Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[asia53]

How many other dioceses have at least 40 young men studying to become priests? I mean the ones that allow girls to serve as altar servers as well?

Girls are allowed to be altar servers here. We have 2 seminaries filled to capacity, 74 young men. I’ve heard, there is a long waiting list for both.

 

[NewsTheMan]

You’ve missed the point. It isn’t about equality. It’s about being excluded because of gender.

… and so? I am excluded from the Ladies Bathroom because of gender. I am excluded from First For Women Car Insurance because of gender. I am excluded from the Carmelite convent because of gender. I am excluded from being pregnant because of gender.

Don’t tell me you’ve bought into the liberal rhetoric

[Side note: 1000th post woooo]

 

[bjmad]

Our parish has never allowed girls to serve together with boys at the same Mass. Our pastor also began phasing in an all male altar server program a few years ago. He explained that if a girl were already serving, she may continue, but any new servers who wished to join the ranks had to be boys. He clearly explained his reasons for doing this (help foster vocations, the history of altar boys in the Church, how the allowance for girls came about, etc.). It was very well received, and most all of the girls have dropped out of the program (only 3 remaining).

This type of phasing out approach was used at another parish in our area, and now they have an all-boy server program with over 60 boys involved. There are between 12 and 20 boys serving at each Mass…beautiful!

Yep, same with our parish with phasing in all male altar server program and allowing the girls to finish their term, so to speak. None of our girls have dropped out.

 

[Brendan]

You’ve missed the point. It isn’t about equality. It’s about being excluded because of gender.

So…

The Church has always recognized that roles can ( and often should) be excluded by gender.

No one has a right to serve at the altar, therefore, when girls are excluded, they are not being denied anything they have a right to.

 

[Brendan]

Girls are allowed to be altar servers here. We have 2 seminaries filled to capacity, 74 young men. I’ve heard, there is a long waiting list for both.

As I mentioned before in this thread, our parish alone has had 12 men ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years, and have 8 more in the seminary right now.

That is from one parish of about 950 families.

Can any of the parishes that you know of with altar girls match that…

 

[Brendan]

 

[barb_finnegan]

Bravo for Phoenix!

And I hope that the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska continues the all-male servers after Bishop Bruskiewitz retires. He’s another great shepherd in my book! WOO HOO!

 

[asia53]

… and so? I am excluded from the Ladies Bathroom because of gender. I am excluded from First For Women Car Insurance because of gender. I am excluded from the Carmelite convent because of gender. I am excluded from being pregnant because of gender.

Don’t tell me you’ve bought into the liberal rhetoric

[Side note: 1000th post woooo]

In the first place, were you ever allowed in the Ladies bathroom? Ask your insurance agent about First for Women Car insurance. I’m sure they have all kinds of studies, etc about why they do this. Now, I’m worried, Carmelite convent!?! When there are perfectly good male Carmelite orders.

Liberal? I’m not a liberal, never have been and certainly, don’t ever plan on being one. The very least you could have done is read my other posts on this subject.

Once again, what I’ve said in the my other posts. With permission, the girls were allowed to be altar server. It’s the priest’s right to do this. However, I think, it sends a very bad message to those girls.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

I might not have much room to talk about this issue because I’m a Methodist, but I feel like I should. I am about as Pro-Catholic as a protestant can get, and I would LOVE to reconcile over to the Catholic faith, but this issue is one of the biggest things holding me back. This is un-biblical and I believe this sends the wrong messages to women in Christ.

I agree almost with every single thing in Catholicism except their stances on women. This article makes it sound like women are restricted in their faith because of their gender, that for some reason they can have little to no role in the shaping of the church besides being a nun. I’m not saying women should be priest, as a non-Catholic I don’t think it’s my place to say the church should make such a change, but you can’t ignore the fact that Paul worked along side women tending to the church.

There was even plenty information that suggest that Junias who was mentioned in Romans 16:7 was an female, and an apostle. In Romans 16:1-2 Phoebe is a Deacon. In Acts 21:8-9 Philip the Evangelist had four daughter who prophesied; however despite all these women, girls can’t serve on an altar? Please.

 

[NewsTheMan]

In the first place, were you ever allowed in the Ladies bathroom? Ask your insurance agent about First for Women Car insurance. I’m sure they have all kinds of studies, etc about why they do this. Now, I’m worried, Carmelite convent!?! When there are perfectly good male Carmelite orders.

In bold are answers one could give with qualifications to this altar boy situation [change male to female with the Carmelite stuff, you get the point of it]!

Liberal? I’m not a liberal, never have been and certainly, don’t ever plan on being one. The very least you could have done is read my other posts on this subject.

