Philly Abortion Doctor Gosnell May Face Death

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Jurisdiction is irrelevant.
Jurisdiction is certainly relevant to prosecution and the severity of the sentence.
The severity of the sentence must be determined by the severity of the crime and severity does not vary from one jurisdiction to the next or from one age to the next.
I agree that Capital Murder is the most severe crime, and merits the most severe sentence, but that could be anything from the Death Penalty, to Life without Parole to Life with Parole to even 25 Years to Life. The severity of the punishment, of course, does very from one age to another.
This is why it must be true that if execution was a just punishment in the past it must be equally just today since the severity of murder surely cannot change with time. Clearly circumstances can differ from one crime to the next but murder in the fifth century was exactly as severe a crime as murder today.
No one disagrees with that. It’s the punishment for that severe crime that varies, and the purpose of the punishment has changed as well.
 
Edit to my post #82:

The following sentence: “There is Church teaching that says the argument I see most often is clearly incorrect?” is ambiguous and not what I meant to say. It should be:

“There is Church teaching that states that the argument I see most often isn’t the argument I see most often?”

I apologize for the error.
 
Really? :hmmm: There is Church teaching that says the argument I see most often is clearly incorrect? I wasn’t aware the Church even knew what argument I have seen most often. Wow. How could the claim that the argument I see used most often being a violation of Universal Law be incorrect? I’m the one seeing the argument, not the Magisterium. Not the Vatican. Just me.
You explained what the argument was. That particular argument is incorrect based on what the Church has traditionally taught.
When you respond inside a quote you not only change my words, but when I try to reply all I get is what appears outside the quote, which is nothing. Please don’t change my quotes. If you wish to respond to something I have said, please have the courtesy to quote what I have stated and then respond. It shouldn’t be up to me to clean up the quote you have changed so that I can respond to the points you have made.
I didn’t change any of your words. Next time try cut and paste.

Ender
 
Are the definitions of “just sentence” and “merciful sentence” your personal definitions?
No, I look to Aquinas to explain them:

*We speak of merit and demerit, in relation to retribution, rendered according to justice. Now, retribution according to justice is rendered to a man, by reason of his having done something to another’s advantage or hurt. *

Punishment is proportionate to sin in point of severity, both in Divine and in human judgments.

That should sufficiently explain the nature of a just sentence, as for mercy there is this:

Mercy and clemency concur in this, that both shun and recoil from another’s unhappiness, but in different ways. For it belongs to mercy [Cf.30, 1] to relieve another’s unhappiness by a beneficent action, while it belongs to clemency to mitigate another’s unhappiness by the cessation of punishment.

In either case, there can really be no argument that a merciful punishment is as severe as the just punishment - whatever the punishment is - otherwise how could it be considered merciful? Logically these concepts present no problems, nor are they particularly difficult to comprehend. They do, of course, make it difficult to maintain your position.

Ender
 
Jurisdiction IS relevant in a real-life implementation of a ban on abortion, which perforce would have to be done on a state-by-state basis, consonant with the laws of each state.
But jurisdiction is not relevant to the argument being made about the nature of punishment.
  • Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. *(2266)
The gravity of the crime of murder does not change from one jurisdiction - or one time - to another, therefore the severity of the punishment cannot change from one time or place to another and still remain just (by satisfying the requirement of 2266).

Ender
 
Jurisdiction is certainly relevant to prosecution and the severity of the sentence.
The discussion is not about whether or not a criminal may receive a sentence of varying severity depending on where he is tried and sentenced. This is a discussion about the nature of punishment and what the proper punishment (for murder) ought to be, which is not at all dependent on what a particular State may allow.
I agree that Capital Murder is the most severe crime, and merits the most severe sentence, but that could be anything from the Death Penalty, to Life without Parole to Life with Parole to even 25 Years to Life. The severity of the punishment, of course, does very from one age to another.
Yes, things in the real world change, but we are discussing things as they ought to be, not as they are. The severity of murder does not change from one age to another. If a particular punishment for murder was just in any age then it is just in every age.
No one disagrees with that. It’s the punishment for that severe crime that varies, and the purpose of the punishment has changed as well.
According to Church teaching the purpose of punishment has not changed. Support this claim by citing a Church document that makes this claim or that shows how it has changed. This is simply incorrect. The primary objective of punishment is what it has always been: retribution … just as it says in 2266.

