Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[via_media]

misogyny. pure and simple.
despite my belief in women’s ordination I believe the teaching of the catholic church regarding the priesthood should be respected.
but how can anyone respect a decision not to let little Girls serving their God at the Altar…I’m sorry but I think the situation in the Catholic Church is becoming deplorable. in the future I’m afraid Catholicism and Islam will have even more in common!

 

[NewsTheMan]

Getting back to the issue of excluding girls/women from serving at the altar, for the expressed reason that this would increase priestly vocations among boys. I find this a spurious argument.

One post noted that a Nebraska parish where girls/women are excluded as altar servers, there are many priestly vocations. This post assumes that excluding girls/women from serving is the reason why there are so many vocations. I find this a simplitic assumption of cause and effect. I am sure, more is being done to encourage boys to consider the prieshood than simply excluding girls/women from the altar.

This drive toward exclusivity in the Church is bothersome simply because Jesus, himself, did not believe in exclusivity. Are we not to believe and behave as he believed and behaved? Jesus was always breaking the rules in favor of acceptance and love. He cared for people and wanted them to feel accepted and loved. He cared for women and did not see them as “unclean.” (Note the story of the woman with the 12 year hemorrhage who touched the hem of his robe. As a good Jew, he would have been contaminated, ritually unclean, and he would have had to go to the Mikvah to restore hs cleanliness. He did not do any of that. Instead, he turned to the woman and said, “Your faith has saved you.” She had broken the rules, yet Jesus treated her kindly and healed her.)

Why are we so quick to applaud exclusivity? We are not an exclusive club. We invite everyone to come to the table.

The problem, once again, as I mentioned earlier, is that we are not God. Jesus was God. Yes, we are to be like Jesus. Sinless. Loving. Compassionate. But we are not God. Jesus didn’t have to do certain things we have to. Jesus was a Jew, but since the Jewish faith was about relating to God, and God came to fulfil the law, it would make no sense for Jesus to carry on certain traditions that He intended to change. He has that authority, we don’t.

Why are you so quick to think that exclusivity is necessarily always wrong? You know that little place we go when we die? Yeah, that’s an exclusive club too. Friends of God only. Furthermore, the local Carmelite Convent is exclusively female. Darn. I thought everybody could come to the table? Christianity seems to be exclusive too. I need to actually worship Jesus Christ. Darn, guess I can’t go on worshipping Pikachu.

We do not have a right to these things, they are gifts. Everything is a gift from God. Only the liberal agenda would like us to believe that everything that we want we can have because it is our right.

You forget the context of the times, Jesus culture as Jew. Many things have changed in 2000 years. We no longer dress the same, eat the same, or need healing miracles – we have medical care now – and they didn’t have the same level of knoweldge then. Remember Jesus was not about rigid rules, He was all about loving and caring for one another.

Jesus was not about rigid rules? Could you explain that? I believe He was about rigid rules, since caring and loving doesn’t exclude rules. In fact, caring and loving means we have to have and abide by rules. I seem to remember Jesus being extremely concerned about doing God’s will and keeping His commandments. Remember, they were commandments - not suggestions or preferences.

 

[NewsTheMan]

misogyny. pure and simple.

Was Jesus a misogynist?

in the future I’m afraid Catholicism and Islam will have even more in common!

 

[StAnastasia]

misogyny. pure and simple.

Regrettably, yes.

 

[StAnastasia]

Remember Jesus was not about rigid rules, He was all about loving and caring for one another.

True. Jesus broke the rule about healing the the sabbath. He refused to be browbeaten by Pharisees into observing rules for rules’ sake.

 

[StAnastasia]

One post noted that a Nebraska parish where girls/women are excluded as altar servers, there are many priestly vocations. This post assumes that excluding girls/women from serving is the reason why there are so many vocations. I find this a simplitic assumption of cause and effect. I am sure, more is being done to encourage boys to consider the prieshood than simply excluding girls/women from the altar.

Yes, that is a very weak argument. We serve at the altar to serve God and the Catholic community, non because it is a stepping stone to the priesthood!

 

[Brendan]

Here is Pope Benedict with girl servers,

That’s nice. But at St. Peter’s (and in his private chaple), the servers are all boys.

 

[Brendan]

This is what confuses me.

Altar boys are not serving as ‘priests in training’ - but serving the priest during Mass.

The point is, they SHOULD be considered to be priests in training. Or more specifically, giving them greater insights into the priestly role so that the ground for a vocation is more fertile.

Getting ALL young people more involved only strengthens our Church - it is especially difficult now to ‘take back’ this role - what discussions will take place in families where an older sister served and a younger one can not?

Several former altar boys from my parish are now pastors. They are doing exactly what you state and it’s working well.

4 of them have instituted policies where current girls may continue to serve, but no new ones will be admitted.

Just because you see difficulty in doing so does not imply that others will find it difficult.

 

[NewsTheMan]

True. Jesus broke the rule about healing the the sabbath. He refused to be browbeaten by Pharisees into observing rules for rules’ sake.

You’ve twisted Jesus’ message here and the story in the Gospel.

