Personal interpretation

[Shannon9791]

You have used your own fallible reasoning and your own fallible interpretation of Scripture to reason (fallibly) that the apostle Peter was the first in an unbroken succession of popes. Who told you that these things were true? By who’s authority did they teach?

You see this is where your assumptions that Catholics use fallible reasoning to interpret the Bible. We don’t need the Bible to tell us Peter was the first pope. We can look at history and the ECF’s and read about the primacy of Peter. By who’s authority did the Apostle’s teach? Uhhh, man, what’s that Guy’s name? You know, He had that beard and He mighta been a carpenter and I think He changed water to wine once. Oh yeah, Jesus. Just look in a history book and you’ll find the answers.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
No, I’m not necessarily saying that the earliest Christians were sola Scripturists, but I am suggesting that it was thought to be more “noble” to search the Scriptures daily to see if these things (the preachings they were hearing) were true.

What does that even mean? The Apostles were technically the earliest Christians. This sentence is already proven wrong because of that. The Apostles could not have searched the Scriptures (well, not the New Testament anyway). Anyway, the Fathers did not search the Scriptures daily to see if things were right. They searched them for their own spiritual quest. With that said, I am sure they did check to make make sure it was what was handed down by the Apostles. But it was not for their own good, it was for the good of Christianity. That they may be in Truth.

First of all the Bereans, who Dogg is referring to searched the OT scriptures for the Messianic prohesies, They didn’t search the NT for they had it standing in front of them in the form of an Apostle. Furthermore the early church was definitely not sola scripturist. Look at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The Apostles did not refer to scripture. Instead they claimed a direct revelation from God and said:

"28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: [Acts 15:28]

Oddly enough the sola scripturists in the matter were the Judiacizers who wanted the Gentiles to obey the Mosaic Law as written in the OT. The sola scripturists were wrong then as they are today.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon9791
I’m not going to coment on anything but the bold part here. To have faith in God is to have faith in His church. Consider the questions that have been asked to you already which you either can’t or refuse to answer and ask yourself which church is God’s church.

Is it the one that can trace it’s apostalic succession back to Jesus or is it the Second First Street Full Gospel Open Your Eyes To Christ On Fire Baptist Assembly of God started by “Brother” Jesse because he disagreed with something someone at his former church said?

You have used your own fallible reasoning and your own fallible interpretation of Scripture to reason (fallibly) that the apostle Peter was the first in an unbroken succession of popes. Who told you that these things were true? By who’s authority did they teach?

Oh come on now the historical record is sufficient proof so no 'reasoning is necessary. It is there staring you in the face. Even secular [non Catholic] historians are in agreement on it. Seems to me that you are hung up on this idea of “fallible reasoning” and “fallible teaching”. Maybe you should apply your questions about “fallible reasoning” and “fallible teaching” to your own denomination. By the way what is your denomination?

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggAlvarez
The reason why people do not believe the Catholic Church is because they do not fully trust that God can or will protect them from untruth. They think that they themselves have the power to interpret the Bible for themselves in order that they may at least think they are in Truth. That has not worked out too well for Protestants.

True, that has not worked out too well for Protestants. So why do you think it will work out any better for RC’s?

Because every protestant denomination denies that they possess any authority. That’s why. Protestants are so brain washed by the demonic doctrine of sola scriptura. That is why they have flipped flopped on issues such as abortion, contraception, divorce and remarriage and others. At one time every protestant denomination held that these were grave sins. Today they permit them all. No wonder protestants can’t accept a God that will protect them from untruth. That God does not exist in protestantism. But He does in Catholicism.

 

[Doggg]

There are some incredibly important issues in life upon which Christians vehemently disagree. For example: abortion, contraception, infant baptism, the ordination of women, homosexuality.

How are we to know, with certainty, the correct stance to take on any of these issues? Christians on both sides of the debate use Scripture to back up their claims. Intelligent, learned people on both sides of the debate have studied the Scriptures, and each claim that their interpetation of Scripture backs up their stance. How do we know whose interpretation of Scripture is correct?

