Philothea on Phire and WYD

[april32010]

I had to look this up. I was like, dancing… what? What’s he talking about?

Actually, I think that was pretty funny. I know good Catholics shouldn’t be critical of the hierarchy, but seriously… some of them are really bad dancers.

And I would know, I am one.

a Bishop ?

 

[simple_soul]

wow and just think Pope Francis just told these exuberant kids to go shake up their dioceses!

From what I saw of WYD was a lot of reverence and deep meditation and reflection from the camera scans. The personal testimonies of some of them…especially of the one young man in the wheelchair!

As far as “pop” music in the Mass…I don’t know how some of you get pope out of songs like Panis Angelicus m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxVq_Yba5d8. and a few others…even some of the more “peppy” or “up beat” toons were done very tastefully and respectfully with reverence. I thought anyway. And personally I find church music that is sung at a little faster pace to be more joyful as I beleive it should be joyful since we are joining Simion and thanking God because our eyes have and are seeing our salvation coming to us in he Eucharist. What is not joyful about that! We should be full of exuberant joy! These youth at this WYD to me put us to shame! They were honest. They were themselves befor God! Not trying to hide behind some perfect music or stage. What I saw on a lot of youths faces was deep prayer and just themselves as they are, sins and all, as God sees them, standing before God. Praising Him and rejoicing in Him and His Love and Salvation for them inspite of thier shamfulness and sinfullness and not being ashamed to show thier love for Him and deep prayerful conviction to try and live better lives. How many of us can say we are ok with all of creation seeing us as God sees us? Remember, as I tell my children, the only things you will be taking with you when you leave this world is yourself and your relationship with God and each other. Our souls will all be bare before God and each other. Nothing else matters. We will all see each other as God sees us. If we died tonight in our sleep are we ready for that? I do beleive a lot of the youths I saw durring WYD can honestly say yes they are. Can you? I do beleive that Jesus was so right when He said that the Kingdom of God belongs to children such as these.
Remember Pope Francis commissioned them to shake up thier dioceses. That means they are coming to shake us up. Are you ready?

I am sure that not every one was like this but this is what I saw from the camera scans.
Remember also Pope Francis admonished in one of his homilies durring WYD to not be negative…

 

[JReducation]

a Bishop ?

I think he means a good Catholic.

As far as the bishops dancing is concerned. I think it’s a silly concern that people have.

Silliness, as we saw in the “dance” if that’s what it was, is also part of good healthy spirituality. Spirituality that does not allow for silliness is toxic faith, not true spirituality. Every human being lives on a continuum that goes from the very intense to the very lax. That’s the way that God made us. We can’t compartmentalize ourselves, because God did not make us that way.

As we study the lives of the great saints and mystics, we find that they too had their silly moments. Silliness changes from one generation to the next or one culture to the next.

But in history we have examples of Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi dancing before the tabernacle, Philip Neri placing a squirrel on his shoulder while saying mass, Pascal Baylon levitating and the guardian of the house throwing a towel up to him and shouting, “While you’re up there, please dust the rafters.” None of them were concerned about what they were wearing or who was watching them.

Teresa of Avila was one who actually made fun of and criticized those whom she called “sour faced saints”. Her actual words were, “God protect me from sour faced saints”. There was a mindset during her time that fun and reverence were incompatible. The Protestants actually preserved this mindset for a very long time, some fundamentalist groups still hang on to it.

There is a difference between silliness, which is fun, and disrespect, which is not funny at all. I think that some people are confusing the two. There is no disrespect in dancing, waving your arms, shuffling your feet, or spinning around like a tormented windmill while wearing a vestment or a habit.

Even the use of the term “sacred” is incorrect here. On another site, not CAF, I read someone refer to the “sacred vestments”. Well, yes the term is used, just as I say the “holy habit”. But there are degrees of sacredness and holiness.

When I speak of a vestment or a habit as being sacred or holy, I’m not using the term the same way as I would be if I’m speaking about a sacrament. I would not use the term holy in holy water, as I would in speaking about holy mass. There are varying degrees.

In reality, the person wearing the habit or the vestment is far more sacred than the garb, because all human life is sacred and every human being is created in the image of the Creator.

When we speak, before we criticize, we must keep in mind that the person we’re criticizing is more sacred than the thing that we’re protecting, which in this case is the vestment. There was no mass going on.

On a practical note, I’ve been to WYD, as I said before. In Denver, we were in a park. In Rio they were on a beach. Place 3,000,000 young people on a beach. Ask them to wait for several hours for a mass to begin and have nothing for them to do or expect them to be in a state of contemplation and you’ll have Bedlam in 30 minutes or less. You’ll have kids pushing each other into the ocean, creating their own entertainment, whining and complaining because it’s hot, because they’re standing, because they’re hungry, etc etc.

