B
buffalo
Guest
I was going to drop this thread but after reading this I had to respond.
Love is a human quality. We should not confuse instinct, territorialism, and rewards with human love.
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Love is a human quality. We should not confuse instinct, territorialism, and rewards with human love.
M
Marfran
Guest
Why would you drop this thread???
I was so sad this Mother’s Day. My mother is gone and I miss her–terribly. I laid down in my bed in the middle of the afternoon (Mother’s Day) with pain in my chest–actual physical pain–from my sorrow. (I am a mother also, by the way–but this does not lesson the feelings of loss that I have for my own mother.)
My cat jumped on to the bed and came right up to my ear and began to purr loudly into it. My mother loved cats too. I drifted off for a short nap with this cat purring in my ear–it was immeasurably comforting. Thank you Lord for comforting me in my sorrow, through this cat of your creation! When I awoke from the nap, the cat was still right there, the motor still going loudly. What a wonderful sound!!!
J
Jan_Bolbot
Guest
I am only competent to make this argument about dogs. I believe the answer is yes and I believe it is possible to offer rational, theological proofs that dogs may go heaven. (Well, good dogs at least.) Here’s a thumbnail version.
Anyone who has had a dog knows that how they react to you is more than instinct or territoriality. Dogs love you and to a limited extent understand you. There is no question about this. (My German shepherd probably understands about 200 words; although studies indicate that some dogs --border collies and standard poodles–have more.) They understand your emotions and respond to them. If you are stomping around with rage, they react one way, if you are dancing with joy another. When my son curls up on his bed crying, our shepherd goes and licks his face until he is forced to stop. It is mysterious, but they “reflect” certain human characteristics. Dogs have emotions, though they are very simple and they don’t have a sense of past or future, living entirely in the “now.”
Example: in the city where I lived several years ago, there was armed bank robber, a very violent repeat offender. The police were in hot pursuit and a K9 squad was sent in. The robber ambushed the K9 officer, shot him twice. Officer was down. He also shot the dog. The criminal then attempted to finish off the wounded officer with a shot to the head. But his wounded K9 partner grabbed the shooters’ arm and he missed. The criminal then shot the dog twice, this with a .357 Magnum, one of most powerful handguns out there. Both shots were fatal. One smashed the dog’s spine. The criminal then turned again to the bleeding officer and pointed the gun at his head. The dog, bleeding from massive wounds again lunged at the shooter, hitting his arm and causing him to miss. At this point, his gun was empty and other police units were closing in, forcing the robber to flee. He was soon captured. Now we know that courage is a human quality and yet to define this incident as mere instinct would be obtuse at best. Instinct would dictate that the dog save itself. If it is not courage, then the word loses all meaning.
Why do dogs reflect human characteristics? The answer is that they are not “purely” animals. What do I mean? Dogs are not merely tame wolves, they are a species created by human beings–or rather to use Tolkien’s term, they are “sub-creations.” (Humans don’t create de novo like God but rather take what God has given them and subcreate.) Dogs have been designed over several millennia to live with humans, and do a myriad of tasks. They would not exist without us. Research indicates that dogs are “programmed” to respond to human beings. They react differently to humans than domesticated wolves raised from birth by humans.
In other words, they are in same category as works of art (e.g. human subcreations). Granted, Heaven is more glorious than the Sistine Chapel, but to say “great art will not be in Heaven” sounds a bit odd. God conserves all love. That which is made with love is pleasing to God and thus would likely find a place in Heaven. I imagine this being like a child who makes a picture for Mom or Dad–it is not great art but it is treasured because of how and why it was made. In this case we are the children, God the parent.
Dogs are among our oldest and most enduring creations (roughly 10,000 years). They are one of our best creations. So why wouldn’t they be pleasing to God? To make the counter-argument that dogs cannot be in Heaven is to assume that God would disdain his own handiwork ("…and God saw that it was good…") and would further disdain human subcreations made out of love. This makes some very large assumptions about the nature of God that seem highly presumptious and fly in the face of common sense. So, dogs in heaven: yes.
JB
P.S. No offense to cat lovers.
P.S.S. I hope lizards will be excluded from Heaven but that’s not my call.
Anyone who has had a dog knows that how they react to you is more than instinct or territoriality. Dogs love you and to a limited extent understand you. There is no question about this. (My German shepherd probably understands about 200 words; although studies indicate that some dogs --border collies and standard poodles–have more.) They understand your emotions and respond to them. If you are stomping around with rage, they react one way, if you are dancing with joy another. When my son curls up on his bed crying, our shepherd goes and licks his face until he is forced to stop. It is mysterious, but they “reflect” certain human characteristics. Dogs have emotions, though they are very simple and they don’t have a sense of past or future, living entirely in the “now.”
