Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[blueadept]

In my particular diocese, we do not have any nuns tied to it so my girls do not have any role models in this regard so cutting out opportunities to be involved in their faith when they are younger seems counter productive in trying to keep our kids involved with their faith. My girls totally respect that the priesthood is for men but they would like opportunites as well to strenghthen their personal relationship with Christ so they can remain open to the idea if their calling is to be a nun or not. I would have a fight on my hands if our priest decided to only allow male altar servers (as well to the fact he would lose 50% of his current altar servers) since that my girls would more than likely close their consideration in being a nun or not even though they respect that only men should be priests.

My kids are on fire with their faith especially since just returning from World Youth Day in Madrid. A policy to restricting altar servers to only boys would not be helpful for me in raising them to stay open to a calling in regards to religious life.

 

[centurionguard]

Our pastor has not allowed girls to serve at the altar. He, like the Church, recognizes that participation in altar service is a major factor in a man’s decision to accept a vocation.

As such, not only does he prohibit girls to serve at the altar, he personally invites all boys, starting at age 5.

Almost every boy between 5 and 18 in our parish is an altar boy. And they are required to serve at every Mass they attend.

On a typical Sunday am Mass, we will have over 70 altar boys serving in various tasks. Some of the older boys present will be asked to lector instead of serve, so they get the experience of reading from the podium in front of large groups of people.

Each year He will also bring the altar boys aged 13 and higher for a day retreat to the seminary, so they will see the seminary, the dorm rooms, the class rooms. They will hear the vocations stories of several seminarians, eat the cafeteria, play basketball with the seminarians and, most importantly, attend Mass and say the Office with the seminarians.

The end result is that we have 1-2 men from our parish ordained EACH YEAR into the priesthood. ( this year we had two), we have had 12 men ordained in the last 10 years from a parish of 950-ish families.

And these men are taking this to their parishes. I know of 5 of those 12 who are pastors of parishes ( and 1 more who is an Assistant pastor) where only boys are admitted to altar service.

I just want to bring emphasis that this is an incredible achievement of service and devotion on behalf of your Pastor to do this with your Altar Boys.

WOW; if you only knew how much I’d like to see this in my entire Archdiocese.
No priest is that seriously involved when it comes to encouraging vocations.
Usually its an EMHC gentlemen who serves at keeping Altar boys and training during the year. The Diaconate program in our Archdiocese has been non-existent for well over a decade and there’s been no Ordinations from our Archdiocese in almost three decades.

You really don’t know how Blessed your parish is. No doubt a huge credit to your pastor. Congrats

 

[ishii]

this is a huge part of the problem. I can complain Here all day about feminism and liberalism and gender confusion, but who’s fault is it really? As long as men, especially my generation, keep acting like boys and sit around playing video games or watching tv or looking at porn instead of focusing on being fathers, husbands, spiritual leaders and servants of God, then none of this will change.

I agree. What started that culture? Why are men so obsessed with sex, sports, video games, etc. rather than being focussed on being fathers and husbands and servants of God?

 

[Inquiringperson]

I agree. What started that culture? Why are men so obsessed with sex, sports, video games, etc. rather than being focussed on being fathers and husbands and servants of God?

Secularism?

 

[Dale_M]

He’s actually from my parish, which is in the Archdiocese of Detroit, but thanks for the prayers.

I really can’t imagine the guts it takes to do something like that.

Me neither. Truly courageous and self-sacrificing as well. Setting aside the dangers, he will experience a harder life than if he had stayed in the US.

 

[Irish_Girl_68]

I’m glad a couple of posters brought up the idea of men being men again.

I personally think that 50 years of active feminism has done more to HURT women than it has ever done to help them. Women have become so independent that we have effectively told men we no longer need them. Heck, we don’t need them in our lives even to conceive a child. Why in the world would we need a man to help raise it?

But, that’s another thread.

I do hope that small things like this might translate into a return to more traditional gender roles. I think women would benefit in the long run.

 

[Z1Z2]

I do not see how allowing girls to fill a male role will help them seek a female role?

