Dear VicoThere are no accidents in God. An accident is that which is not of the essence. For the Holy Trinity:
- Relation does not really differ from essence.
- Relation has a real distinction by virtue of opposition.
- Thus there are one essence and three persons.
No real distinction exists between the essence and the persons. There is real distinction by opposition of persons (and this does not introduce accidents).Dear Vico
If relation = Essence so distinction is not real, because relation as a distinction between persons, can’t be what is common between them(Essence). Each person has a distinction from other persons and this distinction can’t be Essence, Because Essence is shared between them,
Absolutely, If distinction is not real, Trinity can’t be real.
Best Regards
Dear VicoNo real distinction exists between the essence and the persons. There is real distinction by opposition of persons (and this does not introduce accidents).
So you see in post #13: “The supreme unity and simplicity of God does not exclude plurality of relations because they are founded relatively, which means they do not import composition.”
“the[y] must have a common part and a distinction, and common part can’t be the distinction”Dear Vico
Why don’t you read my words carefully? Who said any thing about distinction between persons and Essence? I’m discussing on persons and the real distinction between them, not about essence of God. As I said the must have a common part and a distinction, and common part can’t be the distinction, because it shared between persons, And I asked How can they be simple?
Dear Vico“the[y] must have a common part and a distinction, and common part can’t be the distinction”
The statement from post 1 “So each person has two parts, essence and distinction, because essence is not their distinction” is incorrect. The error is in the idea that distinction is a part. God is simple, there are no parts.
There are relations in God. Relation can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance. St. Thomas Aquinas uses Aristotle’s idea of relation, see Categories). “Relation” means that which makes something of, than, or to some other thing.
Aristotle, Categories: Part 4 - Expressions which are in no way composite signify substance, quantity, quality, relation, place, time, position, state, action, or affection. To sketch my meaning roughly, examples of substance are ‘man’ or ‘the horse’, of quantity, such terms as ‘two cubits long’ or ‘three cubits long’, of quality, such attributes as ‘white’, ‘grammatical’. ‘Double’, ‘half’, ‘greater’, fall under the category of relation; ‘in a the market place’, ‘in the Lyceum’, under that of place; ‘yesterday’, ‘last year’, under that of time. ‘Lying’, ‘sitting’, are terms indicating position, ‘shod’, ‘armed’, state; ‘to lance’, ‘to cauterize’, action; ‘to be lanced’, ‘to be cauterized’, affection.
No one of these terms, in and by itself, involves an affirmation; it is by the combination of such terms that positive or negative statements arise. For every assertion must, as is admitted, be either true or false, whereas expressions which are not in any way composite such as ‘man’, ‘white’, ‘runs’, ‘wins’, cannot be either true or false.
classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/categories.2.2.html
Yes. Relation can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance.Dear Vico
Please answer clearly: Is it possible for what is common to be distinction?
If yes, Please say me how.
If no, When distinction is real and Divine Essence is real, so each person has two distinct things: Essence and Relation, and these two can’t be one, because one is common and one is distinction!
I know God is simple. Question is: How Persons can be God, in this condition?
No.Please answer clearly: Is it possible for what is common to be distinction?
When considering a person, the relations of a person are outside of the person. In contrast when considering a collection of persons, the relation(s) of persons is in the collection. Your analysis confuses the singularity and the plurality of God.If no, When distinction is real and Divine Essence is real, so each person has two distinct things: Essence and Relation, and these two can’t be one, because one is common and one is distinction!
I find a similar question to be: How can God be a singularity and a plurality?Question is: How Persons can be God, in this condition?
Also circumincession (or circuminsession**) **dogma from the Catholic Council of Florence is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct but *inseparable. *Maximus Confessor (died 662 A.D.) used the word perichoresis not circumincession."Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning. and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.’’
Dear Vico,Yes. Relation can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance.
- Relation does not really differ from essence.
- Relation has a real distinction by virtue of opposition.
- Thus there are one essence and three persons.
Dear JochoaWhen considering a person, the relations of a person are outside of the person. In contrast when considering a collection of persons, the relation(s) of persons is in the collection. Your analysis confuses the singularity and the plurality of God.
Dear Jochoa my Question is about God’s Essence, Do you think that God made his own essence or his essence is self-exist? Divine Simplicity is Essential. So you can’t say chooses to be so! God is simple, didn’t choose to be simple. If else, you must imagine a condition that God is not simple and after that he chooses to be simple!I find a similar question to be: How can God be a singularity and a plurality?
Simple answer because God chooses to be.
More detailed answer:
There are three distinct ways of being a nature.
Thanks for continuing the discussion! I have thoroughly enjoyed considering the points stated!
- Always was the nature.
- Always is the nature.
- Always will be the nature.
Further analysis reveals that Always is can be eternally begotten/replicated from Always was, and Always will be can be eternally proceeding from Always was and Always is.
In other words, God, while remaining God, can become Man, and God can become God through God, while remaining God, become Man.
God, as a singularity, chooses to be the plurality because he shares the patience and kindness necessary to experience unbreakable peace with unending joy to others.
Dear Vico, This dogma does not teach that distinction is EsseneceAlso circumincession (or circuminsession**) **dogma from the Catholic Council of Florence is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct but *inseparable. *Maximus Confessor (died 662 A.D.) used the word perichoresis not circumincession."Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning. and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.’’
We do have unity of the essence and distinction of Persons because, in God, the relations are subsistent.
St. Thomas explains using the established metaphysics of Aristotle that I posted before, with reference. Relation can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance. Distinction does not have to differ from what is common. It arises from relation which is a real difference:When something proceeds from a principle of the same nature then both the one proceeding and the source of procession agree in the same order; and then they have real relations to each other…these relations, according to the divine processions, are necessarily real relations.Dear Vico,
You did not answer me. And what you said is unclear. Relation must be differ from essence, because distinction is differ from what is common.
Dear VicoSt. Thomas explains using the established metaphysics of Aristotle that I posted before, with reference. Relation can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance. Distinction does not have to differ from what is common. It arises from relation which is a real difference:When something proceeds from a principle of the same nature then both the one proceeding and the source of procession agree in the same order; and then they have real relations to each other…these relations, according to the divine processions, are necessarily real relations.
– Summa Theologica, I, q.28, a.1
Relation does not really differ from essence. The persons are founded in essence.
For the circumincession dogma, it means the unity and identity of substance. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be separated. This is also Orthodox: the mutuality, reciprocity, and communion.
Distinctions of relation that are internal to a substance do not give rise to parts. See the post on Categories by Aristotle.Dear Vico
Distinction does have to differ from what is common because “what is common” is what each person has it and distinction is what a person has it and another person does not have it.
On the other hand, internal distinction in substance, separate it to parts and it is impossible because God is simple.
Dear VicoDistinctions of relation that are internal to a substance do not give rise to parts. See the post on Categories by Aristotle.
The simplicity of God is that there are no parts to God. Persons are not parts.Dear Vico
I have no idea if it does give rise to parts or not, but each person has two things inside: what is common and distinction, and a simple thing has no several things inside. Weather you call it part or any thing else.
Dear VicoThe simplicity of God is that there are no parts to God. Persons are not parts.
- Relation does not really differ from essence.
- Relation has a real distinction by virtue of opposition.
- Thus there are one essence and three persons.
That is not possible for God was not created. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not caused. The relations are founded in the essence.Dear Vico
You just repited your words. As I said Relation must be differ from essence.
Dear VicoThat is not possible for God was not created. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not caused. The relations are founded in the essence.
For that which is created, only those things subsist which are composite. Every composite has a cause.