Didn’t claim you were a liberal. Didn’t even suggest you were close to it - I just questioned whether or not you were taken in by their rhetoric. I apologize otherwise if I have taken you out of context but I saw your post for what it was.

However, I think, it sends a very bad message to those girls.

Bad message about what? Respecting the Church? Obedience to the Church and her Priests and Bishops? Recognizing that boys and girls are different and have different roles in the Church? Promoting vocations? Understanding that nobody has a right to these kinds of things and it is a gift from God to serve Him?

 

[NewsTheMan]

This is un-biblical and I believe this sends the wrong messages to women in Christ.

Altar boys aren’t even mentioned in the Bible in the first place. It is certainly not unbiblical to have clear and defined roles for women and men that are different. Did God send a wrong message to women in Christ when Jesus was made a man?

I agree almost with every single thing in Catholicism except their stances on women.

What stances?

This article makes it sound like women are restricted in their faith because of their gender, that for some reason they can have little to no role in the shaping of the church besides being a nun.

First, you are reading into the article. Didn’t read that way to me at all.
Secondly, you are insulting Catholic women world-over. Women have such a great and immense role in the Church as symbolized in Mary. Without men and women the Church would fail. It’s a beautiful companionship and complementarity. In most parishes worldwide women are the ones looking after the Church, helping the priests, helping before and after Mass, setting up cake sales. So many things!
Lastly, you insult nuns. “Besides being a nun”. Hmph. As if this is not a hugely respected calling and a great thing to be! Mother Teresa, nuff said

but you can’t ignore the fact that Paul worked along side women tending to the church.

You can’t deny the fact that as Catholics we still do.

There was even plenty information that suggest that Junias who was mentioned in Romans 16:7 was an female, and an apostle. In Romans 16:1-2 Phoebe is a Deacon.

All things that are dealt with by the Church, you can find explanations on this very site.

In Acts 21:8-9 Philip the Evangelist had four daughter who prophesied; however despite all these women, girls can’t serve on an altar? Please.

What does someone who was bestowed a gift from God have to do with a girl serving the altar?

 

[SpeakInSilence]

Altar boys aren’t even mentioned in the Bible in the first place. It is certainly not unbiblical to have clear and defined roles for women and men that are different. Did God send a wrong message to women in Christ when Jesus was made a man?

What stances?

First, you are reading into the article. Didn’t read that way to me at all.
Secondly, you are insulting Catholic women world-over. Women have such a great and immense role in the Church as symbolized in Mary. Without men and women the Church would fail. It’s a beautiful companionship and complementarity. In most parishes worldwide women are the ones looking after the Church, helping the priests, helping before and after Mass, setting up cake sales. So many things!
Lastly, you insult nuns. “Besides being a nun”. Hmph. As if this is not a hugely respected calling and a great thing to be! Mother Teresa, nuff said

You can’t deny the fact that as Catholics we still do.

All things that are dealt with by the Church, you can find explanations on this very site.

What does someone who was bestowed a gift from God have to do with a girl serving the altar?

Well to answer your first question let me answer, I believe in purgatory, praying for the dead, Authority of the Pope (still reading over it, but the Catholic argument is pretty convincing), the Eucharist, reverence of Mary. There others, but it might take all day to discuss it.

Second thing I meant no disrespect for Catholic women, but I feel like it’s disheartening for women all over the world to confine them to only one role. Not every girl has the spiritual gifts to become a nun, not everyone has the spiritual gifts to become an altar server, but to restrict them because of gender is ludicrous.

Thirdly, the reason I bring up these women in the bible because I wanted to bring up the fact that women (along with men) had a huge impact on the Church, in early church history they could have been deacons, but not anymore; however now they shouldn’t even be altar servers?

Lastly, when did I ever even hint towards the fact that Jesus should have been anything other than a man? The Jewish people at that time wouldn’t have listened to a woman, it it was prophecy that Christ would be a man. I’m not as Liberal as you might think .

 

[NewsTheMan]

Second thing I meant no disrespect for Catholic women, but I feel like it’s disheartening for women all over the world to confine them to only one role.

Confining them is not what is going on. Furthermore, they don’t only have one role anyway. Lastly, there are always going to be a finite number of “roles” for anybody. Working on the liberal premise of “freedom trumps everything and pursue whatever you want” is not how God or the Church operates. Individuals should have restrictions and confines within which they can work. People have placed their own wants as the first and foremost pressing matter, and they see options as the highest good. “We want options!” they all cry.

Not every girl has the spiritual gifts to become a nun, not everyone has the spiritual gifts to become an altar server, but to restrict them because of gender is ludicrous.

We’ve gone over this, so has the Church, so have many ITT and on this website.