Ender
 
You explained what the argument was. That particular argument is incorrect based on what the Church has traditionally taught.
I didn’t change any of your words. Next time try cut and paste.

Ender
Please see post #87. The Church has NEVER stated that my claim that the argument I have heard most often is incorrect. Why would she? It’s my claim and it’s my experience.

Why don’t you use the function properly? It’s forum decorum and shows charity.

When you go inside someone else’s quote and add words, you are changing the words in that quote which can result in them being taken out of context. It’s not charitable.
 
The discussion is not about whether or not a criminal may receive a sentence of varying severity depending on where he is tried and sentenced. This is a discussion about the nature of punishment and what the proper punishment (for murder) ought to be, which is not at all dependent on what a particular State may allow.

Yes, things in the real world change, but we are discussing things as they ought to be, not as they are. The severity of murder does not change from one age to another. If a particular punishment for murder was just in any age then it is just in every age.

According to Church teaching the purpose of punishment has not changed. Support this claim by citing a Church document that makes this claim or that shows how it has changed. This is simply incorrect. The primary objective of punishment is what it has always been: retribution … just as it says in 2266.

Ender
It has never been just for humans to give and carry out the death penalty on other humans.
 
No, I look to Aquinas to explain them:

We speak of merit and demerit, in relation to retribution, rendered according to justice. Now, retribution according to justice is rendered to a man, by reason of his having done something to another’s advantage or hurt.

Punishment is proportionate to sin in point of severity, both in Divine and in human judgments.

That should sufficiently explain the nature of a just sentence,
No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but I don’t understand. A reference to Aquinas’ work would be nice and appreciated; like a link or the name of a book or something. I also don’t see a reference to punishment for a violation of criminal law. I also suspect that what you have stated is not actually quoted, at least not properly, because you are using bits and pieces of Aquinas’ reasoning. I’m not saying this to be uncharitable; I’m saying this because that possibility exists.
as for mercy there is this:
*Mercy and clemency concur in this, that both shun and recoil from another’s unhappiness, but in different ways. *For it belongs to mercy [Cf.30, 1] to relieve another’s unhappiness by a beneficent action, while it belongs to clemency to mitigate another’s unhappiness by the cessation of punishment.
Nope, doesn’t explain it either. I do see the word “punishment” being used but I don’t see it specifically referring to punishment because of a violation of criminal law. And again, I suspect what you have stated is not quoted because you are using bits and pieces of Aquinas’ reasoning and/or taking something he said out of context. I noticed you used “Cf.30, 1” without any explanation as to what this means. Is it referring to a footnote? From where? You cite no source. Again I apologize, but I do not understand.
In either case, there can really be no argument that a merciful punishment is as severe as the just punishment - whatever the punishment is - otherwise how could it be considered merciful? Logically these concepts present no problems, nor are they particularly difficult to comprehend. They do, of course, make it difficult to maintain your position.
Perhaps you are correct if you are using definitions that Aquinas provided, but Aquinas is not the only philosopher/theologian/Church father. Even if he is a saint he was not infallible when he lived as a mortal human being on earth. He may have been wrong.

Other definitions of “just” and “merciful” could be used. Relying on only those provided by Aquinas is not really sufficient IMHO. There is always room for debate and discussion when it comes to topics like the topic of this thread. There can always be an argument. Issues like the one presented in this thread are not cut and dried, although the Church has stated that the death penalty is wrong except when it is the only way to keep the public safe. And I feel much more secure about the Church’s position as stated in the CCC than I feel when reading something by Aquinas. Or you (again, I’m not trying to be uncharitable; I just feel that the Church has greater authority).

My position (what I believe you are responding to here; please correct me if I have misread your post (as simply stating my “position” is “difficult to maintain” without defining it is rather confusing)) is that the claim I have heard most often is that abortion is a violation of Universal Law. I didn’t state that I agree with the argument that abortion is a violation of Universal Law. I only stated that I have heard that argument most often. How you get from my claim to my agreeing with the argument I have heard most often appears to me to be a tangled mass of illogical reasoning. Let me try to present it another way:

(1) I’ve heard that Mr. Jones down the street is a child molester.
(2) Ergo, Mr. Jones is a child molester.

See the problem?

If you read my last post you will see that I have now stated something I agree with - not agreeing with a possibility, but a real claim. Human beings killing people via the death penalty has never been just. It is not our right to determine when a human being should die. Abortion is wrong, euthanasia is wrong, capital punishment (with the exception of it being the only way to protect the public) is wrong.

