Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[irishpatrick]

Wow, I am really surprised by the number of people who are in favor of banning girls as altar servers. I think that this should be a non-issue. It should not make any difference.

Of course, I am probably in the minority on this issue, as I am also in favor of ordaining women. We can argue all day long about the scriptural and historical reasons for banning women from the priesthood. But it also boils down to demographics. I have no sympathy for those who worry about the lack of priests if the Church automatically excludes 50% of the population at the outset.

You provided your own answer. By rejecting Catholic Church teachings in favor of ordaining women, of course you would not understand why many Catholics favor boys only altar serving.

 

[Corki]

There is a lot more scriptual support for celibacy than for not ordaining women, but I have seen on other threads that this is not dogma but a church discipline that is not held to be absolute.

Only half true. It is not a dogma but neither is it a disciplinary teaching which can be changed by the Church leadership. The teaching on an all-male priesthood is doctrinal and is not able to be changed.

OTOH, the issue of altar servers is disciplinary. The current instruction is that boys be encouraged to serve but that girls may be allowed.

 

[James924]

No, and nothing in my post indicated that I have those beliefs. But if you want to consider objective truth, then consider Mary Magdalene, who the Church honors as the Apostle to the Apostles. Women were integral and very active in the early Church. The role of women in the church may be a result of the secular attitudes towards women of the era more than God believing that women should always be subordinate to men.
And objectively, men abandoned Jesus more than women did. Peter denied Christ 3 times; the male apostles hid while Jesus was being crucified. It was the women who stayed with Jesus until he died on the cross.
Are you saying that these things did not happen?
And it is not like men have always been great priests. 100% of the priests who molested children were men. How may female religious molested children? (Answer; none, unless you count the sisters who rapped my hand with rulers in Catechism class)
But finally, the Church has always faced up to reality. She recognized that the Earth went around the Sun; She recognizes that there is no difficulty in reconciling science and religion; She gave up great temporal power in the realization that she could not reconcile that with Spiritual power.
And eventually She will recognize that in the face of declining vocations that to keep church doors open She will have to consider ordaining women.
There is a lot more scriptual support for celibacy than for not ordaining women, but I have seen on other threads that this is not dogma but a church discipline that is not held to be absolute.

First of all, I hate to break it to you, but you’re a Catholic in name only (whether you realize it or admit it or not). [unless I understood your first line incorrectly]

Secondly your post is so full of random spatters of logical fallacies and half truths that it gave me a head ache. Mary Magdalene was not a priest and your arguments about women in scripture are all straw man arguments. The Catholic church gives more dignity to women than any religion on earth. There is nothing in scripture that even implies women can be priests, and nothing you stated has anything to do with anything.
Also, guess again on sexual abuse, apparently you havent read the news stories about religious sisters who sexually assaulted student’s in catholic schools. It happens, on moth sides of the gender fence, why you would arbitrarily say “none” is just mind boggling. The church never had any dogmatically defined doctrine of geo-centrism, it was just a consensus and was never claimed to be a metter of objective truth.

You need to realize that you’re arguing with God here. Feel free to go and start your own relgion though, priestesses and all.

 

[Wardog]

First of all, I hate to break it to you, but you’re a Catholic in name only (whether you realize it or admit it or not). [unless I understood your first line incorrectly]

Secondly your post is so full of random spatters of logical fallacies and half truths that it gave me a head ache. Mary Magdalene was not a priest and your arguments about women in scripture are all straw man arguments. The Catholic church gives more dignity to women than any religion on earth. There is nothing in scripture that even implies women can be priests, and nothing you stated has anything to do with anything.
Also, guess again on sexual abuse, apparently you havent read the news stories about religious sisters who sexually assaulted student’s in catholic schools. It happens, on moth sides of the gender fence, why you would arbitrarily say “none” is just mind boggling. The church never had any dogmatically defined doctrine of geo-centrism, it was just a consensus and was never claimed to be a metter of objective truth.

You need to realize that you’re arguing with God here. Feel free to go and start your own relgion though, priestesses and all.

I am not arguing with God, unless you believe that you speak for him. I know the Pope stifled any further discussion on this point; did not realize I was talking with him. I do feel free to argue with the Church. It is how to get clarity; sometimes I change my mind, sometimes I don’t. As does everyone on this thread. As for the rest of your post, I suggest you take some more Church and world history lessons. Though I will admit that I was unaware of female religious molesting children; I will have to do more research on that.

 

[jwinch2]

I understand completely the idea behind Altar servers being male leading to more priestly vocations. However, I think an argument could also be made that allowing females might lead to more vocations to the religious sisterhood. This could also lead to increased priestly vocations as so many sisters are involved in teaching. If young men are exposed to more contact with religious at an early age, that may have just as profound of an effect on leading to discern a call to priestly life as being an altar server.

