Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Z1Z2]

Form that article, I found this line quite telling:
**
“…According to Fr Lankeit, 80 to 95 **percent of priests served as altar boys…”

Those are huge numbers and they should not be taken lightly or to just tossed aside as being meaningless.

I will be taking these numbers lightly until someone shows me the actual correlation between these two things. Just because one thing happened (men became priests) after another (they served as altar boys) does not mean the first thing caused the second. I could just as easily find a small sample size of men who used to be altar boys and find that 80-95% of that sample are NOT priests and conclude that being an altar boy makes a boy NOT grow up to be a priest. The figures quoted above, without further proof or explantion, have no particular value.

likewise “In the US, only one diocese now restricts serving at the altar to boys and men, Lincoln, Nebraska, and it is apparently the case that vocations there are higher than elsewhere.” also has no value without the proof to show the two things are linked. The are ways of showing that one thing actually CAUSED the other, not just that they happened in succession. As it is, this just says two things that those with a more traditional view point like to believe.

 

[Z1Z2]

I rarely read comments…no real point in that imo.

Why? Is your own view too weak to withstand outside influence?

I am glad she has a stronger faith, yet her move into RE does not equate to men entering the Priesthood.

Unless she continues to be strong in her faith, marries a nice Catholic boy and has a bunch of boys who can be encouragd to be priests. If you can accept such flimsy causality now, why it is a hard stretch to accept that altar girls just might grow up to produce more priests in the future?

The country, the world, and the Church, needs more involvement from men–not less!

Yes, I have also noticed the underrepresentation of men in postions of authority. We may need more priests, but really? Men need MORE involvement in the world and country? So we lack enough male politicians? Enough male business leaders? Enough male astronauts? Enough male news reporters? Enough male engineers? bit of a stretch to equate a lack of priests to a lack of male involvement in the world, don’t you think?

 

[irishpatrick]

I will be taking these numbers lightly until someone shows me the actual correlation between these two things. Just because one thing happened (men became priests) after another (they served as altar boys) does not mean the first thing caused the second. I could just as easily find a small sample size of men who used to be altar boys and find that 80-95% of that sample are NOT be priests and conclude that being an altar boy makes a boy NOT grow up to be a priest. The figures quoted above, without further proof or explantion, have no particular value.

likewise “In the US, only one diocese now restricts serving at the altar to boys and men, Lincoln, Nebraska, and it is apparently the case that vocations there are higher than elsewhere.” also has no value without the proof to show the two things are linked. The are ways of showing that one thing actually CAUSED the other, not just that they happened in succession. As it is, this just says two things that that those with a more traditional view point like to believe.

Of course you will not take strongly date that is meaningful.

Here is one from the USCCB:

One important trend evident in this study is the importance of lifelong formation and engagement in the Catholic faith,” said Archbishop Robert J. Carlson of St. Louis, chairman of the U.S. bishops’ Committee on Clergy, Consecrated Life and Vocations. “The role of the family, parish priest, friends, and youth ministry are evident in the results.” He noted that, along with their education and work experience, 71 percent of the Class of 2011 report they served as an altar server. “This seems to indicate that the involvement of youth in the Church’s activities, especially the liturgy, has a positive impact for their choice of a vocation.”

 

[irishpatrick]

Why? Is your own view too weak to withstand outside influence?

**==> Yes, you anaylzed me spot-on, ask around here, my views are just plain too weak. **

Unless she continues to be strong in her faith, marries a nice Catholic boy and has a bunch of boys who can be encouragd to be priests. If you can accept such flimsy causality now, why it is a hard stretch to accept that altar girls just might grow up to produce more priests in the future?

==> Boys tend to do things male oriented–that is just plain true. Many boys will avoid things that they consider to be a feminine role. If we lose even one Priest because of a social experiment, that is too many.

Yes, I have also noticed the underrepresentation of men in postions of authority. We may need more priests, but really? Men need MORE involvement in the world and country? So we lack enough male politicians? Enough male business leaders? Enough male astronauts? Enough male news reporters? Enough male engineers? bit of a stretch to equate a lack of priests to a lack of male in involvement in the world, don’t you think?

