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LionHeart777
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“they” are Protestants (I was one), because everyone else (the Apostolic Churches) recognizes these as Canonical.
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LionHeart777
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my quote above;
I believe i got this chronology from user Randy Carson, I will see if I can track it down from him.
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LionHeart777
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How can you say (if I understand you correctly) that there are no physical Churches when Scripture and Church history prove otherwise? I believe that the Church is BOTH physical and spiritual-someone correct me if I’m contradicting Catholic teaching
you say that but offer no evidence other than
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BibleAnswer
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Right, though i showed you from sripture, that church is corrupt, and that Satan now rules in any church, any denomination. It isn’t just the Catholic church that is immune to the authority of Satan.
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LionHeart777
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which post, if you don’t mind?
I’ll just say in passing that historically, the Catholics and heretics (gnocstics, etc.) both used the Scripture to defend their view. The Catholics had the added advantage of rolling out the lists of successors to the Apostles. Tradition, to quote (probably loosely) Jimmy Akin in his debate w/ James White on the Bible Answer Man, is a grid we can use to interpret Scripture.
case in point: I used to reject baptismal regeneration as a Protestant…until I became aware of the teaching of the Early Church Fathers (Jimmy pointed out this unanimous consent of the Fathers on this subject in the above debate.)
I’ll just say in passing that historically, the Catholics and heretics (gnocstics, etc.) both used the Scripture to defend their view. The Catholics had the added advantage of rolling out the lists of successors to the Apostles. Tradition, to quote (probably loosely) Jimmy Akin in his debate w/ James White on the Bible Answer Man, is a grid we can use to interpret Scripture.
case in point: I used to reject baptismal regeneration as a Protestant…until I became aware of the teaching of the Early Church Fathers (Jimmy pointed out this unanimous consent of the Fathers on this subject in the above debate.)
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Mannyfit75
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By proclaiming this, then you do not believe Jesus own words promise to St. Peter, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?” Talk about perverting the Word of God. You just defame the Word who dwelt amongst us, Jesus Christ. This is purely, Anti-Catholic bigotry.
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dpgreen
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781 + 242 = 1023 Catholic denominations? What hat did you pull that one out of? This sounds like desperate “apologetics” to me.
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greggy53
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Yes, consistantly teaching the same truths for 2000 years…Again, where is your 2nd century evidence to support your belief? Surely, The real Christians of that time period were not silent?.
I’m not implying anything. It’s very plainly written:“Whatsoever you bind on earth…”
Don’t apologize to me, just think about what you are saying about God’s Church.
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greggy53
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How do you know that?
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CoachSTL
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Ginger,**what’s your interpretation of **
*Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. This is our mission in life, to witness the Gospel of Christ. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The Holy Spirit is promised to all believers, not just the Apostles passed down from “pope” to “pope”, but to all. It is how Jesus is “with us always, to the very end of the age.”
ACTS 10:44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
*Luke 14:6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
The Pharisees were following extra-biblical teachings of the Law. Jesus used the Holy Scriptures to correct them in Matthew 12. Jesus didn’t change the law, he pointed out the Pharisees had added to it, and clarified what the law actually said using the Holy Scriptures.
Since they all knew what the Law said, and since they all knew the added restrictions in extra-biblical works have no authority over the Law (Torah), no one could argue with Jesus.
*Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
My interpretation is this:
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on (myself) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
*1 John 4:6?
Instead of taking one verse and drawing your conclusion you should read the whole passage to gain understanding.
1Dear friends, **do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. **This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and **have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater **than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Thank you for asking.
I can tell that you are really trying to follow Christ. But I have to point out that you invalidate yourself with your points made.
First, no person can personally interpret Sciptures. Paul warns us against this. He constantly makes the point that valid teachers/preachers must be “sent” by the Church. Second, you make it very clear that you make personal interpretations.
"Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. My interpretation is this: ]“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on (myself) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
With all due respect, why should I beleive you?, Who sent you as an annointed teacher of the Scriptures?
Not one Protestant or Evangelical teacher/preacher/pastor has been sent by Christ through His Sacred Tradition of appointing His teachers. Every Catholic priest has been so through the succession of Jesus’ methods. This is why the Catholic Church can be the only true interpreter and authoritive teacher of Scriptures.
If you can show me that you have been sent in the manner that Jesus established, than I will have to consider your point of view as valid Christian Teaching.
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wmscott
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He got his numbers from the World Christian Encyclopedia, however he has grossly misinterpreted what is it saying. I guess this is a pattern in the interprtation department. Fact is the Catholic Church is “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic” and is droken down into “Rites”. A Rite, such as the Eastern Church, Western Church is a division or differentiation of churches according to liturgy. The Catholic Church is composed of 23 individual Catholic Churches, in union with the Pope (One). The Latin branch is by far the largest, and is so large, that most people are not aware of the other 22. Here is a listing of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches. What he is doing is lumping the 781 Eastern Orthodox Churches into the mix.
From the World Christian Encyclopedia “From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 “Roman Catholic denominations” (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called “Roman Catholics” by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia’s own definition of “denomination” the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) “denominations” of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different “denomination” from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.”