I figure that if a park needed to provide diverse activity for the congregation, how much more so do they need it on a beach. I can assure you that they did not dance for four hours. There is no way that you can do that for four hours either. That would get old and physically draining. They probably had othering things happening too. This was the most colorful and the silliest part of the waiting period. Therefore, this is what got recorded on film. How interesting is it to record 3 million people praying a rosary? Let’s get real here.

You and I may find it interesting, but look at who we are. The average Joe with a video camera won’t.

 

[triumphguy]

A friend’s child just committed suicide.

All this arguing is total waste of time.

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

Go tell your kid you love them.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Triumphguy, what a terrible tragedy, prayers for you & your friend’s family.

And you’re right, this thread, and the blog post it is based on make me want to weep. I honestly cannot believe that there is this much vitriol over WYD!

3+ MILLION young adults, worshiping & praising God- we should be over the moon with joy!

A friend’s child just committed suicide.

All this arguing is total waste of time.

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

Go tell your kid you love them.

 

[holyfamily1]

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

This.

 

[Simpleton]

I think he means a good Catholic.

As far as the bishops dancing is concerned. I think it’s a silly concern that people have.

Silliness, as we saw in the “dance” if that’s what it was, is also part of good healthy spirituality. Spirituality that does not allow for silliness is toxic faith, not true spirituality. Every human being lives on a continuum that goes from the very intense to the very lax. That’s the way that God made us. We can’t compartmentalize ourselves, because God did not make us that way.

As we study the lives of the great saints and mystics, we find that they too had their silly moments. Silliness changes from one generation to the next or one culture to the next.

But in history we have examples of Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi dancing before the tabernacle, Philip Neri placing a squirrel on his shoulder while saying mass, Pascal Baylon levitating and the guardian of the house throwing a towel up to him and shouting, “While you’re up there, please dust the rafters.” None of them were concerned about what they were wearing or who was watching them.

Teresa of Avila was one who actually made fun of and criticized those whom she called “sour faced saints”. Her actual words were, “God protect me from sour faced saints”. There was a mindset during her time that fun and reverence were incompatible. The Protestants actually preserved this mindset for a very long time, some fundamentalist groups still hang on to it.

There is a difference between silliness, which is fun, and disrespect, which is not funny at all. I think that some people are confusing the two. There is no disrespect in dancing, waving your arms, shuffling your feet, or spinning around like a tormented windmill while wearing a vestment or a habit.

Even the use of the term “sacred” is incorrect here. On another site, not CAF, I read someone refer to the “sacred vestments”. Well, yes the term is used, just as I say the “holy habit”. But there are degrees of sacredness and holiness.

When I speak of a vestment or a habit as being sacred or holy, I’m not using the term the same way as I would be if I’m speaking about a sacrament. I would not use the term holy in holy water, as I would in speaking about holy mass. There are varying degrees.

In reality, the person wearing the habit or the vestment is far more sacred than the garb, because all human life is sacred and every human being is created in the image of the Creator.

When we speak, before we criticize, we must keep in mind that the person we’re criticizing is more sacred than the thing that we’re protecting, which in this case is the vestment. There was no mass going on.

On a practical note, I’ve been to WYD, as I said before. In Denver, we were in a park. In Rio they were on a beach. Place 3,000,000 young people on a beach. Ask them to wait for several hours for a mass to begin and have nothing for them to do or expect them to be in a state of contemplation and you’ll have Bedlam in 30 minutes or less. You’ll have kids pushing each other into the ocean, creating their own entertainment, whining and complaining because it’s hot, because they’re standing, because they’re hungry, etc etc.

I figure that if a park needed to provide diverse activity for the congregation, how much more so do they need it on a beach. I can assure you that they did not dance for four hours. There is no way that you can do that for four hours either. That would get old and physically draining. They probably had othering things happening too. This was the most colorful and the silliest part of the waiting period. Therefore, this is what got recorded on film. How interesting is it to record 3 million people praying a rosary? Let’s get real here.

You and I may find it interesting, but look at who we are. The average Joe with a video camera won’t.

You’re right, the average Joe won’t show people praying a rosary or being in a state of silent contemplation. No, the average Joe will record things that look like the spirit of the world they’re used to seeing. The very knowledge of this fact is, I’m sure, why the Church talks about the dangers of scandal and how Catholics are not to perform things which may cause others to be scandalized; and sometimes, Br. this comes at the price of looking boring and serious in the world’s eyes.

 

[simple_soul]

A friend’s child just committed suicide.

All this arguing is total waste of time.

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

Go tell your kid you love them.

Triumphguy this truly breaks my heart. My payers are with you and your friends family and thier child.

 

[JReducation]

A friend’s child just committed suicide.

All this arguing is total waste of time.

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

Go tell your kid you love them.

