Pew Study: Choosing a New Church or House of Worship

[rcwitness]

But is it really your nearest parish? And I’m not asking to be glib, my house growing up was more or less equidistant between two parishes. We went to one because it had the school we were attending, but we very well may have been attending the wrong one, at least geographically speaking.

And I wasn’t trying to be a smart ***. But my point was that your nearest parish priest/rectory would be able to give you that answer. I don’t know why it would be difficult.

 

[Padres1969]

And I wasn’t trying to be a smart ***. But my point was that your nearest parish priest/rectory would be able to give you that answer. I don’t know why it would be difficult.

Actually since I asked the question I discovered my childhood diocese has a handy map of the parish boundaries. Assuming you choose to acknowledge them. Turns out I grew up where three parishes’ boundaries came together. And I did indeed grow up going to the “wrong” parish .

 

[rcwitness]

Actually since I asked the question I discovered my childhood diocese has a handy map of the parish boundaries. Assuming you choose to acknowledge them. Turns out I grew up where three parishes’ boundaries came together. And I did indeed grow up going to the “wrong” parish .

…
That’s what went wrong!

 

[Padres1969]

…
That’s what went wrong!

Well to be fair I’m not sure my family even knew one of the parishes existed.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Wouldn’t it be easy to go to the nearest parish and ask?

I came across a situation where I needed to know someone’s formal parish and I just called the Archdiocese and gave them the address. They got into their software and told me right away. I don’t know if each parish has the same software though.

I do know that parish boundaries change on a regular basis.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I came across a situation where I needed to know someone’s formal parish and I just called the Archdiocese and gave them the address. They got into their software and told me right away. I don’t know if each parish has the same software though.

I do know that parish boundaries change on a regular basis.

Were you needing to know someone’s parish in the Roman rite for a situation you were encountering or do Episcopal dioceses have parish boundaries too?

I figured mine was the one just a half mi away since the next closest is 5 miles. But since I knew a person can not always go by distance in these cases, I emailed the diocese with an address and after a few days I received a reply and it was as I had imagined. But I was surprised when I later inquired about a couple of family members in my same county and diocese and their territorial parishes were not at all what I’d have expected. In fact for one it is the same parish as mine although she lives 5 miles from me and nearer to a couple of other parishes. And my sister also has a couple of closer parishes than the one turning out to be her territorial.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Were you needing to know someone’s parish in the Roman rite for a situation you were encountering or do Episcopal dioceses have parish boundaries too?

This particular quest was for a Roman Catholic parish boundary. Episcopal dioceses in the US are not officially geographical, but every so often I get asked which parish I live in.

The Church of England, which is the state church, is geographical. The vicar of the parish is responsible for all baptisms, weddings, funerals within her/his geographical boundaries. Of course fewer people are churchgoers these days, or even Christian, but they are still bound to keep the registry.

 

[Phemie]

Interesting, but does the RCC make it easy to search which parish a person is “supposed” to belong to geographically?

Usually in a town with multiple parishes the parish office would know what their boundaries are. It becomes really important with marriages since for validity a marriage must be celebrated in one’s own parish or that of the spouse. The priest will usually do the necessary paperwork to ensure that everything is on the up and up.

To marry in another parish it usually goes like this: Your Pastor sends a request for permission to marry in another parish to the Bishop; if bishop grants permission he forwards the papers to the priest who will be celebrating the wedding.

If it’s in another diocese the papers are sent by the Pastor → Diocesan Bishop A → Diocesan Bishop B → Priest Celebrant → Diocesan Bishop B.

It’s IMPORTANT to know your parish boundaries but most people don’t realize it because the paperwork is usually done without their knowledge.

I didn’t realize any of this until I saw a notation of baptism where the priest had recorded a Baptism that had been conferred outside the parish and noted “without permission!” That’s when I started to read Canon Law on the topic of Parishes and Pastors. I’d had 2 of my children baptized outside our parish without first asking for permission. With Baptism it’s a matter of leicity, but with Marriage it’s a matter of validity.

 

[Padres1969]

Usually in a town with multiple parishes the parish office would know what their boundaries are. It becomes really important with marriages since for validity a marriage must be celebrated in one’s own parish or that of the spouse. The priest will usually do the necessary paperwork to ensure that everything is on the up and up.

To marry in another parish it usually goes like this: Your Pastor sends a request for permission to marry in another parish to the Bishop; if bishop grants permission he forwards the papers to the priest who will be celebrating the wedding.

If it’s in another diocese the papers are sent by the Pastor → Diocesan Bishop A → Diocesan Bishop B → Priest Celebrant → Diocesan Bishop B.

It’s IMPORTANT to know your parish boundaries but most people don’t realize it because the paperwork is usually done without their knowledge.