Things are rarely as simple as A+B=C

 

[irishpatrick]

I am not arguing with God, unless you believe that you speak for him. I know the Pope stifled any further discussion on this point; did not realize I was talking with him. I do feel free to argue with the Church. It is how to get clarity; sometimes I change my mind, sometimes I don’t. As does everyone on this thread. As for the rest of your post, I suggest you take some more Church and world history lessons. Though I will admit that I was unaware of female religious molesting children; I will have to do more research on that.

I agree, most people will wrestle with both God and His Church at some point in their lives. For example, God renamed Jacob to Israel after their famous wrestling match. So, you are in good company.

However, no matter how much we wrestle with God and His Church, in the end, formal teachings of God and His Church will always remain no matter what fancy argument we pose. Women cannot be ordained–period. God ahead and argue with God and His Church about the matter, if you need to do so, yet in the end women will still not be able to be ordained.

 

[irishpatrick]

I understand completely the idea behind Altar servers being male leading to more priestly vocations. However, I think an argument could also be made that allowing females might lead to more vocations to the religious sisterhood. This could also lead to increased priestly vocations as so many sisters are involved in teaching. If young men are exposed to more contact with religious at an early age, that may have just as profound of an effect on leading to discern a call to priestly life as being an altar server.

Things are rarely as simple as A+B=C

I do not see how allowing girls to fill a male role will help them seek a female role?

 

[James924]

I am not arguing with God, unless you believe that you speak for him. I know the Pope stifled any further discussion on this point; did not realize I was talking with him.

I don’t think you understand: the Pope cannot change this teaching even if he wanted to. This is a matter of the nature of man. The Pope could not change this teaching anymore than he could change the teaching on marriage or contraception.

As for the rest of your post, I suggest you take some more Church and world history lessons.

That’s funny, the dissenter and “protest-ant” is telling others to take church and world history lessons. Are you saying that the church did define a doctrine of geo-centrism? Or that the Church doesn’t dignify woman more than any other religion on earth? Please tell me which history “lessons” you learned that from so I can be sure to avoid them.

I was unaware of female religious molesting children; I will have to do more research on that…

Why did you believe women were immune to this sin to begin with?

 

[James924]

I do not see how allowing girls to fill a male role will help them seek a female role?

I would add that in the 27 years of altar girls, there has been no significant revival of women religious vocation. It still seems to look as dismal as ever and I’d say 27 years is enough time to judge. On the other hand, the one thing that has increased in the 27 years of girl altar servers is the amount of women dissenting from church teaching, calling for female ordination and generally becoming confused about gender all together.

 

[irishpatrick]

I would add that in the 27 years of altar girls, there has been no significant revival of women religious vocation. It still seems to look as dismal as ever and I’d say 27 years is enough time to judge. On the other hand, the one thing that has increased in the 27 years of girl altar servers is the amount of women dissenting from church teaching, calling for female ordination and generally becoming confused about gender all together.

I agree. IMO, there is just too much gender bending today. The world flows much better when there are at least some fundamental differences between the sexes.

Men need to be men again.

 

[James924]

Men need to be men again.

this is a huge part of the problem. I can complain Here all day about feminism and liberalism and gender confusion, but who’s fault is it really? As long as men, especially my generation, keep acting like boys and sit around playing video games or watching tv or looking at porn instead of focusing on being fathers, husbands, spiritual leaders and servants of God, then none of this will change.

 

[irishpatrick]

this is a huge part of the problem. I can complain Here all day about feminism and liberalism and gender confusion, but who’s fault is it really? As long as men, especially my generation, keep acting like boys and sit around playing video games or watching tv or looking at porn instead of focusing on being fathers, husbands, spiritual leaders and servants of God, then none of this will change.

Exactly.

Today, women in their 20s are more “men” than the men are. The women have their act together, they are working, they are paying bills and being responsible…all things that men are supposed to be doing at that age.

Further, some men in their 20s today have a hard time (emotionally) just asking a woman out on a date, so oftentimes women ask the men. The sexes are rapidly reversing. Men are becoming more feminine, and women are becoming more masculine.

None of this is good–and little struggles like altar serving will not solve these problems, but it sure won’t hurt to return to sanity regarding the sexes.

 

[Brendan]

Our pastor has not allowed girls to serve at the altar. He, like the Church, recognizes that participation in altar service is a major factor in a man’s decision to accept a vocation.

As such, not only does he prohibit girls to serve at the altar, he personnally invites all boys, starting at age 5.

Almost every boy between 5 and 18 in our parish is an altar boy. And they are required to serve at every Mass they attend.

On a typical Sunday am Mass, we will have over 70 altar boys serving in various tasks. Some of the older boys present will be asked to lector instead of serve, so they get the experience of reading from the podium infront of large groups of people.

Each year He will also bring the altar boys aged 13 and higher for a day retreat to the seminary, so they will see the seminary, the dorm rooms, the class rooms. They will hear the vocations stories of several seminarians, eat the cafeteria, play basketball with the seminarians and, most importantly, attend Mass and say the Office with the seminarians.