You obviously have not read the comments on the Diocese of Phoenix website. There is an excellent one by a young women who served at Mass when she was younger. No, it did not lead her to want to be a priest . She cited her time as a server as igniting her interest in her faith and now she serves in roles such as religious ed.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I’m glad a couple of posters brought up the idea of men being men again.

I personally think that 50 years of active feminism has done more to HURT women than it has ever done to help them. Women have become so independent that we have effectively told men we no longer need them. Heck, we don’t need them in our lives even to conceive a child. Why in the world would we need a man to help raise it?

But, that’s another thread.

I do hope that small things like this might translate into a return to more traditional gender roles. I think women would benefit in the long run.

i agree with you 100% as someone who was a teenager during the 1960’s and entered college in 1970. those were confusing times. in our homes, we were being taught conservative values, but women like gloria steinem and other feminists were filling our heads with other ideas. there was so much pressure to be a modern woman and foresake the values we were taught by our parents.

 

[irishpatrick]

You obviously have not read the comments on the Diocese of Phoenix website. There is an excellent one by a young women who served at Mass when she was younger. No, it did not lead her to want to be a priest . She cited her time as a server as igniting her interest in her faith and now she serves in roles such as religious ed.

I rarely read comments…no real point in that imo.

I am glad she has a stronger faith, yet her move into RE does not equate to men entering the Priesthood.

To be frank and honest, we do not need more involvement by women, we need more involvement by men. I am guessing that something like 90-95% of all tasks/offices/positions within the Church in the USA, are done by women (teachers, professors, principals, nuns, RE Catechists, office workers, lectors, music, choirs, etc.).

I think if someone did a survey, they would find that the pews are likely filled by a 60% to 40% female to male ratio, and I believe I am being generous with those numbers…it is likely worse.

I read a survey once that stated 75% of children who live in a home with a father who regularly practices their faith, will grow-up to practice their faith regularly. The reverse is true, 75% of those children who have an inactive (in their faith) father, will grow-up to be inactive.

The country, the world, and the Church, needs more involvement from men–not less!

 

[PaulinVA]

I am guessing that something like 90-95% of all tasks/offices/positions within the Church in the USA, are done by women (teachers, professors, principals, nuns, RE Catechists, office workers, lectors, music, choirs, etc.).

Well, if we’re being honest this is because the church refuses to pay a living wage to most of it’s workers and only women who are married or who have dedicated their life to living in poverty can afford to work in these situations.

The country, the world, and the Church, needs more involvement from men–not less!

No, just the Church. Men are still overrepresented in secular life.

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, if we’re being honest this is because the church refuses to pay a living wage to most of it’s workers and only women who are married or who have dedicated their life to living in poverty can afford to work in these situations.

No, just the Church. Men are still overrepresented in secular life.

Working for the Kingdom will never make one rich. Women going into those jobs often know they are going into a ministry, as well as employment–and men do the same thing (Priests and Deacons, Catechists, etc., do not exactly get wealthy off their vocations–it is a choice to serve the Lord).

There are thousands of Catholic school teachers who do so by choice (most are women), they could make more in the public school system, they choose not to go there. Paying the same as the secular world is utterly out of the question, the K-8 tuition rates alone would soar to 10k per year, per student, and higher. It would utterly wipe Catholic education off the map for all except the ultra-wealthy. As it is, the lack of Nuns and Priests today has caused tuitions rates to soar to $3,000-7,000 per year in most K-8 Catholic schools, it is already a huge sacrifice for parents to place their kids in Catholic schools.

Men are NOT overrepresented in secular culture in the USA (they used to be, not anymore, in fact things have reversed with that situation). However, men are way underrepresented in the Church, which is a huge problem. It is not good to have such imbalance.

BTW, women working in Catholic High Schools and Colleges and Hospitals, make pretty good salaries. Even in K-8 it is not a complete desert…I know of one female principal in a small k-8 Catholic school who ws making $106,000 per year!

