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Inquiringperson
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But remember, the numbers of priests fell down because of “The Spirit of Vatican II.”
Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar
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kumaraniket
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Girls no longer will be allowed as altar servers during Mass at the cathedral of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix, SS. Simon and Jude.
The Rev. John Lankeit, rector of the cathedral, said he made the decision in hopes of promoting the priesthood for males and other religious vocations, such as becoming a nun, for females.
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The Rev. John Lankeit, rector of the cathedral, said he made the decision in hopes of promoting the priesthood for males and other religious vocations, such as becoming a nun, for females.
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7_Sorrows
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i also live in the diocese of phoenix and had just read this recently. i mentioned it to someone today and this person said that the Church is going backwards and is trying to undo everything that Vatican II put into place. she is also against bringing altar rails back.
i don’t see it as going backwards, but maybe realizing that some things shouldn’t be changed. if the Catholic church says that women cannot be ordained as priests (which i agree with) they need to do whatever they can to encourage boys and young men to seek out a vocation in the priesthood. i am more conservative so i am not against any of this. there is already a shortage of priests and it seems like a good idea to have boys only be altar servers. hopefully, other priests will follow his example.
i don’t see it as going backwards, but maybe realizing that some things shouldn’t be changed. if the Catholic church says that women cannot be ordained as priests (which i agree with) they need to do whatever they can to encourage boys and young men to seek out a vocation in the priesthood. i am more conservative so i am not against any of this. there is already a shortage of priests and it seems like a good idea to have boys only be altar servers. hopefully, other priests will follow his example.
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Teelynn
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I can relate…I have know a priest or two with this mindset. They promoted this idea in some of the seminaries in the 60’s. From what I understand, however, the seminaries have cleaned up their act, so to speak. I do believe we are seeing the young priests come out of the seminaries with a much healthier outlook. And they are much more in tuned with true Catholicism.
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wisdomseeker
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Amen, to the bishop. I am a woman and have no need to be in the Sanctuary or boss the Leaders of the Church. God speaks to man, He did so always.
Women trying to lead is a worldly thing and temptation and must be put aside such to obey our Lord.
As a woman, i say that if women want to become a nun, they must seek the convent. they must seek other nuns for inspiration and not the priests.
To me it is ackward to see girls sitting side by side with a priests. to see priests washing women’s feet. this is very worldly.
VII never allow girl altar servers. JPII give in to feminists pressure and allowed. now they know that is not a good to go agianst God’s plan.
Women trying to lead is a worldly thing and temptation and must be put aside such to obey our Lord.
As a woman, i say that if women want to become a nun, they must seek the convent. they must seek other nuns for inspiration and not the priests.
To me it is ackward to see girls sitting side by side with a priests. to see priests washing women’s feet. this is very worldly.
VII never allow girl altar servers. JPII give in to feminists pressure and allowed. now they know that is not a good to go agianst God’s plan.
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irishpatrick
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It is not a matter of men/boys being better, they obviously are not better because males and females are created equal (and I do not know any Priest who thinks otherwise). It is a matter of encouraging vocations and boys tend to want to do things they consider to be male oriented. Young boys, btw, do in fact think girls are “yucky,” and that is normal. However, if a mid-teenage male thinks his female peers are “youcky,” then yes that is a problem.
There is another valid perspective regarding altar serving: it is unfair to girls and young women to let them altar serve knowing that they can NEVER be Priests. It is like saying to them, “yes, when you are young can serve, but when you become an adult, you cannot.” All that does is create some bitterness in the minds of some women when they realize that they can no longer serve at the altar as women, but they could as girls and young women. Very contradicting and mixed signals sent to females. Sort of like saying that when they are young, they are worthy, when they are older, they are unworthy…lousy message in that.
Of course at the foundation of all this is the God given institution of Holy Orders which God Himself reserved for men. The Church would likely be more than happy to be able to open Holy Orders to women, because there would never be a problem with the numbers of Priests ever again–yet the Church has NO authority to ordain women as Priests.
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PaulinVA
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Do you really think that the 8-12 year old girl thinks of altar serving as more that altar serving? Or that boys do?
It’s a several year commitment to be an altar server. That’s it. It’s not a path to a lifelong commitment. Graduating High School seniors don’t even know what they want to do with their lives! Do you expect young altar servers to?
I reject the thought that girls should be restricted from being altar servers because it is always a path to the priesthood. It is clearly not.
If you want to increase vocations, clean up the reputation of the priesthood tarnished by the priests themselves, do away with EMHCs, and have the priesthood become a noble profession that is unique and intrinsic to the life of Catholics…
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Tsuwano
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I believe this is a nonsense statement. First of all, you don’t define what the “the spirit of Vatican II” is or how it led to a decline in the priesthood. Secondly, you completely ignore any other possible explanations, such as the revolutionary cultural and social changes which took place in Western societies following the close of World War II, the expansion of opportunities for young men hailing from immigrant communities which had long served as a breeding ground for priestly vocations, the social emphasis on a new way of relating between men and women in society, and a newer willingness to question religion and its values during the midpoint of the 20th Century. There could be a whole number of reasons other than the 2nd Vatican Council for the decline in priestly vocations. Pointing to one undefined reason for this decline is barely honest.
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Tsuwano
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The article points out that female altar servers have been in place in American churches since 1983, yet the decline in vocations for the priesthood began long before that. Dioceses were already complaining of shortages in the late 60’s and early 70’s. How then is it possible to claim that female altar servers somehow prohibit boys from seeking the priesthood, as if females on the altar can trump the call and grace of the Holy Spirit? It’s a red herring designed to promote a particular vision of the Church in which the roles and power of women within the institution are limited. Now if someone wishes to defend or promote such a vision of Church, that’s fine, but don’t pretend that limiting girls from serving at the altar during mass will promote vocations to the priesthood. It will take something more than that.
