Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Brendan]

Brendan, female altar servers enrich the life of our parish – girls see that “religion” is not just “boy stuff” of which they are not in integral part. And our seminary is doing just fine, thank you!

How many men from you parish are in the seminary currently?

How many men from your parish have been ordained in the last few years?

 

[StAnastasia]

How many men from you parish are in the seminary currently?

How many men from your parish have been ordained in the last few years?

A couple; it’s a small parish.

 

[Brendan]

A couple; it’s a small parish.

Did you mean a couple in the seminary now?, or a couple ordained in the last few years?

 

[Corki]

Brenden, Thank you for answering. I just don’t understand your logic, or your refusal to discuss the everyday life of a priest and how serving at the altar offers a look into that.

PaulinVA,

I think that’s the point. Some people see what the priest does in terms of time. That’s the only way to come up with a “top 10 list” that puts budgeting and “mundane tasks” into the ranks of the most important things a priest does. But the most important thing a priest does is bring the Sacraments. Serving at the altar brings boys and young men closer to that reality and, hopefully, a little further from just looking at what takes up the priest’s time.

Perhaps you could list the top ten jobs/tasks/roles of being a priest, and how serving at Mass for an hour every week gives a young man an insight into those ten jobs/tasks.

Be sure to include administration, hospital visits, budgeting, planning, and other mundane tasks that take up so much time and energy.

Serving at the altar does not give a young man an insight into the tasks a priest does. It gives a young man insight into part of what a priest** is**.

 

[StAnastasia]

Did you mean a couple in the seminary now?, or a couple ordained in the last few years?

Seminary.

 

[StAnastasia]

Did you mean a couple in the seminary now?, or a couple ordained in the last few years?

Ours is very family-oriented parish (with a Catholic school attached.) I suspect most kids want to grow up to become parents and start families of their own, not live alone in a rectory (I know that’s the case with my own two sons.) But some may well hear the priestly call later in life.

 

[wisdomseeker]

We all play a great role in the Church and the greatest of all is obedience to God and His precepts. Fighting the Church is fighting God. I dont think we would want to do that.

We live in such a chaotic world and the reason is because we want to do what we want to do. we dont need any more chaos specially within the Church of the Living God.

People have forgot about obedience and replaced with equality.

God must be weeping over this evil generation. His wrath will come in due time. God hates disobedience. It is a shame that our sheppards no longer have courage to speak against the evil in the hearts of men. Women have no place in the Sanctuary.

 

[StAnastasia]

wisdomseeker;8334574]We all play a great role in the Church and the greatest of all is obedience to God and His precepts. Fighting the Church is fighting God. I dont think we would want to do that.

Quite right.

We live in such a chaotic world and the reason is because we want to do what we want to do. we dont need any more chaos specially within the Church of the Living God.

We are lucky in my parish – there is no chaos. The altar girls and altar boys are very well trained, and our liturgies proceed without any chaos. Occasionally there is a tiny slip-up, but the priests gently remind the children and correct the problem.

God must be weeping over this evil generation.

I doubt any more than any other generation.

His wrath will come in due time.

In what form do you think the divine wrath will be manifest?

God hates disobedience.

Really? I think God is a bit more relaxed than you fear.

It is a shame that our sheppards no longer have courage to speak against the evil in the hearts of men. Women have no place in the Sanctuary.

That’s an opinion! I don’t think you would like my parish, or my community in general. We’re lucky that you and I each have parishes we find congenial and spiritually uplifting.

 

[Brendan]

Ours is very family-oriented parish (with a Catholic school attached.)

OK, do you think that vocations only come from parished that are NOT family friendly?

I suspect most kids want to grow up to become parents and start families of their own, not live alone in a rectory (I know that’s the case with my own two sons.) But some may well hear the priestly call later in life.

Would it not be appropriate for the parents and pastor to teach the kids to be open to what GOD wants them to do?

That really is what is important, is it not? For the ground of their souls to be fertile ground for whatever God desires of them?

If your sons feel that what God most desires of their life is to be husbands and fathers, that is certainly fine. But their ‘wants’ should be for what God calls them to, and nothing less and nothing different.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, one of the two men from our parish that was Ordained this year felt called to be ordained as a diocesan priest in whatever diocese needed priests the most.

It turned out to be the Diocese of Mogadishu, Somalia. He was ordained into that diocese last May. His ministry is now trying to attend to the spiritual needs of the few Christians remaining there, and praying he does not get caught by Islamic radicals, pirates or the various warlords in the process.

Are your sons willing do go to that level to be where God calls them to be, doing what God calls them to do?

And if not, what are you doing to get them to be THAT open to God’s call?

 

[StAnastasia]

OK, do you think that vocations only come from parished that are NOT family friendly?

No.

Would it not be appropriate for the parents and pastor to teach the kids to be open to what GOD wants them to do?