==> Go back and read my posts in their entirety, rather than cherry picking what you want to use to blast me. I applied my comments to the USA, not the world, and what is said was fully accurate…but honestly, I just don’t care if you accept that or not, because this is about whether or not girls should altar serve. I take it from your replies that you feel that girls should serve, okay, got it.

 

[Z1Z2]

Of course you will not take strongly date that is meaningful.

Because YOU say it is meaningful makes it so?? this is your opinion, nothing more. Simply saying a number that you well could have pulled from the air does not equal proof.

“This seems to indicate that the involvement of youth in the Church’s activities, especially the liturgy, has a positive impact for their choice of a vocation

.”

This is just another example of what I aready wanted proof to supprt!! This is his OPINION. I could come up with a sample of the same number of former altar servers as the incoming class and have 71% of the men NOT be priests. If there really is a causality - your whole argument - then WHY is is so hard to show the proof and not opinion? A good statistician could come up with the proof for your arguement, to show that there there really IS a connection. Has that been done?? Until then, this is just opinion, and I really hope it is not indicative of the caliber of the education those men are going to get in that seminary.

 

[irishpatrick]

Because YOU say it is meaningful makes it so?? this is your opinion, nothing more. Simply saying a number that you well could have pulled from the air does not equal proof.

**==> It was not a number I created. It was stated in the article. **

This is just another example of what I aready wanted proof to supprt!! This is his OPINION. I could come up with a sample of the same number of former altar servers as the incoming class and have 71% of the men NOT be priests. If there really is a causality - your whole argument - then WHY is is so hard to show the proof and not opinion? A good statistician could come up with the proof for your arguement, to show that there there really IS a connection. Has that been done?? Until then, this is just opinion, and I really hope it is not indicative of the caliber of the education those men are going to get in that seminary.

**==> Yes, an opinion that the USCCB found worthy enough to publish. **

**==> There is no rational debate against the fact that through history the altar server role has been used to encourage vocations. Vocations to the Priesthood can only happen with men. The fact that anywhere from 71-90+% of all Priests were also Altar Servers may not be “hard evidence,” but it sure is worthy of consideration (which was my point).

==> There is also no rational debate against the clear fact that most boys and young men tend to want to involve themselves in activities that they see as being male or masculine in nature. Introduce girls/females to the role, and some boys/young men will walk away. That is not a guess, there are plenty of cases you could find stating exactly that.

==> It also is meaningless to this discussion to state that girls/females might find enrichment in being altar servers, for no-one here is arguing against that–it seems obvious they would. However, what is being discussed here is whether or not girls/females should be altar servers if their presence negatively impacts boys from filling that role, which in turn could impact vocations to the Priesthood. We want to do everything we can to encourage vocations.

==> As for a study, no I don’t think there is one. But, I don’t know about you, I don’t need a scientific study to tell me that if I walk outside in the rain, I will get wet. Likewise, when I research this topic and find through history the altar server role was used to encourage vocations, and when I see the numbers people involved cite today, and when I add the all too obvious fact that boys tend to masculine activities, and when I put it all together my common sense tells me that a study is NOT needed. But, for some, a study is always needed. **

 

[Brendan]

I I could just as easily find a small sample size of men who used to be altar boys and find that 80-95% of that sample are NOT priests and conclude that being an altar boy makes a boy NOT grow up to be a priest. The figures quoted above, without further proof or explantion, have no particular value. .

You are attempt to reverse the causailty.

One could legitmately state that a large percentage of those who are astronauts were pilots first.

And one could legitimately state that the large majority of pilots are not astronauts.

What we can derive from that data is that if we want to give a person the greatest likelihood of becoming an become an astronaut, we should provide them with flight training first.

So the data provided by the rector is correct.

And, as I mentioned in a previous post, we do not know who God will call. What we can do is to make the ground as fertile for a call as we possibly can. And the Church has recognized altar service as a significant factor in assisting those boys who do recive a call to respond positively.

And it is more than just the opinion of one man. The Church itself has looked at this issue, and has an incredibly large sample set of priests to work with.