The answer is: we can’t, unless God has given us an authority on earth that is infallible, to guide His Church into all truth and holiness.

If He hasn’t, it seems to be rather shoddy work on His part, to let us all commit potential sin without giving us an objective way to know for sure if what we’re doing is against His will. Our subjective human intellect and emotions certainly can’t be trusted, as the great sins of many Christians can attest.

This is what I mean when I describe an attitude that is no different from that of Muslim extremists who love their religion but they don’t even know God. Your whole way of viewing error on things such as abortion, contraception, infant baptism, the ordination of women, and homosexuality, is to blame the religious dogma (sola Scriptura) of your enemy. And who is your enemy? That would be any individual or group that is perceived as a threat to your RCC dogmas.

If you knew God and understood His word, you would know that it isn’t sola Scriptura that has resulted in wrong interpretations of Scripture; it is sin that causes people and groups of people to wrongly interpret Scripture. On this, and so many issues, you should (if you love God) side with God and reject this wrong idea that SS has been the cause of error and division among people who profess to be followers of Jesus. Does this make sense to you? Why attack those who trust in God’s word for their truth when the real cause of error and division has always been sin?

 

[Doggg]

And how is it that this infallible source of truth, the Scriptures, came to be in the hands of Christians?

It was God’s plan to provide His sheep with all that is necessary for their salvation and their sanctification. For this reason God provided His Holy word and His Holy Spirit to sustain and increase His kingdom.

You didn’t ever consider that when you entered this discussion, and it has caused you to become tied up in a Gordian knot.

How so?

Either you believe in an infallible Church, or you believe the Scriptures are wrong.

I don’t believe in an infallible church, and I don’t believe the Scriptures are wrong. I believe that God Himself is infallible and that God has the ability to impart His truth (even in written form) free of error to His people.

Either you believe the CC infallibly declared Hebrews to be inspired, or you have doubts that it is. Perhaps you think the Gnostic gospels ought to have been included?

I believe that what the RCC declares is fallible. My accepting of Scripture has absolutely nothing to do with what Rome says.

What errors do you believe the CC made in discerning the canon of Scripture?

If you would like to discuss this topic, it would be better for you to start a new thread dealing with the canon.

If they made an error, then you can’t accept the Scriptures.

I don’t really follow your logic here. Perhaps you could explain it?

If they didn’t make an error, then you accept that the CC is infallible.

Again, I’m not following your logic.

 

[Doggg]

That seems to be what you’re saying. (See your quote below)

You don’t believe you have obtained infallible knowledge?

How can a fallible mind (mine) having fallible reasoning, fallible interpretation of words, and fallible logic, obtain infallible knowledge? Are you ever going to explain how this is possible?

Incidentally, you don’t believe Jesus was the only infallible teacher, Doggg, right? I mean, don’t you believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Moses, etc wrote infallible encyclicals?

Yes, I believe that only Jesus had the ability to teach perfect truth without any error at every instance, at every time. But I also believe that Scripture is free of error.

 

[wanner47]

This is what I mean when I describe an attitude that is no different from that of Muslim extremists who love their religion but they don’t even know God. Your whole way of viewing error on things such as abortion, contraception, infant baptism, the ordination of women, and homosexuality, is to blame the religious dogma (sola Scriptura) of your enemy. And who is your enemy? That would be any individual or group that is perceived as a threat to your RCC dogmas.

When did I ever say anyone was my enemy? Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Why are you avoiding answering my question? How is one supposed to know the correct stance on, say, abortion, if it all depends on private interpretation of Scripture? Knowing whether or not God is okay with killing babies in the womb seems to be pretty crucial, don’t you think?

If you knew God and understood His word, you would know that it isn’t sola Scriptura that has resulted in wrong interpretations of Scripture; it is sin that causes people and groups of people to wrongly interpret Scripture.

The logical conclusion of your argument is that only people without sin can correctly interpret Scripture; ergo, no one can.

If you knew God and understood His word, you would know that sola scriptura is the root of all division in the Church, and it was not Christ’s intention for people to be their own popes, and declare right and wrong based on their own interpretation of the Bible.