It always has been and it always will be. It shows us attempting to place ourselves on the throne of God. God and only God has the right to determine when a person will die, not abortionists, not those who perform euthanasia, and not those who kill via the death penalty (with the exception noted above). Our lives do not belong to us and certainly others’ lives do not belong to us!!

We are not the Fates and we are not God. Attempting to usurp His position is clearly wrong.

I disagree with the argument you present (and which Aquinas may have presented. ** A just punishment is a merciful punishment.** If you are using your argument to defend capital punishment I wonder why you don’t say that an abortionist should be torn apart as he tore apart unborn children, without anaesthetic. In the case that is being discussed in this thread (which involved late-term abortions in which the child was born alive and and then had his/her spine broken) the just punishment (according to what I believe you are using as an argument) would simply be “an eye for an eye.” The abortionist should have his spine snapped and then left to die.

Is this what you are saying should happen to the abortionist?
 
The discussion is not about whether or not a criminal may receive a sentence of varying severity depending on where he is tried and sentenced. This is a discussion about the nature of punishment and what the proper punishment (for murder) ought to be, which is not at all dependent on what a particular State may allow.
It is absolutely about what a particular State may allow. What “it ought to be” is wholly up to those States, not what some members of a particular religion may think “it ought to be.”
Yes, things in the real world change, but we are discussing things as they ought to be, not as they are.
You don’t seem to understand that “ought to be” is relative, dependent on the jurisdiction.
The severity of murder does not change from one age to another. If a particular punishment for murder was just in any age then it is just in every age.
The severity of the charge doesn’t change, yes, but what the consequences of that crime shall be for the perpetrator can change. And, by the way, the Church does recognize that there are circumstances where the death penalty may be imposed.
According to Church teaching the purpose of punishment has not changed. Support this claim by citing a Church document that makes this claim or that shows how it has changed. This is simply incorrect. The primary objective of punishment is what it has always been: retribution … just as it says in 2266.
Depriving a man or woman of their freedom for the rest of their lives is strong retribution for that crime. We need not become howlers for the rope or the guillotine.
 
The discussion is not about whether or not a criminal may receive a sentence of varying severity depending on where he is tried and sentenced. This is a discussion about the nature of punishment and what the proper punishment (for murder) ought to be, which is not at all dependent on what a particular State may allow.

Yes, things in the real world change, but we are discussing things as they ought to be, not as they are. The severity of murder does not change from one age to another. If a particular punishment for murder was just in any age then it is just in every age.

According to Church teaching the purpose of punishment has not changed. Support this claim by citing a Church document that makes this claim or that shows how it has changed. This is simply incorrect. The primary objective of punishment is what it has always been: retribution … just as it says in 2266.Ender
It’s not quite that cut-and-dried. Historically, in less developed societies, material compensation, corporal punishment, shunning or banishment were often all the penalty murder received.

The noumenal world of things “as they ought to be” is an important thing to keep our moral eye fixed upon, but the phenomenal world of states and jurisdictions and differing laws isn’t going to just dry up and blow away, either.

If we really and truly abolish abortion, we have to accept that the penalty is going to vary from place to place, to some extent and for some amount of time at least. The vehicles which will implement that abolition are necessary goods and assets in and of themselves, even with all the undesirable baggage they carry.

There is considerable room for doubt in your analysis of that passage in the CCC. It also says “The efforts of the state…correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good.” “Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.”
 
In my state at least, women, including in a few notorious cases, have been found guilty of murder when they’ve hired a hitman, and received a more severe sentence than the “instrument” they used to kill their husbands with.
Just as in your discussion with Ender, local laws and customs aren’t the point of the conversation here. Just as in your discussion with Ender, I’m discussing what ought to be, not what is.

Take these two situations:


  1. *]An emotionally abused woman (no physical abuse) is threatened by her husband with divorce, destitution, etc if she leaves him. Fearing for her own well being, she hires a man to kill her husband.
    *]A housewife, bored of her marriage, wants to marry the new love of her life. But to divorce her husband would leave her without any income or assets. In order to inherit all her husband’s assets, she hires a man to kill her husband.

    Is the woman in #1 just as guilty as the hitman? Now, let’s phrase this in terms of abortion:

    1. *]A married woman has an affair and becomes pregnant. Fearing that her pregnancy would expose her infidelity, she hires an abortionist to destroy her unborn child.
      *]A married woman, with no desire to have children, conceives a child with her husband. Wanting no change in her lifestyle, she hires an abortionist to destroy her unborn child.

