 2000 years ago. By saying “spurious” you are saying that the documents of the early Christian church are not genuine? Where then are the “real” documents from the early Church? Surely the “real Bible Christians” of the 2nd century wrote letters and such backing your point of view??..Where were the "real Bible chistians? what were they writing about?? .Where is your evidence from the 2nd 3rd, 4th centuries etc??? You don’t have any do you?? I never said that Mary’s mention in The Apocalypse of St John proved her assumption. This is a teaching of the Church and has been. I don’t need scriptural proof for it. The Church has proclaimed it so for a very long time, and the Church and Christ are One. Whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church on earth has declared it, and so it is in Heaven. Jesus said it and it’s in your Bible too!
How long has your particular brand of Christianity been around? 100 or maybe 150 years tops?. You may ridicule the Church and our history, but at least we have one. You worship a Bible that magically fell out of the sky and hit Martin Luther on the head in the 16th century, and you have the nerve to tell us our history isn’t genuine??

So now we’re talking “consistent teaching for pretty close to 2000 years”? By spurious, I’m referring to the Protevangelium of James. Even Catholic scholars agree this was not written by James.

I think your statement, “I don’t need scriptural proof for it.” is very telling. You seem to be using the “binding and loosing” to imply that “If the Church says something is true, then God makes it true.” (hope I’m wrong on that).

I do not worship the Bible, and I do not believe it “magically” fell out of heaven etc, etc… If I gave that impression, I apologize.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes I often wonder if these same people who accuse us of idolatry have a picture or painting of Jesus in their homes and churches. I’ll bet they do and I’ll bet they even look at them when they pray too.

These Ex-Catholics are not worth our time. Their arguments are just as the claimed that the world is 6,000 yrs old… and think man lived with Dinosaurs…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Great example.

the answer is disheatening my friend, but you asked me.

Because Caconga belongs to a church. True it is not a Catholic church, yet it is a church. When a church teaches its pasturs, it teaches scripture to benefit the church, it teaches church understood principals and doctrine first. From chuch A-Z. thus the truth will alwasy be taught under these variables.

The bible teaches of a great falling away in the book of daniel and revelations. This falling away is indicating that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the church. all churches.

So you do not believe Jesus then when he said, “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” Second, where do you get the foolish assertion, that the Holy Spirit will abandon the Church?

If you were to understand the the Holy spirit has left the sanctuary of the church, then you would understand that anybody in the church is not under the guidance of the holy spirit. NOT in that church at least. AT home, on your own though, is your best bet then.

Sounds like you have a problem with Church authority. You might as well throw away that Bible of yours, because that Bible that contains all 73 Books (66 Books for your Bible) were put together by the Catholic Church.

We all believe in Satan. we have to if we believe in God.

And we all see stories of priests and pasturs and churches doing this horrible things. It is very seldom and few, i know i know. this is no indication. however it does prove that there are Wheat and Tares.

In Gods church there is only Wheat.

His spiritual church is only Wheat, that is only true believers.

Right now, people in church, are SERVING CHURCH, not God. this is evident by all the backwards interpretations.

Show me in the Bible that the Church is apart from the Christ? That type of belief is heresy. Did not Paul say, “Husband loves your wives, just as Jesus Christ loved his bride, the Church?”

or when Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus ask him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

You Protestants have a bad habit of separating the Church and Jesus.

While i am serving the Spiritual church. The one that leads to salvation. This is why, because of the great falling away, that is, the Holy spirit leaving the church, leaving an opening for Satan. who currently rules in church. all church.

Remember Satan comes as an angel of light, his emmesaries as teachers of rightouesness.

thats why the thousands of churches have thousands of differnet opinions.

Or is the church an authority that binds satan. haha, no, only Christ can do that. The church is brick and mortar,. But the spiritual church, Satan has no reighn in, seeing as it is not of this earth.

The Church is the Body of Christ.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just to prove my point, here is the common beliefs of Church and Her relationship with Jesus Christ.

**The Church is communion with Jesus

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

See full context through 798 here.
**

 

[Mannyfit75]

**
“One Body”

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224

“Christ is the Head of this Body”

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, “until Christ be formed” in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter."233**

 

[Mannyfit75]

**
The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."242

III. THE CHURCH IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

797 "What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church."243 "To this Spirit of Christ, as an invisible principle, is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the body are joined one with the other and with their exalted head; for the whole Spirit of Christ is in the head, the whole Spirit is in the body, and the whole Spirit is in each of the members."244 The Holy Spirit makes the Church “the temple of the living God”:245

Indeed, it is to the Church herself that the “Gift of God” has been entrusted. . . . In it is in her that communion with Christ has been deposited, that is to say: the Holy Spirit, the pledge of incorruptibility, the strengthening of our faith and the ladder of our ascent to God. . . . For where the Church is, there also is God’s Spirit; where God’s Spirit is, there is the Church and every grace.246

798 The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body."247 He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity:248 by God’s Word “which is able to build you up”;249 by Baptism, through which he forms Christ’s Body;250 by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ’s members; by “the grace of the apostles, which holds first place among his gifts”;251 by the virtues, which make us act according to what is good; finally, by the many special graces (called “charisms”), by which he makes the faithful "fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church."252**

 

[BibleAnswer]

BibleAnswer, since you seem to understand so much, could you please tell me why Paul addressed so many of his letters to Churches (or to people like Timothy, with instructions on how to run the Church)? You referred to the appointment of Deacons, but you missed why this was done. Acts 6:4 says, “But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.” Heb 10:24-25 says, “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” How do you assemble together with other believers? Finally, 1 Peter 4:17 says, “For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?” If judgment began while Peter was still alive, why does God address the 7 Churches in Rev (and not warn anyone that the Holy Spirit has left the Churches)?

Acts 6:4 says, "But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word
This is why the 12 Deacons were assembled. Because the petty bickering and the problems that the people had in the congregation, took away from the ultimate point which was to pray and preach for spiritual salvation. They could not be bothered with anything else.

Heb 10:24-25 says, “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: **Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves **together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”

This verse is severly misinterpreted. No where does this say anything about a congregation or a church. The assembly of ONE SELF is you and the bible. If you forsake the assembly of yourself then you will not be prepared for the end, judgment, because no church wants to preach judgment like its real or going to happen. Already this is a wrong path.

1 Peter 4:17 says, “For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

this is spread all throught the bible. There are more that tell us the established temple or in otherwords church, will have the most sever punishment because they are teaching unsound doctrine. Gods judgment begins at His house as we learn in the parable of the wheat and tares.

the wheat are the true believers, the tares are those who believe they are saved yet are not. Nobody can discern who is who except the LORD who can read any heart. Gods true church will not have any tares in it, that is, people that spread misinformation, wether by mistake or on purpose for there own greed, by serving MAMMON. The tares will have it the worst because they had the bible, Gods word, and chose to disobey his commands. This is why they are under gods wrath and why it starts at the church.

that is why i said any church, all churches from A-Z will be under gods judgment first, because it is in a church where Satan is now seated, the tares. All churches. Everysingle one of them.

the only remaining church where satan does not rule, would be the spiritual church, the wheat.

These are good questions.