On this, and so many issues, you should (if you love God) side with God and reject this wrong idea that SS has been the cause of error and division among people who profess to be followers of Jesus. Does this make sense to you?

No, it does not. Because I love God, I listen to the Church that He established, just as He told me to do. (See Matthew 18:17; 23:1-12).

Why attack those who trust in God’s word for their truth when the real cause of error and division has always been sin?

Why attack those who trust in the Church that Jesus established, when the real cause of error and division has always been those who sinfully refuse to do so and instead interpret Scripture for themselves?

 

[Doggg]

Actually, what they searched was the OT, so if you go by the Bible alone and follow the example of the Bereans, they searched only the OT.

Is that what you’re proposing, Doggg?

Yes. The OT was all that they had.

 

[Doggg]

Your faith in God cannot be separated from the Church. You serve Jesus without a Body. It’s incomplete.

Like all of Protestantism, you have only the partial truth. Jesus without the Church. Scriptures without Tradition.

When someone says their faith is in God–as if dismissing the Church–that is puzzling to me. *How else have they come to know God, ***except by what the Catholic Church has provided to them? **

Unless you believe God speaks to you in private revelation and dreams, then you need a Church to tell you what God said.

Either you’re still arguing in a circle or I don’t follow your logic. Perhaps you could explain this:

When someone says their faith is in God–as if dismissing the Church–that is puzzling to me. *How else have they come to know God, ***except by what the Catholic Church has provided to them? **

And this:

Unless you believe God speaks to you in private revelation and dreams, then you need a Church to tell you what God said.

 

[Doggg]

You see this is where your assumptions that Catholics use fallible reasoning to interpret the Bible. We don’t need the Bible to tell us Peter was the first pope. We can look at history and the ECF’s and read about the primacy of Peter. By who’s authority did the Apostle’s teach? Uhhh, man, what’s that Guy’s name? You know, He had that beard and He mighta been a carpenter and I think He changed water to wine once. Oh yeah, Jesus. Just look in a history book and you’ll find the answers.

The problem with this is that you seem to be asserting that history can only be interpreted in ONE WAY. That, of course, is false. If it were true, we would all be small c catholics!

 

[Doggg]

When did I ever say anyone was my enemy? Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Is sola Scriptura your enemy? No, SS is a dogma–a way of discerning error from truth. So it would seem that the “enemy” for the RCC must be those people (or groups) that adhere to SS and any other way of discerning truth that is not dependent on Rome’s authority. Make no mistake: it is those who are MOST DEVOTED TO ROME that must attack SS, not those who worship God.

Why are you avoiding answering my question? How is one supposed to know the correct stance on, say, abortion, if it all depends on private interpretation of Scripture? Knowing whether or not God is okay with killing babies in the womb seems to be pretty crucial, don’t you think?

Are you saying that Scripture is not really clear on whether abortion is a sin?

The logical conclusion of your argument is that only people without sin can correctly interpret Scripture; ergo, no one can.

Not quite. I’m saying that people with sinful minds can, and often will, incorrectly interpret Scripture. Without the guidance of God, through the Holy Spirit, none of us could benefit from Scripture.

If you knew God and understood His word, you would know that sola scriptura is the root of all division in the Church, and it was not Christ’s intention for people to be their own popes, and declare right and wrong based on their own interpretation of the Bible.

Where in the bible have you found any suggestion of a papacy? Why is God offended by sola Scriptura?

 

[Doggg]

Why attack those who trust in the Church that Jesus established, when the real cause of error and division has always been those who sinfully refuse to do so and instead interpret Scripture for themselves?

OK, you do not endorse personal interpretation of Scripture. Can you explain how you came to know that the RCC is the one founded by Jesus? If you came to know this without relying on your personal interpretation of Scripture, did you reason your way to this knowledge by the study of history?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

True, that has not worked out too well for Protestants. So why do you think it will work out any better for RC’s?

Because it has and it is not necessarily for Roman Catholics… It has worked for the Church and anybody who believes all the Truths taught by her is a Catholic. The Church is for us, not us for her.