Certainly that would be appropriate.

That really is what is important, is it not? For the ground of their souls to be fertile ground for whatever God desires of them?

Certainly.

If your sons feel that what God most desires of their life is to be husbands and fathers, that is certainly fine. But their ‘wants’ should be for what God calls them to, and nothing less and nothing different.

If God want’s them to be priests, no doubt they will hear the call.

It turned out to be the Diocese of Mogadishu, Somalia. He was ordained into that diocese last May. His ministry is now trying to attend to the spiritual needs of the few Christians remaining there, and praying he does not get caught by Islamic radicals, pirates or the various warlords in the process.

I will pray for him.

Are your sons willing do go to that level to be where God calls them to be, doing what God calls them to do?

I assume so.

And if not, what are you doing to get them to be THAT open to God’s call?

Being good parents.

 

[Brendan]

And there are more options that 'living alone in a rectory".

There is living in community in a friary, for example. The religious life is not a lonely one,

 

[Brendan]

If God want’s them to be priests, no doubt they will hear the call. .

If the ground is fertile. God wants all people to hear his word, but tells us that some will not heed the call

Read the parable of the sower.

Some calls fall on the road to be trampled, some fall among weeds and are choked.

The goal of the parent and pastor is to make the ground fertile, so the call takes root.

Being good parents.

I’m sure you and your spouse are great role models of married life. But what have you done to make the ground fertile for other callings (other than assuming it will ‘just happen’)

Have your sons toured the seminary and spent time with the seminarians, hearing their stories? Have they met your bishop and discussed the priestly life with them.

Our pastor does all that for our altar boys (see previous posts for more detail)

 

[StAnastasia]

Have your sons toured the seminary and spent time with the seminarians, hearing their stories? Have they met your bishop and discussed the priestly life with them.

No, I would not arrange such a tour unless my son asked for it. If they shows an interest while at university I will certainly not stand in the way of him exploring it. So far neither son has an interest in the priesthood, despite the older one having been an exemplary altar server. At this point in their development they are interested not in pursuing celibacy but in exploring relationships with female friends (as well as keeping up with their male friends).

 

[Brendan]

No, I would not arrange such a tour unless my son asked for it. If they shows an interest while at university I will certainly not stand in the way of him exploring it.

Interesting. You won’t show them a seminary unless they express an interest.

Is that not like exposing them to the Gosple of Christ until they expressed an interest?

Would it not be a sign of being a ‘good parent’ to expose them to all the reasonable options that God might ask of them, so they can recognize their calling?

Have you told your sons that being so poor that you cannot even call the cowl and habit you wear your own would be a wonderful way to spend one’s life? If not, why not?

 

[PaulinVA]

Serving at the altar does not give a young man an insight into the tasks a priest does. It gives a young man insight into part of what a priest** is**.

And I still disagree.

Reducing a priest to the times he is saying Mass, hearing confessions, or Anointing the sick is reducing him to a dispenser of Sacraments and nothing else. Priests lives are much more complex than that. As we spoke of dozens of posts ago, the ultimate expression of the priesthood is saying Mass. But there is so much more to it. They reach people every day.

My position is that, yes, I believe that young men are led to believe that their altar serving experience is a path to the priesthood, but that is doing them a disservice. I think that the Bishops are lacking in preparing diocesan priests for parish life and for supporting them once they are ordained.

Up until last year my diocese didn’t even have a class for priests/pastors to learn basic budgeting and accounting principals, even though parishes here have million dollar plus budgets.

 

[StAnastasia]

Interesting. You won’t show them a seminary unless they express an interest.

When did I say that?

Is that not like exposing them to the Gosple [sic] of Christ until they expressed an interest?

No. They are exposed to the Gospel by having attended Mass since birth.

Would it not be a sign of being a ‘good parent’ to expose them to all the reasonable options that God might ask of them, so they can recognize their calling?

We do expose them to all sorts of things. They have probably visited more universities, seminaries, and monasteries than you ever will. If God calls them to be priests, God will make the calling apparent. Give God a bit more credit for cleverness than you do!

Have you told your sons that being so poor that you cannot even call the cowl and habit you wear your own would be a wonderful way to spend one’s life? If not, why not?

No, I haven’t. If that is important to you, tell your own children.

 

[Brendan]

And I still disagree.

Yes I know. You have already expressed the opinion that you have a better understanding about the role of the altar server than Rome does.

Reducing a priest to the times he is saying Mass, hearing confessions, or Anointing the sick is reducing him to a dispenser of Sacraments and nothing else. Priests lives are much more complex than that. As we spoke of dozens of posts ago, the ultimate expression of the priesthood is saying Mass. But there is so much more to it. They reach people every day.

