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JReducation
Guest
Actually, bishops in Europe and Latin America have reported an increase. Maybe it’s not the pope. Maybe it’s Americans.
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Cojuanco
Guest
My thoughts exactly. We Americans are notoriously resistant to authority, even when it’s for their own objective good.
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McCall1981
Guest
This could certainly be the case in those places, I don’t know. But American Church representatives have been reporting this effect, and apparently it isn’t true. For example Card Dolan:
ncregister.com/blog/joan-desmond/cardinal-dolan-on-the-francis-effect
cbsnews.com/news/cardinal-dolan-the-pope-francis-effect-is-everywhere/
I don’t have links, but I know Archbp. Kurtz has said the same things, as well as other Bishops etc.
Now obviously I don’t expect the Bishops to be counting mass goes and making pie charts and such. But I think 's fair to say that the American Church has been asserting that a “Francis effect” is happening here in America. Perhaps they’re just mistaken, or maybe in their diocese there is an effect that isn’t happening elsewhere or something.
But in Europe or Latin America, they would be reading Card Dolan’s comments and saying, “the US Bishops are reporting increased mass attendence due to the Francis Effect” etc. just like we here are saying about them.
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AnnieHT
Guest
I live in the UK and I’ve gone back to the Catholic Church after many years away because of the influence of Pope Francis!
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ProVobis
Guest
Where were the cheers when the Latin Mass was reinstated and people came back to confession, etc., because of that?Really? Wow! Congratulations!:bounce::yup::clapping:
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MJJean
Guest
Thank you!Really? Wow! Congratulations!
Thing is, the study polled people who identified as catholic, correct? Well, if they’d have asked me I would have not been counted because I am not catholic…yet! I think there are a lot of people like me who simply weren’t asked or weren’t counted.
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GPGT
Guest
Agreed… we’ve learned in 50 years the new ways aint working so it’s time to go back to the ways of old! Psychologists like to tell us how bad it is to scare people into thinking they’re doing wrong in life by sinning but how come 50 years ago when people were told they were doing wrong there were far less psychological problems?
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m134e5
Guest
Before having a parish council willing to assist with recruitment and retention, you need a priest who is willing to lead the parish church’s evangelization efforts.
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JReducation
Guest
Americans have a very arrogant attitude toward religion, not just Catholicism. Americans don’t like anything they can’t control. While Europeans and Latin Americans drift away from the Church because it does not meet their needs, millions of Americans never move toward organized religion of any kind, because it interferes with their “manifest destiny” as they have defined it for themselves. The idea that man’s destiny is defined for him by an eternal God is not democratic.
There are a number of reasons why I don’t trust the study.
First of all, this is an organization that makes money out of being anti-Catholic. This is no secret. It has published all kinds of statistics that stimulates anti-Catholics not only to stand up and cheer, but also open their wallets and donate. God forbid that we kill the golden calf in this country.
Second, there statistics of individual dioceses and national stats. There are dioceses where the numbers of people going to confession and mass has increased during the second half of the year. In my own diocese, we had one parish report 500 confessions during Holy Week, just after Francis’ election.
Yes, we do keep count on the number of people who attend mass, confessions, Holy Communion and other sacraments. That’s law. Every parish has to file a report to the bishop and every bishop files to the Vatican prior to the ad limina vist.
This leads the third issue. How one counts. If one counts only the people registering in parishes, the number probably has not changed much. But if one counts the number of butts in the pews, the number seems to be increasing. We serve in a parish that has seven masses on Sat and Sun. The Church sits 800. At least 775 of those seats are occupied at every mass. The chapel seat 150, about 125 people attend daily mass. There are two priests assigned to hear confessions every Saturday and people still have to be sent away, because the line is too long to get to them all. The Life Teen Ministry has Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament one evening a week which about 150 teens attend and an evening mass attended by about 500 people, teens, young and older sibs and parents.
I know that of the 775 people in the pews, only 300 drop an envelop in the basket. This is what the pastors use to gather their numbers to give to the bishops. This is the only evidence they have.
These numbers are tracked and reported. They have to be, because bishops use these numbers to make personnel assignments, create budgets, decide taxation, buy and sell property, open and close parishes. These decisions are based on number that every pastor must keep track of and report.
The Vatican uses the same numbers to assign bishops and auxiliary bishops, to approve the foundation of new religious communities and the suppression of existing ones, to create new dioceses or suppress others.
When the US pastors report numbers to their bishops they are counting envelopes in the collection, number of baptisms, weddings, funerals, First Holy Communions, Confirmations, etc. The envelop numbs weigh now the averages.