As a relevant side note, the Catholic martyrs did not just die for Christ, they died for the Truth. These fallible Catholics knew without a doubt what was true. How is that? They trusted God. Look at the Apostles. Yeah, they died for Christ, but they also died because they knew what was true.

You do not give people much credit.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

OK, you do not endorse personal interpretation of Scripture. Can you explain how you came to know that the RCC is the one founded by Jesus? If you came to know this without relying on your personal interpretation of Scripture, did you reason your way to this knowledge by the study of history?

Correct me if I am wrong Wanner:

Wanner was talking about eternal Truths (doctrine) that are not supposed to be personally interpreted. We can all look for ourselves and find Scriptural foundations to any and all doctrine, whether implicit or explicit. It is Tradition that sheds light to Scriptures for these eternal Truths.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Neither do most Muslims.

The ones you were talking about… Yes they do. But, they are only the fundamentalist or extremist ones. Do not change the subject on me here. I get confused enough.

Have you been reading what Catholics have been writing here? It is MOSTLY devotion, honor, praise, and worship of their religion. Are you unbiased enough to see that?

Ok… Devotion, honor and praise maybe… Worship? Heck no! Are you unbiased enough to see that you are being very bias? I do not see it because you are forcing something that is not there. None of these people do what you want them to do. If I said I was going to pray to Mary, you would think “Mary worshipper!!” But, as usual, you would be wrong.

You should check and ask a Catholic what honor, devotion and praise actually mean…

Just stop being bias and figure out from Catholics what they actually do and mean. You seem to be in the position “I do not care what they say. What I say is what they do because whatever seems true is in fact true in my eyes.”

 

[GreggAlvarez]

If you love God, then you really don’t need to worry about what other people may think. None of it matters one bit. Just continue to love God and worship Him, and only Him.

I agree… That was not my point. You just seem to think you know Catholic worship practices better than any Catholic. We respect, love and devote ourselves to the Church. By doing that, we respect, love and devote and worship our God more and more because of the gifts He has given us through the Church. That is, the Sacraments and especially the Blessed Sacrament.

You seem to think I do not worship God only. Why is that? Because I defend Truth? Sure that is begging the question but Truth does not depend on us. Truth is Truth. I just defend it to the best of my abilities.

I worship God.

Good. As we all should. All Catholics worship God and God only

I didn’t understand this.

My point was that you speak of the Bible the exact same way as we speak about our Church. If you are going to claim that we worship the religion, then you are admitting you worship the Bible. There is no way around this, unless you stop claiming that we worship our religion. We do not and no Catholic does. Your comments are unwarranted.

No, loving your mother doesn’t have to entail worshiping her.

Good. I was surprised at the answer though.

My observations about the worshiping of a religion are not intended to be directed personally to you. I’m only saying that, based on what most RC’s have been posting here, I’ve observed an attitude of religion worship that that is not much different from that of Muslim extremists.

Well, know that you are wrong. It does not matter what you say or think on this. You are wrong. You just misunderstand and probably do it on purpose. Stop insulting us. Please. If you did not intend to insult me yet insult my Church or anybody in it (this includes non-Catholics as separated brethren), then you are insulting them and me. No way around not insulting me.

It has been claimed here, that fallible minds can obtain infallible teachings from an infallible religion. None of these prideful assertions have ever been proven to be POSSIBLE much less true. Yet these things are accepted as fact!

Well, know that you are wrong here also. You do not give God or people much credit. You seem like an agnostic that we cannot know 100% what is true. The religion is not what is infallible, Christ’s Body, the Catholic Church is. If you can tell me one wrong doctrine in the Church, then we will prove that you are wrong.

Infallible Truths can be obtained through and from fallible minds. Look at the Bible writers. Fallible people moved by the Holy Spirit to speak eternal Truths. Look at what was taught by the Apostles before there was a New Testament. They were teaching the TRUTH about Christ’s Resurrection as well as other things.