This is the conclusion that they came to

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, **not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations **(cf. ibid.)

-CDWDS “Letter on Altar Servers” July 2001
adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

 

[irishpatrick]

You are attempt to reverse the causailty.

One could legitmately state that a large percentage of those who are astronauts were pilots first.

And one could legitimately state that the large majority of pilots are not astronauts.

What we can derive from that data is that if we want to give a person the greatest likelihood of becoming an become an astronaut, we should provide them with flight training first.

So the data provided by the rector is correct.

And, as I mentioned in a previous post, we do not know who God will call. What we can do is to make the ground as fertile for a call as we possibly can. And the Church has recognized altar service as a significant factor in assisting those boys who do recive a call to respond positively.

And it is more than just the opinion of one man. The Church itself has looked at this issue, and has an incredibly large sample set of priests to work with.

This is the conclusion that they came to

-CDWDS “Letter on Altar Servers” July 2001
adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

You said it better than I did… thank you.

 

[ringil]

I like boys only at the altar but it’s really small beans if you ask me. It’s the choice of the pastor so if he wants it that way well fine with me.

When my daughter is older if I am at a parish that allows it then I will encourage her to serve if not, then oh well. There are bigger fish to fry than this. . . . .

 

[Califman831]

What we are beginning to see is the “Reform of the Reform” as it will play out in the western Churches. It is going to be noisy, ugly and at times vitriolic but this is a necessary cleansing that must be done. As we continue to see a decline in the proponents of the “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd, we can return the Church to the path that was desired by most of the Council attendees. The liberties that were taken after V-II are going to be rolled back and the Church will return to Her Rightful place. The changes did not happen over night and will not be reversed that way. The Holy Father is leading by example and those in the Priesthood who are listening are beginning to follow. Pray for the Holy Father and our Priests daily to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.

An interesting article on the Alter Server issue can be found here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/should-the-infamous-altar-girl-decision-be-reversed-wm-oddie-opines-wdtprs-polls-included/

Pax Christi

Amen Brother Amen

 

[irishpatrick]

I like boys only at the altar but it’s really small beans if you ask me. It’s the choice of the pastor so if he wants it that way well fine with me.

When my daughter is older if I am at a parish that allows it then I will encourage her to serve if not, then oh well. There are bigger fish to fry than this. . . . .

If the presence of girl altar servers causes there to be a loss of just one man from entering a vocation as a Priest, then that is one less pair of hands to bring us the Lord in the Eucharist, one less Priest to hear confessions, one less Priest to batpize, to marry, to annoint the sick. one less man of Holy Orders to teach, guide and direct the faithful. We need more Priests, not less.

With each rejected vocation that list applies.

One drop of rain can do no harm–yet a thunderstorm filled with drops of rain can lead to flooding and ruin. Big fish were once small fish that were simply allowed to grow.

 

[ringil]

If the presence of girl altar servers causes there to be a loss of just one man from entering a vocation as a Priest, then that is one less pair of hands to bring us the Lord in the Eucharist, one less Priest to hear confessions, one less Priest to batpize, to marry, to annoint the sick. one less man of Holy Orders to teach, guide and direct the faithful. We need more Priests, not less.

With each rejected vocation that list applies.

One drop of rain can do no harm–yet a thunderstorm filled with drops of rain can lead to flooding and ruin. Big fish were once small fish that were simply allowed to grow.

I just don’t equate boys exclusively at the altar to vocations. Yes, most priests were altar boys but having girls at the altar doesn’t mean boys won’t serve. Indeed, a young boy with even a passing interest in the priesthood will want to serve. I served and I thought I wanted to be a priest but such was not God’s plan for me.

Again, I like the tradition of male altar servers and if Rome restricted girls from serving I would be fine with that.

I just don’t see folks here taking the lead from Rome. I just follow them. Whatever they decide is fine with me. I’m a layman. I prefer to pay, pray, and obey.