THIS is sad. If you want to do so, send me the first name in a PM and I will include it in our intentions as we being the novena in honor of St. Maximilian Kolbe whose feast is August 14. He’s the patron of pro-life and one of the patrons of our community.

You’re right, the average Joe won’t show people praying a rosary or being in a state of silent contemplation. No, the average Joe will record things that look like the spirit of the world they’re used to seeing. The very knowledge of this fact is, I’m sure, why the Church talks about the dangers of scandal and how Catholics are not to perform things which may cause others to be scandalized; and sometimes, Br. this comes at the price of looking boring and serious in the world’s eyes.

The fact is that it’s the Catholics who are criticizing the ones causing the scandal. If we just shut up and stop whining, no one would even think of looking for the video. That’s the kind of person whom St. Teresa said that we should avoid. The whiner and the one who sees scandal everywhere.

 

[OraLabora]

A friend’s child just committed suicide.

All this arguing is total waste of time.

Our kids are falling away from the church and are suffering and dying and we worry about bishops dancing.

Go tell your kid you love them.

I am so, so sorry to hear this.

I can’t imagine anything worse for a parent to go through.

 

[triumphguy]

I feel a bit embarrassed now having derailed the thread with something so emotive and personal.

I think I felt angry.

 

[OraLabora]

I think I felt angry.

Don’t.

We understand.

 

[rcwitness]

Please be very careful. We’re speaking about something that has been blessed by the last three popes themselves and something that they encourage for the good of the Church. We can have opinions, but we must be reverent in expressing them.

Nihil Obstat

This is an outreach from our leaders and Pope! It is to encourage. To get out of the Vatican and engage in fun ministry! Don’t be so uptight.

peace,
Michael

 

[Simpleton]

The fact is that it’s the Catholics who are criticizing the ones causing the scandal. If we just shut up and stop whining, no one would even think of looking for the video. That’s the kind of person whom St. Teresa said that we should avoid. The whiner and the one who sees scandal everywhere.

Yes, I’m sure Catholics should avoid such types; however, the reality again that such people exist is even more of a reason to compose oneself as to be blameless. When you think about it, it would have been easier to avoid all of this by just saying no to dancing the cha-cha-cha.

I feel a bit embarrassed now having derailed the thread with something so emotive and personal.

I think I felt angry.

No need to apologize. What happened was a horrible tragedy and my prayers go out to you, your friends and their family. Prayers also for the repose of the soul of their child.

 

[JReducation]

Yes, I’m sure Catholics should avoid such types; however, the reality again that such people exist is even more of a reason to compose oneself as to be blameless. When you think about it, it would have been easier to avoid all of this by just saying no to dancing the cha-cha-cha.

I would still dance the cha-cha-cha, if I knew how. There is such a thing as being hyper vigilant too. That can lead to scrupulosity.

One has to be careful not to give scandal, but this does not mean that one must be excessively concerned about what others think either. Otherwise, the rule becomes oppressive. Moral rules are to liberate not to oppress human nature.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I had a similar experience in Denver and I was there as a chaperone, not a young pilgrim. It brought home the universality of the Church. I also found that I became very passionate about the Church rather than my opinions of what Catholicism should be.

It helped me to focus on what is good in people and in their faith, rather than on the things that I would like or don’t like.

I was not sold on WYDs at first. I had heard so much negative remarks from my traditionalist friends who referred to is as Catholic Woodstock. When I was asked to chaperone, I thought this was an opportunity to see it firsthand.

I then realized that people attended Woodstock to get away from something and liberate themselves from rules and social norms, whereas people attended WYD following someone who gave direction to their lives, not away from society, but God and man in charity.

 

[Opie90]

I think it would be nice if youth going to big Catholic gathering had more options.

To my knowledge, any time there are more than say 100 young people gathered in one place, this exuberant worship is the only option the planners provide.

It is my [limited, of course] experience as a young person (currently 23) that any mass, Eucharistic adoration etc. geared toward young people is made “contemporary” in style [and indeed most in general seem to be] without seemingly ever considering whether there are benefits to doing otherwise.

I experienced this in my Protestant upbringing as well. *

I think that the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary form when in Latin and/or chanted for example are rather like great literature or great music. Sometimes they appear boring when first considered, but if you are willing to pay attention and give them the benefit of the doubt their beauty begin to appear. I once thought classical music boring. The first time I heard Mahler 9th symphony was a miserable experience. The second, months, if not a year later, it was incredibly, painfully beautiful.

I don’t object to contemporary (in the sense of being created last year) necessarily. It just seems to me that most contemporary music written for worship, both Catholic and Protestant lacks depth. It seems to lack that “I can go ever deeper into this composition and be brought to a better understanding of the world depth” that “just by the way the notes and the words (and any other elements) come together I know this is holy ground depth.”