If you can claim to know with certitude that Christ rose from the dead, then you are already proving yourself wrong (which is a good thing). If you claim that we cannot know that, then you are not Christian. I am pretty sure that you will take the former position. You are a fallible mind that knows an infallible Truth. How? Another fallible mind taught it. You can follow this apostolic succession all the way to the Apostles and you will see that they are infallible. The only Church who claims to have infallibility is the Church. Everybody else’s denomination’s doctrine start with personal interpretation of the Bible.

Infallibility is for us, not because of us. You misunderstand it.

God bless and I hope you stop making blind assertions that we “worship a religion” because that is false and you know it.

 

[Doggg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggAlvarez
The reason why people do not believe the Catholic Church is because they do not fully trust that God can or will protect them from untruth.

Or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that God has provided the Holy Spirit to guide His sheep to the truth needed for their salvation and sanctification.

Because every protestant denomination denies that they possess any authority.

Or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that God has provided a set of authoritative teachings that are Scripture, which is able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is my belief that all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Protestants are so brain washed by the demonic doctrine of sola scriptura. That is why they have flipped flopped on issues such as abortion, contraception, divorce and remarriage and others. At one time every protestant denomination held that these were grave sins. Today they permit them all. No wonder protestants can’t accept a God that will protect them from untruth. That God does not exist in protestantism. But He does in Catholicism.

I can see that you have very strong faith in your religion. But that is not the faith that saves. It amounts to the worship of a religion, not much different from that of Muslim extremists. If the RCC ever starts to proclaim that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, run away from Rome, and run away fast! It is nothing but the worship of a religion. It is idol worship, and it is not a tiny sin!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Is sola Scriptura your enemy? No, SS is a dogma–a way of discerning error from truth. So it would seem that the “enemy” for the RCC must be those people (or groups) that adhere to SS and any other way of discerning truth that is not dependent on Rome’s authority. Make no mistake: it is those who are MOST DEVOTED TO ROME that must attack SS, not those who worship God.

So, if Sola Scriptura is true and according to your theory that fallible minds cannot obtain infallible Truths, then you cannot even know for sure what is wrong with the Church. (Although, there is nothing wrong in the Church, I will grant you this absurd comment.) Your own beliefs kill themselves.

Make no mistake, Catholics worship God and do not worship Rome… This is what I have been being very patient with you on. I suggest you stop. You will probably be banned for insulting people.

Are you saying that Scripture is not really clear on whether abortion is a sin?

Wanner asked 3 questions and you are wasting time by asking a ridiculous question? Come on… Yes, Scriptures are clear. Wanner was asking if you knew an infallible Truth from the Bible. If yes, then you shoot down your own theory.

Not quite. I’m saying that people with sinful minds can, and often will, incorrectly interpret Scripture. Without the guidance of God, through the Holy Spirit, none of us could benefit from Scripture.

I agree. It is Sacred Tradition that interprets eternal Truths from Scriptures for us. Why are you not Catholic? Jesus and the Apostles taught! Through apostolic succession, Scriptures have been lighted up like a light bulb through Tradition!

Your own statements break down your own arguments!

The Holy Spirit and Scriptures is not something to be trivialized… You cannot just pray to the Holy Spirit and assume that you will interpret eternal Truths infallibly!

Where in the bible have you found any suggestion of a papacy? Why is God offended by sola Scriptura?

1. The New Testament and prefigurements in the Old
2. Because Jesus taught orally and the Apostles only wrote down some of what they taught. In any case, we still need Tradition to shed light on the Truths of Scripture.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that god has provided the holy spirit to guide his sheep to the truth needed for their salvation and sanctification.

Or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that god has provided a set of authoritative teachings that are scripture, which is able to make you wise for salvation through faith in christ jesus. It is my belief that all scripture is god-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of god may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I can see that you have very strong faith in your religion. But that is not the faith that saves. It amounts to the worship of a religion, not much different from that of muslim extremists. If the rcc ever starts to proclaim that there is no salvation outside of the rcc, run away from rome, and run away fast! It is nothing but the worship of a religion. It is idol worship, and it is not a tiny sin!

stop insulting us! Please! We do not worship a religion. Your derisive comments are unjustified, unjustifiable and terribly wrong and completely unchristian!