Example: in the city where I lived several years ago, there was armed bank robber, a very violent repeat offender. The police were in hot pursuit and a K9 squad was sent in. The robber ambushed the K9 officer, shot him twice. Officer was down. He also shot the dog. The criminal then attempted to finish off the wounded officer with a shot to the head. But his wounded K9 partner grabbed the shooters’ arm and he missed. The criminal then shot the dog twice, this with a .357 Magnum, one of most powerful handguns out there. Both shots were fatal. One smashed the dog’s spine. The criminal then turned again to the bleeding officer and pointed the gun at his head. The dog, bleeding from massive wounds again lunged at the shooter, hitting his arm and causing him to miss. At this point, his gun was empty and other police units were closing in, forcing the robber to flee. He was soon captured. Now we know that courage is a human quality and yet to define this incident as mere instinct would be obtuse at best. Instinct would dictate that the dog save itself. If it is not courage, then the word loses all meaning.
Why do dogs reflect human characteristics? The answer is that they are not “purely” animals. What do I mean? Dogs are not merely tame wolves, they are a species created by human beings–or rather to use Tolkien’s term, they are “sub-creations.” (Humans don’t create de novo like God but rather take what God has given them and subcreate.) Dogs have been designed over several millennia to live with humans, and do a myriad of tasks. They would not exist without us. Research indicates that dogs are “programmed” to respond to human beings. They react differently to humans than domesticated wolves raised from birth by humans.
In other words, they are in same category as works of art (e.g. human subcreations). Granted, Heaven is more glorious than the Sistine Chapel, but to say “great art will not be in Heaven” sounds a bit odd. God conserves all love. That which is made with love is pleasing to God and thus would likely find a place in Heaven. I imagine this being like a child who makes a picture for Mom or Dad–it is not great art but it is treasured because of how and why it was made. In this case we are the children, God the parent.
Dogs are among our oldest and most enduring creations (roughly 10,000 years). They are one of our best creations. So why wouldn’t they be pleasing to God? To make the counter-argument that dogs cannot be in Heaven is to assume that God would disdain his own handiwork ("…and God saw that it was good…") and would further disdain human subcreations made out of love. This makes some very large assumptions about the nature of God that seem highly presumptious and fly in the face of common sense. So, dogs in heaven: yes.
JB
P.S. No offense to cat lovers.
P.S.S. I hope lizards will be excluded from Heaven but that’s not my call.
D
DrFloyd
Guest
You obviously have never had a close pet…if you did, you would know that display far more than “instinct, territorialism, and rewards with human love”.
I still want to know why love is only a “human” quality. Says who? Another human?
D
DrFloyd
Guest
Excellent post, JB!
M
Marfran
Guest
Yes, fabulous post** JB**!!!
L
LilyM
Guest
I have had close pets. They’re certainly much more than robots in furry covers, but they’re NOT human. And it is dangerous to ascribe human emotions such as love to them. Or human characteristics such as immortality. Some of them eat their own partners or young
how could any creature do that as a fairly routine part of their life who experiences emotion remotely similar to human love?Surely if they were immortal, destined for heaven, it would be as sinful to kill them as it is to kill humans? In fact what WOULD be the difference between them and us? If anything, not having sinned, they’d be higher up in the heavenly hierarchy than we, for sure.
God speaks to us in all creation, animate and inanimate, immortal and not. The fact that mountains, the ocean, a rose or a puppy or kitten does this is not proof that these things have immortal souls.
After all, God also speaks to us through scripture. It is God-breathed, which animals are not. They merely sprang forth at his command as did all the inanimate matter - the earth, the sun and moon and so on. Unlike man who alone of all the creatures was fashioned by God’s own hand literally, and alone of all creation DID have God breathe His spirit into him.
I appreciate the story about the cat being a comfort for the loss of the mother. Queen Victoria found great comfort when she lost her husband too. But not from animals, although she loved animals. Instead it came from sleeping every night thereafter with a plaster cast of his hand next to her, and having his clothes and shaving gear laid out in her rooms every morning as they had been while he was alive.
I myself have been taken down memory lane with thoughts of my beloved grandfather simply by seeing a plate full of his favourite cakes that he used to cook for us (he had been trained as a pastry cook in younger days).
God brings us comfort in all sorts of ways - it’s no proof that I will have grandad’s cakes with me in heaven or Queen Victoria her husband’s clothes or shaving gear that these things comforted us in times of grief!