 

[irishpatrick]

I just don’t equate boys exclusively at the altar to vocations. Yes, most priests were altar boys but having girls at the altar doesn’t mean boys won’t serve. Indeed, a young boy with even a passing interest in the priesthood will want to serve. I served and I thought I wanted to be a priest but such was not God’s plan for me.

Again, I like the tradition of male altar servers and if Rome restricted girls from serving I would be fine with that.

I just don’t see folks here taking the lead from Rome. I just follow them. Whatever they decide is fine with me. I’m a layman. I prefer to pay, pray, and obey.

Okay, so you want to go with Rome, I will join you. Let’s look at it:

The Vatican does allow for female altar servers, yet not in all circumstances, as follows:

The Vatican has stated that females cannot serve at the Traditional Mass.

The Vatican has stated that the decision to allow females to serve at the altar lies in the hands of each Diocesan Bishop. Bishops are not bound to allow females to serve.

The Vatican, through its letter in 1994 on the subject, states the following: ***“It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.” ***​

So, while Rome allows females to serve in the NO Mass, it does so under the understanding that Bishops are not bound to that rule and that Bishops can ban females from serving. Rome also states that females cannot serve at Traditional Masses, and it also restates the historic value of encouraging males to serve at the altar in order to help foster vocations.

The Holy See’s recommendation is to retain the traditional practice of having boys serve, yet provides Bishops the authority to allow girls. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of females serving–imo.

 

[PaulinVA]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

I’ll give you just a few points:

1. To say that X% of priests were altar servers means nothing. It’s like saying a certain number of people my age became CEOs because they had a lemonade stand at one point in their childhood. We all did! In my Catholic grade school, we were all altar boys at one point or another. You can’t say it caused a certain behavior, because the majority of boys who were altar servers did not become priests.
2. I know of many parents my age who, in the last 10 to 15 years, have refused to allow their boys to be altar boys. I don’t have to spell out why.
3. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”
4. Being able to interact with both sexes as people of equal worth in the sight of God is a good thing for a boy to learn.

 

[Tsuwano]

Okay, so you want to go with Rome, I will join you. Let’s look at it:

The Vatican does allow for female altar servers, yet not in all circumstances, as follows:

The Vatican has stated that females cannot serve at the Traditional Mass.

The Vatican has stated that the decision to allow females to serve at the altar lies in the hands of each Diocesan Bishop. Bishops are not bound to allow females to serve.

The Vatican, through its letter in 1994 on the subject, states the following: ***“It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.” ***​

So, while Rome allows females to serve in the NO Mass, it does so under the understanding that Bishops are not bound to that rule and that Bishops can ban females from serving. Rome also states that females cannot serve at Traditional Masses, and it also restates the historic value of encouraging males to serve at the altar in order to help foster vocations.

The Holy See’s recommendation is to retain the traditional practice of having boys serve, yet provides Bishops the authority to allow girls. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of females serving–imo.

Perhaps not a ringing endorsement, but an endorsement nevertheless. It provides Bishops with the option of allowing female servers or not and acknowledges that there is nothing which theologically prevents females from serving the priest at the altar. After all, since females have washed and ironed altar linens for years, and even took on the duty of washing the body of our crucified Lord, I see no reason why they can’t serve the priest at the liturgy.

 

[James924]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

I’ll give you just a few points:

1. To say that X% of priests were altar servers means nothing. It’s like saying a certain number of people my age became CEOs because they had a lemonade stand at one point in their childhood. We all did! In my Catholic grade school, we were all altar boys at one point or another. You can’t say it caused a certain behavior, because the majority of boys who were altar servers did not become priests.
2. I know of many parents my age who, in the last 10 to 15 years, have refused to allow their boys to be altar boys. I don’t have to spell out why.
3. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”
4. Being able to interact with both sexes as people of equal worth in the sight of God is a good thing for a boy to learn.

This post is laughable. Unsupported conclusions? How about the entirety of the past 3 decades? Nobody is saying that the altar boy issue is the only issue contributing to a lack of vocations, but it is one of many, and a significant one. And to refer to serving at the altar as simply playing dress-up is disgusting.