The end result is that we have 1-2 men from our parish ordained EACH YEAR into the priesthood. ( this year we had two), we have had 12 men ordained in the last 10 years from a parish of 950-ish families.

And these men are taking this to their parishes. I know of 5 of those 12 who are pastors of parishes ( and 1 more who is an Assistant pastor) where only boys are admited to altar service.

 

[irishpatrick]

Our pastor has not allowed girls to serve at the altar. He, like the Church, recognizes that participation in altar service is a major factor in a man’s decision to accept a vocation.

As such, not only does he prohibit girls to serve at the altar, he personnally invites all boys, starting at age 5.

Almost every boy between 5 and 18 in our parish is an altar boy. And they are required to serve at every Mass they attend.

On a typical Sunday am Mass, we will have over 70 altar boys serving in various tasks. Some of the older boys present will be asked to lector instead of serve, so they get the experience of reading from the podium infront of large groups of people.

Each year He will also bring the altar boys aged 13 and higher for a day retreat to the seminary, so they will see the seminary, the dorm rooms, the class rooms. They will hear the vocations stories of several seminarians, eat the cafeteria, play basketball with the seminarians and, most importantly, attend Mass and say the Office with the seminarians.

The end result is that we have 1-2 men from our parish ordained EACH YEAR into the priesthood. ( this year we had two), we have had 12 men ordained in the last 10 years from a parish of 950-ish families.

And these men are taking this to their parishes. I know of 5 of those 12 who are pastors of parishes ( and 1 more who is an Assistant pastor) where only boys are admited to altar service.

Awesome that you are seeing vocations accepted.

 

[James924]

The end result is that we have 1-2 men from our parish ordained EACH YEAR into the priesthood. ( this year we had two), we have had 12 men ordained in the last 10 years from a parish of 950-ish families.

And these men are taking this to their parishes. I know of 5 of those 12 who are pastors of parishes ( and 1 more who is an Assistant pastor) where only boys are admited to altar service.

You just helped me sleep at night. That is outstanding stuff.

 

[Brendan]

Awesome that you are seeing vocations accepted.

That’s primarily due to my pastor’s general philosophy. It is very difficult to tell that early how God will call to the priesthood. So clearly the solution would be to expose every boy to the possibility, so that the ground is fertile if God chooses to plant the seed

Oh yea, and one other thing that our pastor does. He arranges a “Breakfast with the Bishop” every once and awhile, where older boys ( 16-18) and their fathers, are invited into the rectory to have breakfast with the bishop. That gives the boys an opportunity to meet and ask questions of the man they might choose to serve as priests. And it gives the bishop an opportunity to personally talk to prosective canidates.

 

[Brendan]

One of the two men ordained to the priesthood from our parish this year was actually ordained as a diocesan priest into the Diocese of Mogadishu, Somalia.

He felt called to the diocesan priesthood, but felt he should apply to serve in whatever diocese in the world that was in most need of priests.

It turned out to be Mogadishu.

The bishop is actually in exile in Djibouti, but the he and the priests regularly journey into Somalia to administer to the (few) Christians there.

 

[Dale_M]

The bishop is actually in exile in Djibouti, but the he and the priests regularly journey into Somalia to administer to the (few) Christians there.

As far as I know, the last bishop of Mogadiscio was Pietro Salvatore Colombo, O.F.M. He was murdered in his cathedral in 1989, and the culprit never caught. In the face of rapidly deteriorating security in Mogadiscio, a new bishop was never named. However, an apostolic administrator was assigned, and he is Giorgio Bertin, O.F.M. who is bishop of Djibouti.

As you mentioned, the known number of Catholics in Somalia is very small and the situation quite dangerous. Djibouti (a tiny country immediately north of Somalia along the coast) is safer, although it is heavily Muslim and Islam is the state religion. Regardless of the country, this is a dangerous corner of the world for Christians, and I will pray for this courageous new priest from Phoenix.

 

[Brendan]

Regardless of the country, this is a dangerous corner of the world for Christians, and I will pray for this courageous new priest from Phoenix.

He’s actually from my parish, which is in the Archdiocese of Detroit, but thanks for the prayers.

I really can’t imagine the guts it takes to do something like that.

 

[Inquiringperson]

I believe this is a nonsense statement. First of all, you don’t define what the “the spirit of Vatican II” is or how it led to a decline in the priesthood. Secondly, you completely ignore any other possible explanations, such as the revolutionary cultural and social changes which took place in Western societies following the close of World War II, the expansion of opportunities for young men hailing from immigrant communities which had long served as a breeding ground for priestly vocations, the social emphasis on a new way of relating between men and women in society, and a newer willingness to question religion and its values during the midpoint of the 20th Century. There could be a whole number of reasons other than the 2nd Vatican Council for the decline in priestly vocations. Pointing to one undefined reason for this decline is barely honest.

Sorry about that. “The Spirit of Vatican II” was a perversion of the Vatican II. Every perverted thing they did, they did in “the name of Vatican II”.