 

[centurionguard]

Working for the Kingdom will never make one rich. Women going into those jobs often know they are going into a ministry, as well as employment–and men do the same thing (Priests and Deacons, Catechists, etc., do not exactly get wealthy off their vocations–it is a choice to serve the Lord).

There are thousands of Catholic school teachers who do so by choice (most are women), they could make more in the public school system, they choose not to go there. Paying the same as the secular world is utterly out of the question, the K-8 tuition rates alone would soar to 10k per year, per student, and higher. It would utterly wipe Catholic education off the map for all except the ultra-wealthy. As it is, the lack of Nuns and Priests today has caused tuitions rates to soar to $3,000-7,000 per year in most K-8 Catholic schools, it is already a huge sacrifice for parents to place their kids in Catholic schools.

Men are NOT overrepresented in secular culture in the USA (they used to be, not anymore, in fact things have reversed with that situation). However, men are way underrepresented in the Church, which is a huge problem. It is not good to have such imbalance.

BTW, women working in Catholic High Schools and Colleges and Hospitals, make pretty good salaries. Even in K-8 it is not a complete desert…I know of one female principal in a small k-8 Catholic school who ws making $106,000 per year!

** However, men are way underrepresented in the Church, which is a huge problem. It is not good to have such imbalance.**

Agreed. However; I have on occasion entertained the notion that (“just perhaps”) there might be a chastisement from God put on the entire Church.

Why do I say this? Because I don’t think God is happy the way everything is happening in the affairs of the Catholic Church. Both men and women share the burden of fault in this.

An ever growing lack of Morality in “all” of society brings reasonable credence to this suggestion. As with increasing failing Holiness amongst the Faithful.

 

[PaulinVA]

There are thousands of Catholic school teachers who do so by choice (most are women), they could make more in the public school system, they choose not to go there. Paying the same as the secular world is utterly out of the question, the K-8 tuition rates alone would soar to 10k per year, per student, and higher. It would utterly wipe Catholic education off the map for all except the ultra-wealthy.

Absolutely! That is why men are underrepresented in those positions, as well as in parish work. The parish or school won’t pay them for what their effort is worth, and they can’t support a family. It’s not because those darn women are trying to take over. It’s because the Church tries to convince people they agen’t getting paid a living wage because it’s a “ministry”.

Men are NOT overrepresented in secular culture in the USA (they used to be, not anymore, in fact things have reversed with that situation).

This is not what I see.

BTW, women working in Catholic High Schools and Colleges and Hospitals, make pretty good salaries. Even in K-8 it is not a complete desert…I know of one female principal in a small k-8 Catholic school who ws making $106,000 per year!

In my area, that is below the median salary for all workers! Colleges and Hospitals are more market based than parishes and parish schools, your example being an outlier.

 

[irishpatrick]

Agreed. However; I have on occasion entertained the notion that (“just perhaps”) there might be a chastisement from God put on the entire Church.

Why do I say this? Because I don’t think God is happy the way everything is happening in the affairs of the Catholic Church. Both men and women share the burden of fault in this.

An ever growing lack of Morality in “all” of society brings reasonable credence to this suggestion. As with increasing failing Holiness amongst the Faithful.

I agree and I have said many times that I believe we are in the midst of a minor chastisement that impacts all people, not just the Church.

 

[irishpatrick]

Absolutely! That is why men are underrepresented in those positions, as well as in parish work. The parish or school won’t pay them for what their effort is worth, and they can’t support a family. It’s not because those darn women are trying to take over. It’s because the Church tries to convince people they agen’t getting paid a living wage because it’s a “ministry”.

**==> Wrong. It is a ministry–period. No person is compelled into working for the Church, it is a choice. The teachers and others could just have easily looked for employment elsewhere, and they certainly could have found something over the years outside the Church. The vast majority stay because they love what they do–they know they are helping build God’s kingdom. **

Beyond that, I was not intending on arguing about women in the workforce. My point is that men are woefully underrepresented in the Church (the clergy is really the only exception). Women fill 90-95% of the positions, and most are by choice, not of need.

This is not what I see.