Scripture says ‘a new heaven and a new earth’. Not ‘like now only better’, but something that we haven’t even conceived of, as St Paul tells us. Somehow that doesn’t scream to me of us having an Earth v 2.0 or pets v 2.0.
Our end and aim is God, all creation draws us to Him, and possessing Him in heaven we’re unlikely to need much else - and I can’t see us preferring inferior goods, good though they may be, to the all-satisfying good of His presence.
M
Marfran
Guest
LilyM: Ascribing human emotions to animals is called anthropomorphism. It is dangerous only in the context that in dealing with an animal, especially a wild one, one can not interpret its reaction, or predict a behavior based on human emotion/experience. Animals that are domestic, or that live in captivity, do have different reactions and experience bases to draw from. As would a human being that was raised away from civilized society.And it is dangerous to ascribe human emotions such as love to them. Some of them eat their own partners or young
Our end and aim is God, all creation draws us to Him, and possessing Him in heaven we’re unlikely to need much else - and I can’t see us preferring inferior goods, good though they may be, to the all-satisfying good of His presence.
Animals that eat their young–this is a topic that I would love to discuss with you–but it is quite involved and requires some understanding of zoology/biology. Zoology/biology is very fascinating–and the study of it oftens results in one developing a great appreciation for God and His handiwork.
Without getting into a long discussion, LilyM, I would like to remind you that in the human world you often see replications of things that happen in the animal worlds. Susan Smith, and other mothers have killed their young. Serial killers have stalked and killed human victims, our prisons are filled with humans who have killed other humans in disputes over territory, possessions, and mates.
LilyM, I do not have a quarrel with you or anything that you have said. I just want to direct you to perhaps expand some of your thinking. I think that your statement Our end and aim is God, all creation draws us to Him is awesome!!! The people (in this post) who experience animals in a positive way, are gifted and blessed. I am sad for the folks who consider God’s other creations, including animals, to be inferior works of His. (I don’t think that God created any* inferior *works, and all of His works compliment one and other. The hand cast that you speak of is man made, as well as is the cakes–though I don’t doubt that they brought comfort to the grieving humans.)
LilyM, I have a group here at CAF called Birds, Butterflies & Beasts. The intention of this group is to praise God through the appreciation of His beautiful Earth, and all the wondrous, amazing animals, birds, etc., that He has also created and gifted us with. There is a photograph posted on the group page, by one of the members, of a beautiful Red Sunset. It is amazing!!! The sun is not an inferior creation of God’s. Without it we can not survive here on Earth. We are intrinsically linked to ALL that God has created.
LilyM, I understand your frustration (and **buffalo’s **frustration) that the people in this post do not get it–that they are hung up on their *inferior animals. And to the posters with the inferior *animals, I understand your frustration with the posters who do not understand how your connection to animals is so wonderful, and how these gifts of love and companionship make you feel, and make your heart sing!!!
M
Marfran
Guest
P.S.** LilyM**: I have posted your fantastic quote: ***Our end and aim is God, all creation draws us to Him, *** on the ***Birds, Butterflies & Beasts ***group page. Thank you!!!
M
Marfran
Guest
P.S.S. It does NOT matter that animals are NOT HUMAN. To love them is to love GOD who created them, and loves them also!!!
N
noclevername
Guest
Great post Jan!! I am sad to read about the police dog but I know that dog felt loyalty to its owner. My dog was the same way.
I had a wonderful yellow lab for almost 14 years when he died of old age. But when he was here, he was my nurse, my shrink, my body guard, my diet control, etc.
Seriously. My dog had a way of telling me things. One time I got pretty sick and was coughing and coughing. I hate going to the doctor but my dog kept bugging me. He was being overly pushy, and kept nudging, etc. I knew what he was telling me. He was telling me that I needed to go to the human vet. So I did. It turns out that I had pneumonia and had I waited any longer I would have been in the hospital. I have been going to my doc for years and he knows how much I hate going and he asked me what prompted me to come in. When I told him my dog he said he was glad that Doggie Houser was so intelligent and made me come in or I would have gotten sicker.
This dog was a yellow lab and the most gentle thing in the world. Kids could climb all over him, pull his tail, take food out of his mouth, etc. He was gentle and sweet to everyone unless…you tried to hurt me. One time I was talking him around the neighborhood and my dog’s favorite thing to do in the world was meet new people. But one time we were walking and some guy in a truck with the window halfway down was at a stopsign. He was sitting there a little too long so I thought he might need directions. As we got closer to the car my dog started doign his mean bark letting that guy know not to come near us. My dog NEVER does this. Well, the guy drove away in a hurry. I really believe my dog had a sense about something and probably saved me.
