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estesbob
Guest
No he built a straw man and then with great zest knocked it down.
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estesbob
Guest
So should a woman be able to sue to be ordained a Priest since she feels. as a woman, she is being unjustly discriminated against? How about two people who have been divorced-should they be able to sue to force the church them to marry them since they feel they have been “unjustly” discriminated against? Is there a absolute right for someone to be a participant in a religious ceremony?Correct, as the complainant believes that he is unjustly being discriminated against.
He believes that he’s a good Catholic, yet believes he is being singled out because he is a chaste homosexual.
Now, the tribunal will hear the evidence and make a ruling.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
The example only makes sense when you come up with unreasonable ideas of what constitutes worship. His example was sacrificing a human being.He’s making a great point. Many on this board insist that under no circumstance, can the state interfere with God worship.
He very succinctly presented a scenario, where the state would intervene.
Apples to apples.
For centuries and perhaps millenia, in our western tradition, worship has involved prayers and harmless rituals. The whole notion of religious freedom is tied up with our heritage of what constitutes a religion.
The example in question here is about religious worship in the traditional sense - no one is arguing that the role of an altar server is some strange new religion that was not envisioned by the term “freedom of religion”. This is the person who carries the holy book to the altar and assists the priest during the Catholic ritual. It’s completely within the scope of centuries and centuries of legal precedent about what religion is.
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averheyen
Guest
Agreed. And the only place in Canada where you could file such a complaint and actually have it taken seriously is in the Human Rights Comissions. If you were to have filed a real case in a real court on this matter, you would have been laughed out.So should a woman be able to sue to be ordained a Priest since she feels. as a woman, she is being unjustly discriminated against? How about two people who have been divorced-should they be able to sue to force the church them to marry them since they feel they have been “unjustly” discriminated against? Is there a absolute right for someone to be a participant in a religious ceremony?
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fix
Guest
He is wrong. There is no right to serve at the altar and it is not for the State to intefer.Correct, as the complainant believes that he is unjustly being discriminated against.
He needs to seek the Church authority in this matter not the state.He believes that he’s a good Catholic, yet believes he is being singled out because he is a chaste homosexual.
Their “ruling” does not apply as they are not the legitimate authority in such matters.Now, the tribunal will hear the evidence and make a ruling.
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arcio
Guest
Knowing the outcome of a case before it is even tried, is what I call a Kangaroo court.… he could have hired a cannon lawyer if he felt he was so unjustly dismissed. Although, I’m almost one hundred percent positive that if he brought a case in cannon law against the bishop, the bishop would be seen as in the right.
A Kangeroo court…
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averheyen
Guest
Are you familiar with irony?Knowing the outcome of a case before it is even tried, is what I call a Kangaroo court.
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estesbob
Guest
No-thats called a default judgement. A Kangaroo court is one where the defendent knows they will be found guilty regardless of the evidence presented.Knowing the outcome of a case before it is even tried, is what I call a Kangaroo court.
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averheyen
Guest
I think the reason that the Human Rights Commissions are often refered to as “Kangeroo” courts is because they skip aroud the loopholes of real law, and make their own judgements and set their own precidents that would never hold in a real court. “Inquisition” is a good word to use to describe them too.
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estesbob
Guest
I tink even the word “loopholes” is too mild to describe what they do. they are under no restirctions to follow the law. if the defnedent disagrees they have to spend money to take it to a civil court.I think the reason that the Human Rights Commissions are often refered to as “Kangeroo” courts is because they skip aroud the loopholes of real law, and make their own judgements and set their own precidents that would never hold in a real court. “Inquisition” is a good word to use to describe them too.
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Phemie
Guest
When they are not required to follow the rules of evidence as in a regular trial, when the defendant is not allowed a defense and when the burden of proof lies on the defense it is a farce. Ironically, it violates the charter rights of the accused to guarantee the charter rights of the plaintiff.I think the reason that the Human Rights Commissions are often refered to as “Kangeroo” courts is because they skip aroud the loopholes of real law, and make their own judgements and set their own precidents that would never hold in a real court. “Inquisition” is a good word to use to describe them too.
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averheyen
Guest
Yeah, that.When they are not required to follow the rules of evidence as in a regular trial, when the defendant is not allowed a defense and when the burden of proof lies on the defense it is a farce. Ironically, it violates the charter rights of the accused to guarantee the charter rights of the plaintiff.
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arcio
Guest
What avenue of defense does the Church provide this celibate and chaste homosexual against the charges that he is a homosexual engaged in a scandalous lifestyle?When they are not required to follow the rules of evidence as in a regular trial, when the defendant is not allowed a defense and when the burden of proof lies on the defense it is a farce. Ironically, it violates the charter rights of the accused to guarantee the charter rights of the plaintiff.
A fair question. No?
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Phemie
Guest
He should have gone to plead his case to the Bishop not made a beeline for the HRT. If anyone else serving at the altar was giving scandal for other reasons (known adulterer, known remarried divorcee, known abortion provider, etc) I would expect them to be dealt with the same way. It’s not a job and they have no ‘right’ to be there so how can it be a ‘human rights’ case? The Church has a responsibility to ensure that someone’s presence at the altar is not causing scandal to even one person.What avenue of defense does the Church provide this celibate and chaste homosexual against the charges that he is a homosexual engaged in a scandalous lifestyle?
A fair question. No?
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estesbob
Guest
He should have approached the Priest and if not satified contacted the Bishop. He would not have much of a case regardless-if he didnt not want to cause scandal and was indeed living a chaste life here was no reason whatsoever for him to announce he was a homosexual I serilusly doubt the Church would allow a make altar server who was lving with an umarried woman regardless of whther he claimed he was chaste or not.What avenue of defense does the Church provide this celibate and chaste homosexual against the charges that he is a homosexual engaged in a scandalous lifestyle?
A fair question. No?
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averheyen
Guest
In all fairness too, the manner in which he “declares” himself to be a homosexual is enough to say “hey, maybe you shouldn’t be an altar server.” Not to mention the way he has pitted the government against the authority of the church. That’s almost enough to get you blacklisted.
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fix
Guest
Exactly, but this reasoning is lost on people who now view every aspect of life as a “right” and seek the almighty state as a remedy to get whatever desire.In all fairness too, the manner in which he “declares” himself to be a homosexual is enough to say “hey, maybe you shouldn’t be an altar server.” Not to mention the way he has pitted the government against the authority of the church. That’s almost enough to get you blacklisted.
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averheyen
Guest
I think he’s putting his desire to be a homosexual before his desire to be a faithful catholic.Exactly, but this reasoning is lost on people who now view every aspect of life as a “right” and seek the almighty state as a remedy to get whatever desire.
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arcio
Guest
Pretty bold statement, considering the fact that you don’t actually know this man.I think he’s putting his desire to be a homosexual before his desire to be a faithful catholic.
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Tigg
Guest
I think he’s putting his desire to be a homosexual before his desire to be a faithful catholic.
No, we don’t, but consider the following. What is the purpose of ministry? To serve God or to serve self? Fairly obvious that the spiritual elements in an earnest desire to live in God’s will would dictate the practice of humility. What is the greater virtue but obedience to one’s superiors when serving in an official church capacity. And I would remind you that church documents are very specific in the GIRM and will not allow any hint of scandal, which the Church considers to be a GRAVE offense, regarding lay ministry.Pretty bold statement, considering the fact that you don’t actually know this man.
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