==> There are more six-figure jobs filled by women, more concessions made for women, more degrees and scholarships given and made by women…those are facts, not guesses. I am not saying that is wrong–but do not even think things are unfair for women now (not in the USA anyway). One has to be willing to get past the media spin to see and learn these clear facts. The cultural pendulum has swung from being against women, to be wholly favoring women and against men in general…hoepfully we will find a way to make it fair for both sexes.

In my area, that is below the median salary for all workers! Colleges and Hospitals are more market based than parishes and parish schools, your example being an outlier.

**$106,000 is below the median salary? Are you serious, or did I read it wrong? **

 

[dmorgan]

What we are beginning to see is the “Reform of the Reform” as it will play out in the western Churches. It is going to be noisy, ugly and at times vitriolic but this is a necessary cleansing that must be done. As we continue to see a decline in the proponents of the “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd, we can return the Church to the path that was desired by most of the Council attendees. The liberties that were taken after V-II are going to be rolled back and the Church will return to Her Rightful place. The changes did not happen over night and will not be reversed that way. The Holy Father is leading by example and those in the Priesthood who are listening are beginning to follow. Pray for the Holy Father and our Priests daily to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.

An interesting article on the Alter Server issue can be found here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/should-the-infamous-altar-girl-decision-be-reversed-wm-oddie-opines-wdtprs-polls-included/

Pax Christi

 

[irishpatrick]

What we are beginning to see is the “Reform of the Reform” as it will play out in the western Churches. It is going to be noisy, ugly and at times vitriolic but this is a necessary cleansing that must be done. As we continue to see a decline in the proponents of the “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd, we can return the Church to the path that was desired by most of the Council attendees. The liberties that were taken after V-II are going to be rolled back and the Church will return to Her Rightful place. The changes did not happen over night and will not be reversed that way. The Holy Father is leading by example and those in the Priesthood who are listening are beginning to follow. Pray for the Holy Father and our Priests daily to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.

An interesting article on the Alter Server issue can be found here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/should-the-infamous-altar-girl-decision-be-reversed-wm-oddie-opines-wdtprs-polls-included/

Pax Christi

Form that article, I found this line quite telling:
**
“…According to Fr Lankeit, 80 to 95 percent of priests served as altar boys…”**

Those are huge numbers and they should not be taken lightly or to just tossed aside as being meaningless.

 

[irishpatrick]

I know of a couple who placed their child in a Catholic School. Everything was fine for a few years, and then the school nearly doubled their tuition rates. The couple, along with many other families, had no choice, they left the school because they just could not afford the tuition. Now, in that case maybe the teachers got the extra money, but it came at cost of far less children being educated in their school and the school likely had less need for teachers, so not as many people were employed due to the lack of enrollment. That is a very high cost indeed.

 

[PaulinVA]

**$106,000 is below the median salary? Are you serious, or did I read it wrong? **

You read that correctly. I couldn’t quickly find the personal salary, but this is the median household income. Household is less than family - I don’t know what the difference is. There are a lot of communities/towns in the USA that are over $200K

Rank County Median household income 1 City of Falls Church, Virginia $113,313 2 Loudoun County, Virginia $112,021 3 Fairfax County, Virginia $104,259

 

[irishpatrick]

You read that correctly. I couldn’t quickly find the personal salary, but this is the median household income. Household is less than family - I don’t know what the difference is. There are a lot of communities/towns in the USA that are over $200K

Rank County Median household income 1 City of Falls Church, Virginia $113,313 2 Loudoun County, Virginia $112,021 3 Fairfax County, Virginia $104,259

Well, you must live in a very high cost of living area. The national median income is way less than 200k, nowhere near that number. Median salaries range from 40-60k per person, which means most two income families fall into the 80-120k range. Plus, I was not speaking of total family income, I was speaking about individual Catholic educators and a Catholic Principal making $106,000 per year is doing quite well against his/her Catholic peers.

According to the US Census Bureau, the median household income is about $51,425, and median income per person is about $27,041.

Go here:

davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php