The same thing happened at a popular park once. There were tons of people at the park but when we passed this one guy, my dog went nuts. That guy stayed far away from us.
When I divorced and started dating again, my dog let me know which guys were OK and which ones weren’t. The one guy I dated was a huge jerk but i refused to see it. When he came over, my dog wouldn’t get up to great him. When I was on the phone with the guy, my dog would leave the room. It was crazy. And guess what, my dog was right.
So, I KNOW that dogs have some human traits. They read feelings, they know when things aren’t right. They are wonderful.
Sadly, my handsome man died about 8 months ago and I am not ready for another one but I do share my life with a wonderful cat, by my dog approved of.
I had a wonderful yellow lab for almost 14 years when he died of old age. But when he was here, he was my nurse, my shrink, my body guard, my diet control, etc.
Seriously. My dog had a way of telling me things. One time I got pretty sick and was coughing and coughing. I hate going to the doctor but my dog kept bugging me. He was being overly pushy, and kept nudging, etc. I knew what he was telling me. He was telling me that I needed to go to the human vet. So I did. It turns out that I had pneumonia and had I waited any longer I would have been in the hospital. I have been going to my doc for years and he knows how much I hate going and he asked me what prompted me to come in. When I told him my dog he said he was glad that Doggie Houser was so intelligent and made me come in or I would have gotten sicker.
This dog was a yellow lab and the most gentle thing in the world. Kids could climb all over him, pull his tail, take food out of his mouth, etc. He was gentle and sweet to everyone unless…you tried to hurt me. One time I was talking him around the neighborhood and my dog’s favorite thing to do in the world was meet new people. But one time we were walking and some guy in a truck with the window halfway down was at a stopsign. He was sitting there a little too long so I thought he might need directions. As we got closer to the car my dog started doign his mean bark letting that guy know not to come near us. My dog NEVER does this. Well, the guy drove away in a hurry. I really believe my dog had a sense about something and probably saved me.
The same thing happened at a popular park once. There were tons of people at the park but when we passed this one guy, my dog went nuts. That guy stayed far away from us.
When I divorced and started dating again, my dog let me know which guys were OK and which ones weren’t. The one guy I dated was a huge jerk but i refused to see it. When he came over, my dog wouldn’t get up to great him. When I was on the phone with the guy, my dog would leave the room. It was crazy. And guess what, my dog was right.
So, I KNOW that dogs have some human traits. They read feelings, they know when things aren’t right. They are wonderful.
Sadly, my handsome man died about 8 months ago and I am not ready for another one but I do share my life with a wonderful cat, by my dog approved of.
D
DrFloyd
Guest
Nazi soldiers? SS guards got along well and had a jolly time on weekends…before they went back to the camps to gas more Jews.I have had close pets. They’re certainly much more than robots in furry covers, but they’re NOT human. And it is dangerous to ascribe human emotions such as love to them. Or human characteristics such as immortality. Some of them eat their own partners or young
Hitler himself had a Jewish doctor who took care of his mother when she was dying. When Hitler took over in Germany, he called the doctor to him, told the doctor what he was going to do to the Jews, and told him “I like you, I want you to leave”.
Hitler displayed love there, yet he – routinely – ordered the deaths of millions.
Are you saying Hitler was not human?
C
ccarter
Guest
My Pit Bull is nearing death so the sorrow is compounded by questions of never seeing him again. I have always believed until recently somewhere I heard or read a Catholic Priest that mentioned there is no Afterlife. So then I have tried to have faith that God will do the best by us if we have attempted to lead a better life. That somehow it will all be ok. I bought 2 books from Amazon.com and read of many references in the Bible that support afterlife. The first one Cold Noses at the Pearly Gates was a blessing to read. So my hope is up.
P
phil8888
Guest
Pets’ souls die with them. unlike human souls which live on. so maybe in heaven God will produce a replica of your pet. but you’ll have perfect happiness anyway. heaven is not the same as earth so it’s not like you’ll need what you have here to be happy.My uncle, who is not Catholic, has told my nephew that the family pets do not go to Heaven when they die. I have lost a lot of very beloved pets in my life, and I always thought I’d be reunited with them personally. But I heard something on EWTN a few weeks ago that made me question this. Is my uncle right? Does anyone know the Church’s teaching on animals when they die?