See the attached for full explanations
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Ginger2
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Can you provide a link to this “anti-Catholic playbook”? It would make life a lot easier if I didn’t have to do all this research, but could simply open an answer book like the Catholics do with the CC and the JW’s with their WTS.
Just a little levity to lighten things up!
Ginger
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LionHeart777
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BibleAnswer,
why do you (at least seem to me to) conclude that since there are tares in the (visible) Church that the tares rule there…or that the evil one who sowed them rules there?
(by the way, I believe the Catholic understanding of the visible Church is that it is The Catholic Church, and I believe there is evidence to back this up.)
Did any one spread misinformation in the Churches that the Apostles were shepherding? (i.e. the ones that the epistles are written to)?
In your opinion, when did the Church of the Apostles stop being under control by God (I’m not conceding that it did)?
Can’t you see that you have twisted that Scripture in Hebrews terribly (about not forsaking the gathering of “ourselves”)??
It is apparent to me that you have warped that to fit your own Theology, your own interpretation of the Bible. If you claim that those who spread misinformation are tares, are you claiming that you, who claim to be wheat, and also all the rest of the wheat, are infallible?
Also, where do you celebrate the Eucharist and with whom?
why do you (at least seem to me to) conclude that since there are tares in the (visible) Church that the tares rule there…or that the evil one who sowed them rules there?
(by the way, I believe the Catholic understanding of the visible Church is that it is The Catholic Church, and I believe there is evidence to back this up.)
Did any one spread misinformation in the Churches that the Apostles were shepherding? (i.e. the ones that the epistles are written to)?
In your opinion, when did the Church of the Apostles stop being under control by God (I’m not conceding that it did)?
Can’t you see that you have twisted that Scripture in Hebrews terribly (about not forsaking the gathering of “ourselves”)??
It is apparent to me that you have warped that to fit your own Theology, your own interpretation of the Bible. If you claim that those who spread misinformation are tares, are you claiming that you, who claim to be wheat, and also all the rest of the wheat, are infallible?
Also, where do you celebrate the Eucharist and with whom?
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Ginger2
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Catholics love to cite this one verse as “proof” only they know can understand and correctly interpret Scriptures:
2 Pe 1:20
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
…but somehow seem to forget there is another verse immediately following that clarifies the meaning:
21
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
2 Peter 1:20-21 is a statement that the Scriptures are the divinely inspired word of God - not simply the thoughts and ideas of men concerning God - but God’s word written down by men as God revealed it to them.
lol I do not claim to be a teacher…James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
You have just made an absolute claim as tho you know the mind of God. That goes against the Word of God and contradicts the Holy Scriptures. Would you like to reconsider?
Ginger
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LionHeart777
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Here is the parable, the KJV is public domain I believe so I like to use it on the net (even though it’s missing the deutero’s and might not be the best translation. Also, an unintended plus is that it’s your preferred Bible as you said.)
"…The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
from: (biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&version=9) (accessed 7/29/09)
Do you believe that the harvest has already come?
"…The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
from: (biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&version=9) (accessed 7/29/09)
Do you believe that the harvest has already come?
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greggy53
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This is how the Douay- Rheims bible explains the passage:
“No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.
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greggy53
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At school as a boy our Sister took the entire class to Mass at a Byzantine rite Catholic Church. We received the Holy Eucharist as did the Sister. Hardly different denominations. They are in complete union with Rome. The church was located around the corner from ours. It’s still there today. St Mary’s Romanian Catholic Church.
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wmscott
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Thanks for the lightening up of thingsCan you provide a link to this “anti-Catholic playbook”? It would make life a lot easier if I didn’t have to do all this research, but could simply open an answer book like the Catholics do with the CC and the JW’s with their WTS.
Just a little levity to lighten things up!
Ginger
I had to open an answer book to get you this info.
A partial lineup includes Chick Publications, Mission to Catholics International, Lumen Productions, Research and Education Foundation, Osterhus Publishing House, Christians United for Reformation (CURE), Harvest House, and Bob Jones University Press. Combined they turn out more anti-Catholic tracts, magazines, and books than ever before—millions of copies each year.
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greggy53
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I have in my possession a King James version of the Bible that does indeed have the so-called “Apocrypha” in it. The Bible was printed in 1876. From what I have read Martin Luther did not remove the Deuterocanonical from the scriptures, but rather separated them, and placed them by themselves calling them the “Apocrypha”. The Deuterocanonical books did not disapear all together from the Protestant Bibles until the end of the 19th century, but they have been a part of the Cannon of the scriptures since the scriptures were gathered together and translated into Latin in the late 4th century.
I copied the following from wikipedia, The written record verifying the presence of the Deuterocanonical books in the “first edition” of the Bible
387 AD Council Of Rome
The “Damasine list”, issued by Pope Damasus I at the council, is as follows:
"It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;
Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.
Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, one to the Corinthians [2 Corinthians is not mentioned], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.
Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.
Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament."
You Protestants who rely so heavily on the Bible don’t realize that you don’t even posses the whole Bible!. You folks miss out on so much.
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Ginger2
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The Douay- Rheims bible is hardly a reliable source, but even if it were, the commentary is not an infallible source, because it is the written opinions of fallible men.
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