I didn’t realize any of this until I saw a notation of baptism where the priest had recorded a Baptism that had been conferred outside the parish and noted “without permission!” That’s when I started to read Canon Law on the topic of Parishes and Pastors. I’d had 2 of my children baptized outside our parish without first asking for permission. With Baptism it’s a matter of leicity, but with Marriage it’s a matter of validity.

So what you’re saying is that a Catholic marriage is invalid if the couple marries in the parish one of the parties attends if it’s not the parish they’re supposed to be attending?

 

[Usige]

The study is actually a positive one. The questions are: What do you look for when you are seeking a church community? Name the things that are most important to you.

And the study named all the things that are most important to people:

Sermons
Being welcomed
Location of the church
Worship style
Education for children - Christian ed
Knowing others in the congregation
Volunteer opportunities

None of that is surprising to me. It rings true with all my experiences of people church shopping.

How is that negative?

I think the negative is that it seems to be about me; What do I get out of it?

I am not terribly suprised, but it does sadden me that church and worship has become a commodity to be shopped for. Instead of conforming ourselves to a faith we seek out what makes us feel good or things that conform to us. “I don’t like X so I’ll shop around until I find a truth that matches what I believe.” It means conversion is driven by the consumer towards the curch and not vice versa. This means churches need to figure out how to “market” to the latest trends if they want to maintain “market share”.

This isn’t a new phenomenon, but I do think it has become more prevalent as we have moved to a pluralistic society. When I was growing up we had 1 Presbyterian church, 1 Baptist, 1 Methodist, 2 Lutheran (LCMS and “other”), 1 Catholic and 1 Episcopalian. You’d occasionally see people move, but barring some great change you went to the church you belonged too.

The rise of the nondenominational church has lead to a certain type of consumeristic outlook on worship that seems less focused on the message and more focused on the delivery. I remember asking a friend that went to a nondenominational church about what defines their beliefs and she said it depended on the church board. If you wanted change you either tried to take over the board or leave and start a new church. I think that thinking has largely been foreign to Catholics until the recent past.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think the negative is that it seems to be about me; What do I get out of it?

I am not terribly suprised, but it does sadden me that church and worship has become a commodity to be shopped for. Instead of conforming ourselves to a faith we seek out what makes us feel good or things that conform to us. “I don’t like X so I’ll shop around until I find a truth that matches what I believe.” It means conversion is driven by the consumer towards the curch and not vice versa. This means churches need to figure out how to “market” to the latest trends if they want to maintain “market share”.

This isn’t a new phenomenon, but I do think it has become more prevalent as we have moved to a pluralistic society. When I was growing up we had 1 Presbyterian church, 1 Baptist, 1 Methodist, 2 Lutheran (LCMS and “other”), 1 Catholic and 1 Episcopalian. You’d occasionally see people move, but barring some great change you went to the church you belonged too.

The rise of the nondenominational church has lead to a certain type of consumeristic outlook on worship that seems less focused on the message and more focused on the delivery. I remember asking a friend that went to a nondenominational church about what defines their beliefs and she said it depended on the church board. If you wanted change you either tried to take over the board or leave and start a new church. I think that thinking has largely been foreign to Catholics until the recent past.

Well said! Years ago a girl,Imworked with mentioned that she and her family had been church hopping for years because that had yet to find a preacher that didn’t put them to sleep with boring sermons! How sad but reflective of the “entertainment mentality” of our culture.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Usually in a town with multiple parishes the parish office would know what their boundaries are. It becomes really important with marriages since for validity a marriage must be celebrated in one’s own parish or that of the spouse. The priest will usually do the necessary paperwork to ensure that everything is on the up and up.

To marry in another parish it usually goes like this: Your Pastor sends a request for permission to marry in another parish to the Bishop; if bishop grants permission he forwards the papers to the priest who will be celebrating the wedding.

If it’s in another diocese the papers are sent by the Pastor → Diocesan Bishop A → Diocesan Bishop B → Priest Celebrant → Diocesan Bishop B.

It’s IMPORTANT to know your parish boundaries but most people don’t realize it because the paperwork is usually done without their knowledge.

I didn’t realize any of this until I saw a notation of baptism where the priest had recorded a Baptism that had been conferred outside the parish and noted “without permission!” That’s when I started to read Canon Law on the topic of Parishes and Pastors. I’d had 2 of my children baptized outside our parish without first asking for permission. With Baptism it’s a matter of leicity, but with Marriage it’s a matter of validity.

I don’t want to derail ComplineSanFran’s thread long but just to quickly ask…

By “pastor” are you referring to the canonical territorial parish’s priest?

And why would the Baptism without permission if it’s a matter of liceity be valid but the marriage not be valid? EWTN says here that liceity pertains to lawfullness. Or if the marriage would be valid, what’s the point in getting permission from the territorial pastor?

ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=343650&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

 

[Reuben_J]

In my Episcopal church parish, we greet people at the door, ask them if they are visiting, and then try to introduce them to someone right away who will be there to answer any questions. After the Liturgy ends, we bring out the food and people will stay for at least half an hour, socializing as well as gathering for discussions or prayer groups. Hospitality is extremely important. Visitors are embraced and welcomed.

Really nice parish you have there. Helpful and friendly greeters. And the food. Wow.

Those things don’t work in a Catholic church. The regulars would rather they be left alone as they hurry to fight for the best pew. If you should serve food, they would not come, they are hurrying to get out of the church’s carpark.

We sure can learn a lot from you guys on hospitality. It would be especially helpful for newcomers and visitors.

 

[Reuben_J]

My experience has been that when I go to a Catholic church, I see someone at the doors of the church who says ‘hello’ and hands me a program. That is usually the last time a person will speak to me (no, I take that back. People will say something during the Peace.) When Mass ends, people are out of there, lickety-split.

I agree with this.

It is indeed a big contrast with a Protestant church that I had the pleasure to come.

Some years back, we were attending a concert by Bob Fit, a Protestant worship leader. We had heard about him and thus interested to see him in person and bought our tickets. However, it was held at a church.

At the entrance we were made to write our particulars and were guided to our seats. They were very nice.

A few days later I started receiving phone calls from them inviting me to come for their service. I felt a bit guilty knowing that I would not come but nevertheless had attended the concert. I kind of feeling indebted to them. I replied politely that I am Catholic and may not have the time to come. There were more phone calls later and it kept on for a few weeks until eventually they stopped ringing.

Yes, they kept your number and enthusiastically follow up on you.

It’s just different. Not every congregation fits into a stereotype, but on the whole, Catholic churches are not as focused in welcoming the stranger, as it were.

They never was. There is no focus in welcoming strangers or anybody, not if some eager priests/officials of the church make the initiative. Catholics who come for the mass are only focusing on one thing – to fulfill their obligation in worship. One has the feeling that is supposed to be understood and nobody would want to be disturbed unnecessarily.

In the process, the newcomers and strangers would surely not well serve. However, they can look for the priest after the mass who normally would be always nice to them.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sermons/homilies definitely make a difference to me. Even among Catholic churches, I would drive further if the homilies are better at one. Yet location does matter to me somewhat too simply as a matter of convenience for me and my vehicle. The nearest Catholic parish to me is a half mi. It is considered my geographical parish. But I would definitely drive 5 miles to another. I’ve driven 7 miles to one. Due to the priest(s), the atmosphere, the homilies and so forth. I’d drive further if need be.

This is really fantastic. I would like to salute you for your seriousness, and enthusiasm in following the mass. In all my life, I have never met a Catholic who would do this – to drive the extra mile just because there is a good speaker celebrating the mass.

In fact on the contrary is true. There are parishioners who fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to the next parish because their own parish priest always gave unusually very long homily. They need the time for some errands.

In fact the homily is based on the three readings, which the parishioners should already read the night before the mass, though admittedly not many do that. They know the content and for fifteen minutes of the homily, nothing much can be summarized from the passages of the readings. Perhaps this is the reason why most Catholics do not really bother with the quality of the homily knowing it to be something factual. Of course, it would be wonderful if the priest is funny and can make you laugh. Otherwise, probably much that was said in the homily, very few people remember.

So homily is just a part of the mass. You spend too long on it, then the mass would last longer. In a big congregation, something between one to one and quarter hour long mass would be just nice. Anything longer than that would cause practical problem, like parking for the next mass and people would start becoming fidgety.

For really good comprehensive preaching and teaching, Catholics would not get that from the mass though of course there is no denying its value, but for the former they would go for seminars, retreats and those prayer gathering like the prayer meetings where preaching is the ‘main event’.

The recent trend of priesthood training however, has taken cognizance of the weakness of priest homilies. Those young priests that I talked to were telling us that they learned public speaking in the seminary. Wow, so they see the need for selling and marketing as well.

 

[Phemie]

Really nice parish you have there. Helpful and friendly greeters. And the food. Wow.

Those things don’t work in a Catholic church. The regulars would rather they be left alone as they hurry to fight for the best pew. If you should serve food, they would not come, they are hurrying to get out of the church’s carpark.

We sure can learn a lot from you guys on hospitality. It would be especially helpful for newcomers and visitors.

That depends on the parish. While none were great at ‘greeting’ before Mass, certainly nobody around to ask if you were new or anything like that, I was in two small parishes that had coffee after Sunday Mass every week. Lots of people stayed behind to partake, and usually a newcomer would be made to feel very welcome.