Service at the altar DOES provide an awesome opportunity to contemplate the priesthood and having girls there HAS diminished the motivation for boys to be part of it all.

There are a thousand avenues in which boys have the opportunity to work with girls; to pretend that this “working with girls” thing makes boy and girl altar servers necessary is just plain silly and unrealistic. Girls were admitted to serving atthe altar as a result of the liberalization of the culture, not because boys were lacking opportunities to learn about working with girls. To pretend otherwise is simply dishonest.

Irishpatrick is not hard to have a conversation with. No, it’s hard to have conversations with people who stand in the middle of a postconciliar wasteland of almost 0 vocations to priesthood and religious life compared to 50 yrs ago, 30% mass attendance, 30% belief in transubstantiation, 10% fidelity to teaching on contraception, etc etc and pretend all along that everything is fine and that people who say “hey let’s try goig back to what worked” are out of their mind.

 

[PaulinVA]

This post is laughable.

:tsktsk:

Unsupported conclusions? How about the entirety of the past 3 decades? Nobody is saying that the altar boy issue is the only issue contributing to a lack of vocations, but it is one of many, and a significant one. And to refer to serving at the altar as simply playing dress-up is disgusting.

That’s not at all what I said. Not at all. The theme of that paragraph is that there is much more to the priestly vocation besides Mass.

Service at the altar DOES provide an awesome opportunity to contemplate the priesthood and having girls there HAS diminished the motivation for boys to be part of it all.

Generalization.

There are a thousand avenues in which boys have the opportunity to work with girls; to pretend that this “working with girls” thing makes boy and girl altar servers necessary is just plain silly and unrealistic. Girls were admitted to serving at the altar as a result of the liberalization of the culture, not because boys were lacking opportunities to learn about working with girls. To pretend otherwise is simply dishonest.

Once again, you are missing the point. Girl altar servers are not necessary - you are right in that. But, also, Mass goes on even without boy altar servers, too. Mass goes on with no altar servers. However, I was responding to the assertion that boys, who someday we hope will become priests, can not fulfill their simple duties as altar servers if girls are present. I question that attitude and the kinds of boys/men it attracts.

 

[filiae]

I attend Ss. Simon and Jude Cathedral in Phoenix every Sunday. It is my parish. From first hand experience, Fr. Lankeit is a wonderful priest. I agree with him on his stance on altar boys only. Besides altar boys only, he encourages everyone to receive Holy Communion on the tongue. And most do. He also encourages frequent Confession. He insists on silence before and after Mass and of course during Mass. His sermons are wonderful and leaves one with much to think about. He has been a Godsend. I am very grateful that he is our Pastor.

 

[irishpatrick]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

I’ll give you just a few points:

1. To say that X% of priests were altar servers means nothing. It’s like saying a certain number of people my age became CEOs because they had a lemonade stand at one point in their childhood. We all did! In my Catholic grade school, we were all altar boys at one point or another. You can’t say it caused a certain behavior, because the majority of boys who were altar servers did not become priests.
2. I know of many parents my age who, in the last 10 to 15 years, have refused to allow their boys to be altar boys. I don’t have to spell out why.
3. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”
4. Being able to interact with both sexes as people of equal worth in the sight of God is a good thing for a boy to learn.

Watching you ignore the statements published by Vatican, and those made people who know far better than we do, also makes it very difficult to have a rational conversation.

However, your number 3 above is a vile response, and I simply will not take this conversation any further with someone who can say things like that. That one response (number 3) also fully demonstrates your lack of understanding of the true central importance of the Mass to each Catholic and to the world.

Yet, I do thank you for the chat.

 

[irishpatrick]

I attend Ss. Simon and Jude Cathedral in Phoenix every Sunday. It is my parish. From first hand experience, Fr. Lankeit is a wonderful priest. I agree with him on his stance on altar boys only. Besides altar boys only, he encourages everyone to receive Holy Communion on the tongue. And most do. He also encourages frequent Confession. He insists on silence before and after Mass and of course during Mass. His sermons are wonderful and leaves one with much to think about. He has been a Godsend. I am very grateful that he is our Pastor.

Sounds awesome.