Does the contemporary music currently used have a good effect? It does in my experience, it did on me and does/can if I bring my whole self to pay attention to it (usually through the lyrics) To me, it just seems to fall so short of what could be the case. So shallow in comparison. and I wish it wasn’t the only way of worship at my parish being offered to me as a young person

Part of my desire for a way of worshiping that is more rooted in the way western Christian worship historically developed up til recently is also undoubtedly because it makes tangible the fact that Christianity is an historical faith - it is hard not to be cognizant of all who have gone before you and of the church past present and future being one (and that something of infinite value is happening) when your worship is a definitive step out of the styles that surround you.

Edit: to clarify, in case anyone mistakes me for such, I am not someone who believes only classical or only old music is good. I love radiohead, bob dylan, blur, the flaming lips, mumford and sons and many others who are current/fairly recent, who I believe are creating art of great depth and just like classical music sometimes take time to grow into*

 

[Simpleton]

I would still dance the cha-cha-cha, if I knew how. There is such a thing as being hyper vigilant too. That can lead to scrupulosity.

One has to be careful not to give scandal, but this does not mean that one must be excessively concerned about what others think either. Otherwise, the rule becomes oppressive. Moral rules are to liberate not to oppress human nature.

Prudence.

 

[simple_soul]

I would still dance the cha-cha-cha, if I knew how. There is such a thing as being hyper vigilant too. That can lead to scrupulosity.

One has to be careful not to give scandal, but this does not mean that one must be excessively concerned about what others think either. Otherwise, the rule becomes oppressive. ** Moral rules are to liberate not to oppress human nature**.

I have never heard or read this about moral rules befor and it is still sinking in. It is so profound. I honestly do beleive it is going to change a lot for me of who I am and how I am and how I see some things. hopefully for the better.
It just gives everything such a profoundly different perspective of how to see things… I don’t really have no words to explain why. Just want to let it sink in for now…thank you.

 

[vames]

From what I saw of WYD was a lot of reverence and deep meditation and reflection from the camera scans. The personal testimonies of some of them…especially of the one young man in the wheelchair!

As far as “pop” music in the Mass…I don’t know how some of you get pope out of songs like Panis Angelicus m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxVq_Yba5d8. and a few others…even some of the more “peppy” or “up beat” toons were done very tastefully and respectfully with reverence. I thought anyway. And personally I find church music that is sung at a little faster pace to be more joyful as I beleive it should be joyful since we are joining Simion and thanking God because our eyes have and are seeing our salvation coming to us in he Eucharist. What is not joyful about that! We should be full of exuberant joy! These youth at this WYD to me put us to shame! They were honest. They were themselves befor God! Not trying to hide behind some perfect music or stage. What I saw on a lot of youths faces was deep prayer and just themselves as they are, sins and all, as God sees them, standing before God. Praising Him and rejoicing in Him and His Love and Salvation for them inspite of thier shamfulness and sinfullness and not being ashamed to show thier love for Him and deep prayerful conviction to try and live better lives. How many of us can say we are ok with all of creation seeing us as God sees us? Remember, as I tell my children, the only things you will be taking with you when you leave this world is yourself and your relationship with God and each other. Our souls will all be bare before God and each other. Nothing else matters. We will all see each other as God sees us. If we died tonight in our sleep are we ready for that? I do beleive a lot of the youths I saw durring WYD can honestly say yes they are. Can you? I do beleive that Jesus was so right when He said that the Kingdom of God belongs to children such as these.

This is what I have seen too.
For some time, I used to watch the livestream of the masses at some Brazilian churches (Sao Paulo, Aparecida, Sorocaba). I became acquainted with their style of worship, with a lot of songs with guitars, with people waving hands in the air during the songs, holding hands during Our Father and with many EMHCs. All this was totally foreign to me (think about a parish that still has altar rails and all the masses are celebrated like it must have been by 1970). I was scared of a priest speaking in tongues right before he said in Latin “Oremus”. Some of the songs were long and tiresome; others were incredibly beautiful. I have seen Adorations that somehow replaced the need for something magical and I have seen Adorations that humbled me, with veiled women and with men kneeling and praying like it were the last day of their lives. I have listened to some of the best homilies that I ever heard. And I have seen the faces and attitudes of people, simple people who filled the air with their sincere devotion and deeply reverent prayer. It wasn’t the “unbridled emotion and feeling” that some use to despise. It wasn’t the stereotypical “Pentecostal” show with half-pagan people almost fainting, with their eyes closed. No - they are Catholics like you and me. I recognized those faced and attitudes at the WYD masses. I am deeply thankful for what they have taught me about faith and being Catholic. I’d be the last to judge them and decree that they aren’t Catholic because their style of worship is sometimes different. Nobody can tell me that they are inferior to any first-world Catholic.