In my present parish the K of C have coffee on the first Sunday of the month. It means having to cross the parking lot to go to their hall. Most people don’t make it past their car so if there were 150 people at Mass you might see 10% go to the hall. OTOH, a few times they held it in our meeting room at the back of the church. Then it was much better attended. “Location, location, location” applies to more than real estate sales and businesses.

The ladies have started holding a coffee hour on the 3rd Sunday of each month in our meeting room. I don’t usually attend Mass on Sunday so I don’t really know how this is going – although in our parish summer is not a good time to judge anything since a large number of our members are away.

 

[Reuben_J]

That depends on the parish. While none were great at ‘greeting’ before Mass, certainly nobody around to ask if you were new or anything like that, I was in two small parishes that had coffee after Sunday Mass every week. Lots of people stayed behind to partake, and usually a newcomer would be made to feel very welcome.

In my present parish the K of C have coffee on the first Sunday of the month. It means having to cross the parking lot to go to their hall. Most people don’t make it past their car so if there were 150 people at Mass you might see 10% go to the hall. OTOH, a few times they held it in our meeting room at the back of the church. Then it was much better attended. “Location, location, location” applies to more than real estate sales and businesses.

The ladies have started holding a coffee hour on the 3rd Sunday of each month in our meeting room. I don’t usually attend Mass on Sunday so I don’t really know how this is going – although in our parish summer is not a good time to judge anything since a large number of our members are away.

Lovely. It would be great if more parishes are like that.

Guess it really depends on the parish, parish size and place. And people make things happen.

The other smaller parish that I sometimes went to for some reasons, though we would always go to the cathedral, I am pretty much involved in the liturgy there, this parish would ask people who came for the first time to stand and tbey willbe given souvenirs. That was rather thoughtful.

 

[rcwitness]

The other smaller parish that I sometimes went to for some reasons, though we would always go to the cathedral, I am pretty much involved in the liturgy there, this parish would ask people who came for the first time to stand and tbey willbe given souvenirs. That was rather thoughtful.

That’s a good idea. A gift is blessed, and makes an impression with a means to address a newcomer.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Another regular ‘problem’ with these kind of survey questions is that what people say they want and what people actually want are vastly at odds. When surveyed, people will say they are sick of airbrushed, photo shopped images and advertisements; when auditing consumer spending and purchasing data, no one buys ‘natural’ advertising, while ‘fake’ sells by a margin of 1000:1

 

[exnihilo]

Pew Research released a new study today: ‘Choosing a New Church or House of Worship’

So how do people choose a new church? Top factors: preaching, welcoming, and style of worship.

I’ve read over the years here on CAF that many people who visit Roman Catholic services are not always greeted and or made to feel welcome. That seems to make a difference, according to Pew. Different denominations have different worship styles and it appears that makes a difference too. And of course preaching. I don’t think I was surprised by these results, but it is good to see my experiences confirmed.

These results are not surprising. These results are the result of the Reformation. Most people who have an interest in Christian religion look at the Faith as following Protestant doctrine and practice. Protestant doctrine does not center on a sacrifice. It tends to be more about learning through sermons. Protestant practice tends to have a more missionary approach where you are always trying to bring people to church. And here church can not just mean the worship service but any church activity. Of course the Catholic Church was and is the greatest missionary Church. But Protestantism was founded on converting Christians to a particular denomination. In modern times this has taken the form of getting people to participate with little to no demands made on them. The Catholic Church is at a disadvantage here in merely human terms since, as I’m sure most would agree, the Catholic Church is pretty clear on having rules and making demands on the Christian.

This just confirms that the American idea of Christianity is Protestant. The Catholic Church can try to become more Protestant but then She won’t be the Catholic Church.

See, I actually liked going to Catholic churches after growing up a “none” and having people mostly smile at you or ignore you/go about their own business. Maybe say “hello” if they knew you from somewhere else. I felt smothered and embarrassed if people, especially strangers, lavished attention on me when I went to a new church (and I tried many.) But I liked to try it out and just watch first so I could learn what was going on. I disliked being 'put on the spot."

Not everyone wants to be made to feel welcome. Some people want to encounter God privately for various reasons. If the Catholic Church is true then being able to go into a church and encounter the presence of Jesus in a real way is a very great and unique thing.

So how do you think that ‘angel unaware’ in your midst feels when you only greet her or him when it’s ‘appropriate’?

I think we’re forgetting the Gospel imperative here, to ‘welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you’, to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked and visit the sick. Worship, yes, but if we do that only and ignore Christ the stranger sitting right next to us, I think something is terribly wrong.

In the early Church they excluded those not initiated from the Mysteries. Your question seems to suggest the Mass should be more welcoming to those not initiated. While I think the uninitiated can be admitted to the Mass I don’t think it must be allowed and done so in a way that focuses on welcoming since the early Church didn’t approach it that way.