In Europe and Latin America they don’t use the envelope system to count parishioners. They do head counts of people in the pews. We don’t. Maybe we should, instead of relying on registrations, since people no longer bother with territorial parishes. This was more important when most Catholics sent their kids to the local Catholic school. You had to belong to the parish. Today, most Catholic kids attend private schools or public. Most parishes don’t require a registration to receive the sacraments. They require an address within the parish boundaries.
All of these things influence numbers. Often the numbers say one thing and the headcount says another. Depending on how one counts the reports are favorable or not.
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ConfusedTim
Guest
I was at a meeting recently where the priest was talking about confession and he said that through confession he noticed that more and more people are coming back to the church after having been away for years. He didn’t mention time frames so not sure if this was a recent thing or not but I got the impression it was.
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ProVobis
Guest
Br JR, I’m not even sure this is true anymore, unless they expand the parish boundaries to Hispanics, etc.
I agree with you on American arrogance, though.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
This is called an anecdote. And the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.
Others, including CAF’ers can point to opposite anecdotes in their dioceses. 
Anecdotes, unless verified into a trend, tend to cancel each other out.However, like ProVobis, I do agree with you about arrogance. I don’t think it has anything to with “Manifest Destiny,” however, which is most often restricted to a particular historical time period. I think it has to do with the ever-independent American mindset, which has a lot to recommend it in some aspects of national life and personal life, but definitely conflicts with our highly dependent relationship with God and with His Church. Maybe Americans have an especially difficult battle where this is concerned.
Be independent when (legitimately) rendering to Caesar. Be dependent when rendering to God.
(And no, I’m not confused about Jesus’ meaning ^, nor do I advocate a “split” approach to moral issues. Quite the opposite, actually.)
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Tampa_Dave
Guest
Being honest, Pope Francis has had no significant effect upon my life as a Catholic, unlike Pope John Paul II. Given the media’s quickness to report Pope Francis’ statements out of context, however, I find myself having to defend his views more so than Pope Benedict XVI.
Pope Francis is my Pope and I will obey him as I did his predecessors. God bless Pope Francis.
Pope Francis is my Pope and I will obey him as I did his predecessors. God bless Pope Francis.
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livingwordunity
Guest
It’s too early to judge. Give it enough time like at least 10 years, and we’ll see. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
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JReducation
Guest
Call it anything you want. We who work with chanceries record these numbers as facts, not anecdotes. I mention this particular parish, because I was struck by the number when it came past my desk, not because it was the only parish that reported an increase in confessions.This is called an anecdote. And the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.
Now see, the particular group of CAFers to whom you’re referring is the last group of people whom I would trust with such reports. Too many of them fall under St. Teresa of Avila’s label of “sour saints”. They’re good people. I have no doubt about that. But their glass is always half empty, never half full.
This is precisely what Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis have fought against . . . leading others into sadness, despair, anger and fear rather than into the hope that comes from knowing that God is always in control and is never far.
My advice to you and everyone on here is to take those people’s reports with an understanding that the glass may be half full. These folks simply have not looked toward the bottom of the glass to see that there is something there.
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Cider
Guest
All this focus on Pope Francis instead of the Churches universal truth makes me really uncomfortable. It’s risen to the level of a cult of personality for some people IMO. Popes serve the Church for a very short time. I think we would be better served focusing on the truth of the Churches teachings and salvation in Jesus Christ instead of how popular the Pope is.
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Tsuwano
Guest
Well, of course we should focus on the teachings of the Church and the salvation the Lord offers us, but this is not to say that the Pope is not important or that his popularity cannot serve to bring people closer to the truth the Church holds so dearly. The Holy Father himself continuously points to the Lord and the path the Lord has called us to follow and this is part of why he is so popular. I think the Pope’s popularity is a gift to the Church and a sign that there is a great need among people for the message of mercy the Holy Father has been so skilled in announcing.
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McCall1981
Guest
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ProVobis
Guest
Me as well. But this is the 7th Pope I’ve lived through and certain things don’t change, especially in the first few months of each Papacy, where the effects of a new Papacy are tested. Much of the talk is among non-Catholics as well, if not mostly. Bottom line is what you correctly point out or imply, that it is still God’s church and our salvation is what’s tantamount. I’ll certainly miss the EF if it’s taken away again, but our comfort level in the secular world is secondary.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I’ll call reports from both sides anecdotal until I see trends. I certainly don’t distrust your word, in fact I appreciate it, but neither do I distrust the words of others on the ground.
Again, they cancel each other out…I believe that you don’t know to which CAF’ers I’m referring, because I haven’t named them, nor do I believe they identify as a “group.” I wouldn’t want to judge my fellow Catholics, so I tend to take the words of all others, including yours, at face value, because we are told to so as an aspect of charity.
Have a blessed day, Brother.
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