Jesus was God. Firstly. Secondly, in Matthew 23 Jesus gives good reason for his actions and goes on to call the Pharisees hypocrites, for a reason. Jesus wasn’t reproving the Pharisees for their strict adherence to the Law. Rather, he reproved them for their hypocrisy, for play-acting, for faking it in their walk with God. They were careful to look on the outside like they were carrying out God’s Law, while their hearts and motives remained filthy. Jesus pointed out here that some parts of the Law are “weightier” than others. In other words, some parts of the Law have priority over others. In keeping the Law, then, obedience in the “weightier” parts should take priority. This does not, however, excuse us from doing the rest.

In fact, Jesus didn’t break the law on the Sabbath, he actually understood it and applied it better than anybody else!

 

[Brendan]

One post noted that a Nebraska parish where girls/women are excluded as altar servers, there are many priestly vocations. .

Actually, the post referred to an entire DIOCESE in Nebraska ( Lincoln) where girls are prohibited from servering and have a large number of vocations.

I also mentioned my parish (in the the Archdiocese of Detroit), where we have a similar policy.

Out of a parish of 950-ish families, we have had 12 men ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years, and 8 more in the seminary.

 

[StAnastasia]

Does the man, not following the calling have any responsibility? A young man, called by God to serve as a priest will chose another life path because of girl altar servers? If this is all it would take to keep him from following God’s calling - is this really a loss?

If a young man shrinks from considering the priesthood because there are girls present at the altar and because priesthood might involve liturgical contact with females, I say good riddance to that candidate.

I’m always puzzled over prayers for vocations in our parish Masses. If anyone would be concerned over the loss of vocations since the 1960s, I assume it would be God. Since She/He has not been increasing vocations since the 1960s, perhaps God knows the number of priests we need better than we do, and is trimming down the priestly ranks to prepare for a declining Church.

 

[Tigg]

misogyny. pure and simple.

Really?

And would you also say that it is misandry, pure and simple, that motivates the radical feminist movement, often led by women religious who rage against a patriarchal Church and claim male dominance because they cannot be ordained?

In her book, Ungodly Rage, Donna Steichen documents the feminist network in the Catholic Church and shows how they systematically worked to increase the feminine presence on the altar - even to circulating petitions to allow girl servers.

 

[StAnastasia]

In her book, Ungodly Rage, Donna Steichen documents the feminist network in the Catholic Church and shows how they systematically worked to increase the feminine presence on the altar - even to circulating petitions to allow girl servers.

Good for them. In many parishes it enlightened the consciousness of people to the fact that women are indeed a full part of the Church.

 

[4elise]

But how come young ladies serving at the altar are not covering their head as commanded by the Bible? Isn’t this giving a bad example since it shows that we don’t have to follow the Bible, but that we can make up our own rules in this case? As we see the icons and statues of Mary, the Mother of God, we always see her head covered.

this is a different issue - the religious sisters, and the women in the pews aren’t covering their heads

 

[StAnastasia]

this is a different issue - the religious sisters, and the women in the pews aren’t covering their heads

Not in our parish either. However, the statute of Mary in our parish represents a Caucasian mother of God.

 

[Tigg]

Good for them. In many parishes it enlightened the consciousness of people to the fact that women are indeed a full part of the Church.

They are hostile to church teaching and claimed that if large numbers of Catholics would disobey the law, the Church would be forced to legitimatize their agenda of married priests, women priests, contraception and abortion. One dissident nun was quoted as saying, “One of the basic principles of change is that practice precedes law.”

You may believe that anger, rebellion and disregard for the Apostolic Tradition is good - I think (as a woman) I’ll just stick to the practice of obedience and humility and submit my heart and my faith to the revealed truth.

 

[StAnastasia]

You may believe that anger, rebellion and disregard for the Apostolic Tradition is good

I don’t recall having said that.

I think (as a woman) I’ll just stick to the practice of obedience and humility and submit my heart and my faith to the revealed truth.

 

[StAnastasia]

I’ll just stick to the practice of obedience and humility and submit my heart and my faith to the revealed truth.

I don’t know that revelation has ruled out female altar servers…

 

[Brendan]

I don’t know that revelation has ruled out female altar servers…

Well,

The Holy Spirit revealed that all people owe humble obedience to the Church, not only in matters of faith and morals, but in governance

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world

Pastor Aeternus - Vatican I

And since the Church has decreed that bishops and pastors may refuse to admit girls into altar service, we, as Catholics under true obedience.

That is what happened in Phoenix, that is what has happened in Lincoln, at St. Peter’s, in my parish and in several more who have recieved pastors from the men my parish has seen ordained.

So that is the response to your question about how to ‘take back’ this role. The bishop or pastor simply needs to declare it, and we give the true obedience that Vatican I called for.

 

[StAnastasia]

And since the Church has decreed that bishops and pastors may refuse to admit girls into altar service, we, as Catholics under true obedience.

What a coincidence that the rule that only males may serve was written by – guess what? – males!

So that is the response to your question about how to ‘take back’ this role.

I never asked a question about “how to ‘take back’ this role.” Those are your words, not mine.

The bishop or pastor simply needs to declare it, and we give the true obedience that Vatican I called for.

Some will obey it; others will vote with their feet or their pocketbooks. If people withhold from the collection, God may make up the difference.