      Now, is the woman in #1 just as guilty as the abortionist?

      The common factor here is the hitman/abortionist. He is the only one in both cases to have full knowledge and full consent of the will. I’m not saying the woman cannot be guilty, but that in both cases the hitman has no mitigating circumstances. In all cases, the hitman is certainly guilty of murder. In some cases, the woman is not.
      Unless mitigating circumstances clearly apply, I’d put the woman away, just as with the abortionist.
      To that extent, we agree. However, I think that abortion, as it is justified by the pro-abortion crowd, is mostly about the scared, desperate woman. That’s why they push for government funding. It is the poor, overwhelmed, distraught woman that needs government assistance. It isn’t about the well-to-do housewife that doesn’t want to change her life. The abortion industry needs to claim women like #1 in order to justify their existence. If it was only about #2, it would be (rightly) viewed as selfish and indulgent.
 
It is absolutely about what a particular State may allow. What “it ought to be” is wholly up to those States, not what some members of a particular religion may think “it ought to be.”
No, it isn’t up to a particular State. And you are right, it isn’t up to the members of a particular religion. It is up to God.
You don’t seem to understand that “ought to be” is relative, dependent on the jurisdiction.
You don’t seem to understand that “ought to be” is relative to God’s will, not the jurisdiction. This relativism that you frequently espouse is not couched in truth (or Truth). You, like Beau, see things through your legal filter. You view all law as whatever the state decides, and do not hold that law to a higher standard. Were a state to pass a law that said all children with red hair be branded and sold into slavery, I doubt you would say that “ought to be” dependent upon the jurisdiction. Why then should you think so with regard to capital punishment?

The argument here isn’t about the legal constraints on capital punishment. Or even what the constraints ought to be within our legal framework. It is about what the constraints ought to be within the universal framework of God’s will.
 
To that extent, we agree. However, I think that abortion, as it is justified by the pro-abortion crowd, is mostly about the scared, desperate woman. That’s why they push for government funding. It is the poor, overwhelmed, distraught woman that needs government assistance. It isn’t about the well-to-do housewife that doesn’t want to change her life. The abortion industry needs to claim women like #1 in order to justify their existence. If it was only about #2, it would be (rightly) viewed as selfish and indulgent.

True enough. But I also think that the whole idea of putting away well-to-do mothers-to-be–ones who maybe are the spouses of men who may well vote GOP and help bankroll GOP campaigns–is a big part of the reason most GOP politicians aren’t really serious about ending abortion.

When you think about it, the rich woman with no pressure on her, who merely wants to avoid motherhood, is committing the more egregious crime.
 
It has never been just for humans to give and carry out the death penalty on other humans.
This is directly contrary to what the Church has taught in the past and what she teaches today. I provided one quote to that effect; would more citations make a difference? I have plenty to choose from including Aquinas, Augustine, the Early Fathers, five catechisms, and at least a half dozen papal documents. Are you unaware that has always supported the right of States to employ capital punishment?

Ender
 
Since I started this thread, I’ll add an observation now.

Often, over the past twenty years, I’ve heard endless objections
to pro-life being as being pro-death penalty. I’ve never met one of
those death-dealing pro-lifers and I even doubted their existence.
This thread has taught me that some of them DO exist. That’s a
real shock to me, being antithetical to the pro-life ministry. Pro-life
work is based in the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death.

I’m really so surprised by what a minority of posters have said here.
 
True enough. But I also think that the whole idea of putting away well-to-do mothers-to-be–ones who maybe are the spouses of men who may well vote GOP and help bankroll GOP campaigns–is a big part of the reason most GOP politicians aren’t really serious about ending abortion.
This is pure conjecture. I think the GOP is serious about it, but I think they are far too cautious. They take baby steps, hoping not to ignite the strong pro-abortion crowd’s anger. I think the GOP wants to chip away at it, a small restriction here and funding elimination there, and eventually all that will remain a token resistance.
When you think about it, the rich woman with no pressure on her, who merely wants to avoid motherhood, is committing the more egregious crime.
More egregious than what? The needy woman? Absolutely! That was my point. But I don’t think her crime any more egregious than the abortionist. They are both equally guilty.
 