J
just_me_1
Guest
I’m so sorry to hear that. My 11 year old border collie is going downhill fast. since the middle of march her liver has been failing and she’s getting to the point where I am thinking of putting her down. She’s been my “kid” for so long, we were inseprable. she is irreplaceable. I trained her to do everything, she climbed ladders, rode my horse with me, gathered cattle, caught treats off her nose, she knows her left from right paw, gives high five (and 10), all the usual tricks and things, and I could go on. she has more character and is smarter than any dog I’ve seen. She had all these little quirty things about her that I’ve never seen in another dog… the idea I’m losing her has been killing me too, I’ve been up for hours every night thinking about it. I got a pup a few years ago as she was getting older, hoping it would make this easier. it didn’t. My only comfort is knowing that whatever we need to be happy we will have in heaven. if that’s your pit or my dog or someone’s cat, I have faith they’ll be there, wagging their tails when we arrive. God wouldn’t have given us the joy and partnership a good dog offers (or a good horse, I’m hoping to find a few of them I’ve known tied to the pearly gates too) and not allow us to be reconnected with them at some point. God bless you and your dog. :hug1:
D
DrFloyd
Guest
My sister has rejected Catholicism largely because of the stance that animals don’t have immortal souls – she loves her dog and finds the notion that he doesn’t have a soul to be repugnant. She is now regularly attending a mainline Protestant church.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
Well how is she drawing that conclusion since there is no real teaching on the subject? Been reading back over this thread since you bumped it, and all I can see is “don’t know for sure, won’t know until we get there.” People have opinions and reasons for those opinions, but there are many on the side of “they will be there for us.”
Do Protestants believe that pets have immortal souls??? Somehow I can’t picture it! They’d be giving more power to animals than they do Jesus’ body and blood!!
Do Protestants believe that pets have immortal souls??? Somehow I can’t picture it! They’d be giving more power to animals than they do Jesus’ body and blood!!
H
Havard
Guest
Considering pigs make great pets, and considering I eat them on a semi-regular basis, it’s weird to imagine seeing one of my former meals scurrying around in heaven. “Oh hi, Mr. Wiggles. Thanks for the tasty bacon, sorry I had to end your life a little early for it!” 
S
Solo1959
Guest
I do not know if our pets will be in heaven. I do suspect that they may be with us. There has been much discussion here about animals having immortal souls, etc… But here is why I plan on seeing my pets.
I believe heaven will have flowers and trees and other plants. I have no idea why I believe that and I have no basis for it, but I anticipate seeing grass, and other beautiful “living” things. Plants and flowers, and grass don’t have immortal souls, but I do not question it, I anticipate seeing them.
Pets are even more beautiful and loving than plant life. Why wouldn’t animals be in heaven?
Again, no scripture to back this up, no tradition, just my dream.
I believe heaven will have flowers and trees and other plants. I have no idea why I believe that and I have no basis for it, but I anticipate seeing grass, and other beautiful “living” things. Plants and flowers, and grass don’t have immortal souls, but I do not question it, I anticipate seeing them.
Pets are even more beautiful and loving than plant life. Why wouldn’t animals be in heaven?
Again, no scripture to back this up, no tradition, just my dream.
B
BlueShadow123
Guest
THEY WILL BE THERE. I bet my life on it.
I have talked to acouple psychic people. One of them was a retired priest. He is one of the most religious people I’ve ever met in my life. He has told me many things about my past or people that are in my family and hes always accurate. So accurate actually that he is able to name all the people, what they look like, their birthday, where they live.
Everything. He is very psychic.
He does not know anybody in my family, he has had no history of me, i told him nothing, and yet he still knew it all.
When I first saw him, he told me that my dog, named “zeus” was in the room with us. I asked him what the dog looked like. He said he was a big about 100 pound lab with a white spot on his chest. He said that they were here with us. I asked him what my other past pets were, he named them all and explained what they looked like. He said they were in heaven and watching over me and my family.
Having many conversations with this man about all sorts of things and everything he seems to know, I trust his judgement. I do believe 100% pets go to heaven.
He is not the first psychic to tell me about pets going to heaven either. But thats another matter.
I have talked to acouple psychic people. One of them was a retired priest. He is one of the most religious people I’ve ever met in my life. He has told me many things about my past or people that are in my family and hes always accurate. So accurate actually that he is able to name all the people, what they look like, their birthday, where they live.
Everything. He is very psychic.
He does not know anybody in my family, he has had no history of me, i told him nothing, and yet he still knew it all.
When I first saw him, he told me that my dog, named “zeus” was in the room with us. I asked him what the dog looked like. He said he was a big about 100 pound lab with a white spot on his chest. He said that they were here with us. I asked him what my other past pets were, he named them all and explained what they looked like. He said they were in heaven and watching over me and my family.
Having many conversations with this man about all sorts of things and everything he seems to know, I trust his judgement. I do believe 100% pets go to heaven.
He is not the first psychic to tell me about pets going to heaven either. But thats another matter.
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