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irishpatrick
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I do not think anyone is saying the altar server role is the only thing impact vocations, far from it actually. The point is, if the presence of female altar servers works to discourage ANY vocations, then it is too costly. Further, it is just not fair to females to let them serve, while denying them Holy Orders.
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irishpatrick
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You make good points about the culture, yet the problem is the Church in the 60s and 70s began to follow the culture, rather than teaching and leading the culture as it should. Vatican II is not to blame, but the many perversions and experiments made under the guide of Vatican II most definitely had a lot to do with the fall of vocations.
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James924
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Agreed
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irishpatrick
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Yes, without doubt boys tend to lean towards they think are male oriented, and yes sometimes boys will get close to a fireman in their family and want to become firemen, and others will look-up to their Priests and want to become Priests. Yet, in those cases, many boys will not care at all about vocations if they gtet ANY sense it is not a male role. Sorry, but women just cannot get these points fully. Altar Serving, beyond any rational debate, was always used as a means to encourage boys to consider vocations–to argue otherwise is to ignore history.
Your other points I agree with, raising the reputation of the Priesthood by having more sound and good Priests (and more ‘male’ Priests) will go a long way. Yet, anything that negatively impacts vocations is not wise.
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irishpatrick
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Thank you. And, if only 1/2 of one-percent of all boys turn from vocations because they do not see it as a specifically male role, then we lose them as Priests.
The question is never: has God called enough men to the Priesthood (He always does).
The question is: why aren’t more men listening to that call?
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Wardog
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Wow, I am really surprised by the number of people who are in favor of banning girls as altar servers. I think that this should be a non-issue. It should not make any difference.
Of course, I am probably in the minority on this issue, as I am also in favor of ordaining women. We can argue all day long about the scriptural and historical reasons for banning women from the priesthood. But it also boils down to demographics. I have no sympathy for those who worry about the lack of priests if the Church automatically excludes 50% of the population at the outset.
Of course, I am probably in the minority on this issue, as I am also in favor of ordaining women. We can argue all day long about the scriptural and historical reasons for banning women from the priesthood. But it also boils down to demographics. I have no sympathy for those who worry about the lack of priests if the Church automatically excludes 50% of the population at the outset.
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James924
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I believe it is nonsense to pretend that the post-conciliar liturgical and pastoral reforms are not primary contributors to the vocations crisis and all the other crises in the church today. I don’t buy the argument that it was the culture and sexual revolution and everything but the council. The resaon why I don’t buy that is that there are many traditional communitites (FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, etc) that are living in the same culture and sexual revolution world as us and yet they don’t have these same crises and the only difference is that they are a snapshot of the pre-conciliar world. If the “it was just the culture and everything but the council” argument were true, then the FSSP and Institute of Christ the king (and yes, the SSPX as well since we’re just talking numbers here) would not be having vocation booms and parishes packed full of parishoners old and young all (or almost all) of whom go to mass every sunday (instead of just 30%) all (or almost all) of whom understand and believe in the real presence (instead of 30%) all (or almost all) of whom accept the church’s teaching on contraception (instead of about 10%) which you can tell by the fact that everyone has about 30 kids
etc etc. The list of problems in the church that simply do not or hardly exist in these “pre-conciliar-like” communities goes on and on.Keep in mind, none of the reforms being scrutinized are doctrinal or infallible, these are just diciplines, things that can be imprudent and have negative practical effects and against which catholics are permitted to argue and pettition (so long as they are obedient while arguing and pettitioning). The Church has made imprudent pastoral and disciplinary decisions in the past, this is nothing new.
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James924
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Do you believe in objective truth? Or do you believe that the church’s teachings are relative? For example, do you believe that the church just makes up its own definitions about the realities and natures of things, such as marriage, or the nature of God, or Transubstantiation and that these things are subject to change at the whim of human opinion?
EDIT: To clarify, I’m asking you this question in response to your comment on priestesses, not altar girls, because altar girls are a matter of discipline, not objective truth. The question is, can disciplines have negative practical effects and, if these effects are observed should we consider changing the discipline.
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Corki
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It’s a non-issue because it’s the priest’s choice. It should not make any difference what the Bishop decides.
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James924
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Yes, he’s only a sucessor of the apostles, whos bindings and loosings are ratified in Heaven, who has supreme authority over the affairs of his diocese, given to him by God.
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Wardog
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No, and nothing in my post indicated that I have those beliefs. But if you want to consider objective truth, then consider Mary Magdalene, who the Church honors as the Apostle to the Apostles. Women were integral and very active in the early Church. The role of women in the church may be a result of the secular attitudes towards women of the era more than God believing that women should always be subordinate to men.
And objectively, men abandoned Jesus more than women did. Peter denied Christ 3 times; the male apostles hid while Jesus was being crucified. It was the women who stayed with Jesus until he died on the cross.
Are you saying that these things did not happen?
And it is not like men have always been great priests. 100% of the priests who molested children were men. How may female religious molested children? (Answer; none, unless you count the sisters who rapped my hand with rulers in Catechism class)
But finally, the Church has always faced up to reality. She recognized that the Earth went around the Sun; She recognizes that there is no difficulty in reconciling science and religion; She gave up great temporal power in the realization that she could not reconcile that with Spiritual power.
And eventually She will recognize that in the face of declining vocations that to keep church doors open She will have to consider ordaining women.
There is a lot more scriptual support for celibacy than for not ordaining women, but I have seen on other threads that this is not dogma but a church discipline that is not held to be absolute.
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