Thirdly, the reason I bring up these women in the bible because I wanted to bring up the fact that women (along with men) had a huge impact on the Church, in early church history they could have been deacons, but not anymore; however now they shouldn’t even be altar servers?

Women were not ordained deacons in scripture. They served a purpose for a time to baptise women, so as to preserve chastity. They were not ordained deacons.

The Jewish people at that time wouldn’t have listened to a woman, it it was prophecy that Christ would be a man.

It was prophecy because God made the choice. And… they wouldn’t have listened to a woman? Ahhh, yes, because they all listened to Jesus anyway? Jesus broke a lot of taboo in his time. He did what God does. He didn’t care about cultural preference or ideas. It has nothing to do with that. God chose to come as man, pure and simple. That’s the point I was making. So is God sexist?

 

[SpeakInSilence]

Confining them is not what is going on. Furthermore, they don’t only have one role anyway. Lastly, there are always going to be a finite number of “roles” for anybody. Working on the liberal premise of “freedom trumps everything and pursue whatever you want” is not how God or the Church operates. Individuals should have restrictions and confines within which they can work. People have placed their own wants as the first and foremost pressing matter, and they see options as the highest good. “We want options!” they all cry.

I do not believe everyone should be able to do everything they want; however there is no good reason why women should not be altar servers.

We’ve gone over this, so has the Church, so have many ITT and on this website.

Exactly, I’ve read about this on the site, but is it up to the Church to decide what spiritual gifts are given to individuals?

Women were not ordained deacons in scripture. They served a purpose for a time to baptise women, so as to preserve chastity. They were not ordained deacons.

Once again Phoebe in Rom 16.1-2 is called by the masculine form of Deacon, and there is countless of accounts in oral tradition of women being called deacons.

It was prophecy because God made the choice. And… they wouldn’t have listened to a woman? Ahhh, yes, because they all listened to Jesus anyway? Jesus broke a lot of taboo in his time. He did what God does. He didn’t care about cultural preference or ideas. It has nothing to do with that. God chose to come as man, pure and simple. That’s the point I was making. So is God sexist?

God is not sexist, Jesus could have been anything he wanted to be. God could have been a woman if He wanted to, but did didn’t because He told the Jewish people how He would come through the prophets. God told the Jewish people how He would come, and if He didn’t come as a man then it would have made him a liar, and God is not a liar. Are you saying God can lie? What I’m saying is God limits himself to his word. Example: Abraham’s conversation with God in Exodus 32:13-14

 

[Tigg]

I once heard a priest give a wonderful homily on lay discipleship. He said if you really want to serve the Body of Christ, try coming in to help clean the church on a day no one knows you’re doing it. Or choose a ministry not particularly pleasing to you, for therein lies the real service and sacrifice. His point though not gender-oriented, was that we all must be very careful with a self-proclaimed ministry if we really want to serve the Lord, for it might just be “self” we are seeking to please instead.

Before we feel sorry for women for having to take a back seat to a male-dominated church milieu, maybe we should re-read the lives of the saints and see just how many females were true reformers of the faith who made enormous contributions to the Church which were fully acknowledged in its history by the patriarchs. I doubt one was an altar server.

 

[PaulinVA]

As I mentioned before in this thread, our parish alone has had 12 men ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years, and have 8 more in the seminary right now.

That is from one parish of about 950 families.

Can any of the parishes that you know of with altar girls match that…

Brenden, do you know of other parishes with altar boys who have that many vocations?

No. So, there must be something more to your parish. You can’t solely credit boy altar servers.

And, by the way, my diocese allows girls to serve at the altar and has 34 seminarians.

 

[Brendan]

Brenden, do you know of other parishes with altar boys who have that many vocations?

No. So, there must be something more to your parish. You can’t solely credit boy altar servers.

And, by the way, my diocese allows girls to serve at the altar and has 34 seminarians.

I know that all of the parishes in my diocese that have just altar boys also have seminarians or very recent orandi. THe same cannot be said for the parishes that also have altargirls

What makes my parish relatively different is the involvment of large number of boys in the altar boy cadre.

 

[Brendan]

IOnce again Phoebe in Rom 16.1-2 is called by the masculine form of Deacon, and there is countless of accounts in oral tradition of women being called deacons.

Actually, No. It was not the masculine. The form of diakonos Paul recorded was διάκονον “diakonon”, which is the accusative case and is gender neutral. It describes anyone in a servant role.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

There may be valid arguments against female altar services but the idea that only boy servers will increase the vocation to priesthood is not one of them. The Vatican continues to rush in to the 17th century.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

But remember, the numbers of priests fell down because of “The Spirit of Vatican II.”

In Europe, the number of priests began declining in the 30s…well before Vatican II. Who or what did they blame then?