No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but I don’t understand. A reference to Aquinas’ work would be nice and appreciated; like a link or the name of a book or something. I also don’t see a reference to punishment for a violation of criminal law. I also suspect that what you have stated is not actually quoted, at least not properly, because you are using bits and pieces of Aquinas’ reasoning. I’m not saying this to be uncharitable; I’m saying this because that possibility exists.
Sure -

“We speak of merit …” - Summa Theologica I/II 21,3 (The consequences of human action by reason of their goodness and malice)
“Punishment is proportionate to sin …” - Ibid I/II 87,3 ad 1 (The debt of punishment)
“Mercy and clemency …” - Ibid II/II 159,1 ad 2 (Cruelty)

As regards punishment for violation of the law, that concept runs throughout his Summa; that is the function of the magistrate.

He who takes vengeance on the wicked in keeping with his rank and position does not usurp what belongs to God but makes use of the power granted him by God. For it is written (Romans 13:4) of the earthly prince that “he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Ibid II/II 108,1 ad 1 - Vengeance)
Nope, doesn’t explain it either. I do see the word “punishment” being used but I don’t see it specifically referring to punishment because of a violation of criminal law.
I don’t understand this objection. It is the State alone which has the authority (and the obligation) to punish and clearly the State may punish only violations of its laws.
Perhaps you are correct if you are using definitions that Aquinas provided, but Aquinas is not the only philosopher/theologian/Church father. Even if he is a saint he was not infallible when he lived as a mortal human being on earth. He may have been wrong.
Aquinas wasn’t right about everything but there is nothing to suggest he was wrong in these cases specifically, besides which, these are pretty basic concepts; what are you objecting to?
Other definitions of “just” and “merciful” could be used. Relying on only those provided by Aquinas is not really sufficient IMHO.
No, I don’t think there are other definitions. Justice is actually a fairly simple concept:

Hence the act of justice in relation to its proper matter and object is indicated in the words,* “Rendering to each one his right*,” (Ibid I/II 58,1 - Justice)
(CCC 1807) Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor
And I feel much more secure about the Church’s position as stated in the CCC than I feel when reading something by Aquinas. Or you (again, I’m not trying to be uncharitable; I just feel that the Church has greater authority).
The problem is that 2267 contradicts not only what Aquinas said but what was said during all of Church history for nearly 2000 years as well as what is contained within the same catechism. The choice is not as simple as accepting or rejecting 2267, it is between accepting 2267 and rejecting everything else the Church teaches on the subject or of accepting everything else and figuring out how to incorporate 2267 within that greater structure.

Ender
 
No, it isn’t up to a particular State. And you are right, it isn’t up to the members of a particular religion. It is up to God.

It is about what the constraints ought to be within the universal framework of God’s will.
And agreeing on what God’s will is in these matters is the difficulty.
 
Sure -

“We speak of merit …” - Summa Theologica I/II 21,3 (The consequences of human action by reason of their goodness and malice)
“Punishment is proportionate to sin …” - Ibid I/II 87,3 ad 1 (The debt of punishment)
“Mercy and clemency …” - Ibid II/II 159,1 ad 2 (Cruelty)

As regards punishment for violation of the law, that concept runs throughout his Summa; that is the function of the magistrate.

He who takes vengeance on the wicked in keeping with his rank and position does not usurp what belongs to God but makes use of the power granted him by God. For it is written (Romans 13:4) of the earthly prince that “he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Ibid II/II 108,1 ad 1 - Vengeance)

I don’t understand this objection. It is the State alone which has the authority (and the obligation) to punish and clearly the State may punish only violations of its laws.

Aquinas wasn’t right about everything but there is nothing to suggest he was wrong in these cases specifically, besides which, these are pretty basic concepts; what are you objecting to?
No, I don’t think there are other definitions. Justice is actually a fairly simple concept:

Hence the act of justice in relation to its proper matter and object is indicated in the words,* “Rendering to each one his right*,” (Ibid I/II 58,1 - Justice)
(CCC 1807) Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor
The problem is that 2267 contradicts not only what Aquinas said but what was said during all of Church history for nearly 2000 years as well as what is contained within the same catechism. **The choice is not as simple as accepting or rejecting 2267, it is between accepting 2267 and rejecting everything else the Church teaches on the subject or of accepting everything else and figuring out how to incorporate 2267 within that greater structure.**Ender
No - the choice is accepting that today is today,
not that today should be yesterday. Really simple, IMO.
 
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