Paul, the priesthood is an ontological change. What you describe as a ‘dispenser of the Sacraments’ is not what a priest DOES, but who the priest IS. The priesthood, like all the ontological marks, changes who the person IS. And that is what altarboys need to see. Not what a priest DOES but what visible marks the ordination provides.

My position is that, yes, I believe that young men are led to believe that their altar serving experience is a path to the priesthood, but that is doing them a disservice.

Could you explain how assisting a young man in discerning what God’s wills for his life is somehow a ‘disservice’

I think that the Bishops are lacking in preparing diocesan priests for parish life and for supporting them once they are ordained.

Up until last year my diocese didn’t even have a class for priests/pastors to learn basic budgeting and accounting principals, even though parishes here have million dollar plus budgets.

How is that important. Our pastor hired a business manager ( a retired accountant) to manage the budget. So my pastor’s role is to see that the diocesan policies are followed in regular audits.

That frees up my pastor to hear confessions a half hour before every Mass, and to say 3 daily weekday Masses ( 7:00am , 9:00am and noon). Plus hear Confessions and offer Annointings at various hospitals and nursing homes.

None of which the business manager (or anyone else in the parish) can do…

So would you really rather see my pastor cut out a few Masses so he can do bookkeeping instead?

 

[PaulinVA]

Yes I know. You have already expressed the opinion that you have a better understanding about the role of the altar server than Rome does.

Brenden, I am having this discussion with you, not with Rome. But yes, there is a certain amount of “corporate think” going on about altar servers that is not challenged.

Paul, the priesthood is an ontological change. What you describe as a ‘dispenser of the Sacraments’ is not what a priest DOES, but who the priest IS. The priesthood, like all the ontological marks, changes who the person IS. And that is what altarboys need to see. Not what a priest DOES but what visible marks the ordination provides.

I am saying that yes, he is a ‘dispenser of Sacraments’ but he is so much more than that, on a practical, everyday level.

Could you explain how assisting a young man in discerning what God’s wills for his life is somehow a ‘disservice’

Brenden, don’t twist my words. I’m saying that assisting a young man in discerning God’s will by telling him that serving at the altar gives him a view of all a priest is/does is doing him a disservice on a practical level.

How is that important. Our pastor hired a business manager ( a retired accountant) to manage the budget. So my pastor’s role is to see that the diocesan policies are followed in regular audits.

That frees up my pastor to hear confessions a half hour before every Mass, and to say 3 daily weekday Masses ( 7:00am , 9:00am and noon). Plus hear Confessions and offer Annointings at various hospitals and nursing homes.

None of which the business manager (or anyone else in the parish) can do…

So would you really rather see my pastor cut out a few Masses so he can do bookkeeping instead?

That’s not what I said. The pastor is responsible for the running of the Parish. He isn’t expected to do the bookkeeping or mop the floors or plan the religious education program. But - he is responsible for those functions. He is responsible to the Bishop and I would hope he feels responsible to his parishioners. For some pastors, that is a greater burden than holding a dying person’s hand and dealing with the family’s grief. He needs to devote time and energy to those mundane things.

 

[Brendan]

Brenden, I am having this discussion with you, not with Rome. But yes, there is a certain amount of “corporate think” going on about altar servers that is not challenged.

But I conform my opinion to that of Rome. As I mentioned before, Rome has recieved the insights from all the bishops of the world. That is a ‘database’ of vocation ‘stories’, a larger sample set than you or I could ever accumulate. So on what bases would you challenge Rome’s determination that altar service by boys encourages vocations.

Would you expect me to buy into your challenge simply on your personal opionion?

I am saying that yes, he is a ‘dispenser of Sacraments’ but he is so much more than that, on a practical, everyday level.

Again,

Brenden, don’t twist my words. I’m saying that assisting a young man in discerning God’s will by telling him that serving at the altar gives him a view of all a priest is/does is doing him a disservice on a practical level.

But I never said that serving at the altar give him a view of ALL a priest does. What I said was that is what the priest IS, one who dispenses Grace in the form of the Sacraments. That is the very purpose of Sacerdotal Orders.

That’s not what I said. The pastor is responsible for the running of the Parish. He isn’t expected to do the bookkeeping or mop the floors or plan the religious education program. But - he is responsible for those functions. He is responsible to the Bishop and I would hope he feels responsible to his parishioners. For some pastors, that is a greater burden than holding a dying person’s hand and dealing with the family’s grief. He needs to devote time and energy to those mundane things.

Then why bring up a budget class if that is not what you expect the priest to be doing?

Can not the diocese support the priest in this way by offering financial management services? In our diocese, those services are offered.

In that way, it frees the priest to Absolve and Annoint the dying person, to do what God Ordained them to do.

 

[PaulinVA]

But I conform my opinion to that of Rome.

I do not discuss things here with people who say that arguing with them is arguing with Rome. Thank you for your time.