Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[terrig]

I’ve been reading the Old Testament and only men served around God’s altar. And then it was only certain men - Aaron’s sons. Jesus also chose men to be his apostles. If He had wanted to make a big impact, why didn’t he chose a woman to preach to the Gentiles instead St. Paul? This doesn’t mean women are less in God’s eyes. The only human being (not divine) that has been allowed into Heaven with a glorified body is a woman, Mary.

 

[Karenfern]

azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2011/08/21/20110821phoenix-catholic-diocese-girl-servers.html

Gee! for once it looks like one Catholic Archdiocese has there Wits about them trying to promote and inspire boys becoming young men into the Priesthood

The bishop is a fool and he will wind up alienating whole families, driving them out of the cathedral and into the parishes, costing the cathedral needed contributions and generally making himself look hatedful. How does refusing a role to girls lead to male vocations and to female vocations to consecrated life? This is the 21st century. Women are eduated. Women run much of parish life. Women can tell the bishop what to do with himself if they want. The role of nuns, even cloistered nuns, is no longer submissive. If I recall, even back in the 16th century, Teresa of Avila told a priest what do do with his opinion of her reform of her order. She cracked up laughing in church. Women will continue to regard the absurd as absurd.

 

[Karenfern]

As an altar boy living in the Diocese of Phoenix, I am glad Father John has decided to stop girls from being an altar servers. I have been discerning the priesthood, and I’m dismayed that there are no seminaries in Arizona. If more men goes to seminaries, maybe the state of Arizona can finally get a seminary.

Fear of women is not a good start for discernment of the priesthood. If you go in there fearing women, you will be dangerous to both men **and **women both as homilist and as confessor.

 

[Karenfern]

Amen, to the bishop. I am a woman and have no need to be in the Sanctuary or boss the Leaders of the Church. God speaks to man, He did so always.

Women trying to lead is a worldly thing and temptation and must be put aside such to obey our Lord.

As a woman, i say that if women want to become a nun, they must seek the convent. they must seek other nuns for inspiration and not the priests.
To me it is ackward to see girls sitting side by side with a priests. to see priests washing women’s feet. this is very worldly.

VII never allow girl altar servers. JPII give in to feminists pressure and allowed. now they know that is not a good to go agianst God’s plan.

If God thought women good enough to be the mother of God, I am sure God thinks women are good enough to serve at the altar. Your attitude is frightening.

 

[rlg94086]

The bishop is a fool and he will wind up alienating whole families, driving them out of the cathedral and into the parishes, costing the cathedral needed contributions and generally making himself look hatedful.

I don’t know about that. Our parish priest implemented a boys-only rule for altar servers years ago, and our numbers increased - not just because of that, of course. We also have many more altar servers - 4-8 per Mass. The bishop’s actions may just be a positive step in restoring some traditional aspects of our faith. A lot of people like that.

 

[NewsTheMan]

The bishop is a fool and he will wind up alienating whole families, driving them out of the cathedral and into the parishes, costing the cathedral needed contributions and generally making himself look hatedful. How does refusing a role to girls lead to male vocations and to female vocations to consecrated life? This is the 21st century. Women are eduated. Women run much of parish life. Women can tell the bishop what to do with himself if they want. The role of nuns, even cloistered nuns, is no longer submissive. If I recall, even back in the 16th century, Teresa of Avila told a priest what do do with his opinion of her reform of her order. She cracked up laughing in church. Women will continue to regard the absurd as absurd.

Firstly, I have reported your post for calling His Excellency a fool. Nobody deserves that. Secondly, talk about women being educated etc is a red herring. Nobody says they aren’t, and nobody says women aren’t equal or valuable. Lastly, your suggestion that the laity control the Bishop is in itself laughable and a total misunderstanding of how things work in the Church. Catholics obey Bishops, who serve us. He doesn’t take a vow to obey the laity

Fear of women is not a good start for discernment of the priesthood. If you go in there fearing women, you will be dangerous to both men **and **women both as homilist and as confessor.

Where did he say he feared women? Good grief, you’re reading so much into that post I’m not even sure you’ve quoted the correct post.

 

[NewsTheMan]

If God thought women good enough to be the mother of God, I am sure God thinks women are good enough to serve at the altar. Your attitude is frightening.

As is yours, since nobody except those who are indignant at the decision has said anything of the sort. Nobody said women aren’t good enough. Not a single person. Not the Bishop, not the priest, not the laity. Nobody.

 

[StAnastasia]

The bishop is a fool and he will wind up alienating whole families, driving them out of the cathedral and into the parishes, costing the cathedral needed contributions and generally making himself look hatedful. How does refusing a role to girls lead to male vocations and to female vocations to consecrated life? This is the 21st century. Women are eduated. Women run much of parish life. Women can tell the bishop what to do with himself if they want. The role of nuns, even cloistered nuns, is no longer submissive. If I recall, even back in the 16th century, Teresa of Avila told a priest what do do with his opinion of her reform of her order. She cracked up laughing in church. Women will continue to regard the absurd as absurd.

Karenfern, I suspect that’s why our own bishop wouldn’t dare do such a thing. There were rumours when he was appointed ghat he was going to prohibit women from serving at the altar, and he did tell me when he came to our parish on his first visit that he greatly dislikes the practice. (It is pretty clear that he does not like women at all, but hje tolerates them.) However, when we saw how much our parish loves and respects women, and the leadership role that girls have in the server program and in training younger boys, he recognised that pursuing a ban on female altar serveres would have a very destructive effect. Reason and pragmatism prevailed over ideology, and he has quietly dropped his campaign throughout the diocese.

StAnastasia

 

[Karenfern]

I don’t know about that. Our parish priest implemented a boys-only rule for altar servers years ago, and our numbers increased - not just because of that, of course. We also have many more altar servers - 4-8 per Mass. His actions may just be a positive step in restoring some traditional aspects of our faith. A lot of people like that.

Altar service should be on the basis of merit and not on the basis of an anatomical appendage.

You worship at the base of a statue of one of the great women of all time but you relegate women to a subservient role. Do you understand the bizarre thinking behind that. If you banish girls from the altar, the statue of the Virgin should be banished to the closet. The tradition of the church is articulated by St. Paul in that magnificent verse in Galatians about in Christ there is neither male nor female and yet you say it’s okay to treat girls like lesser beings. You then expect her to have the self-esteem to resist early sexual behavior, contraception and abortion? Have you the right to do that to a woman who is still part child?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Altar service should be on the basis of merit and not on the basis of an anatomical appendage.

You worship at the base of a statue of one of the great women of all time but you relegate women to a subservient role. Do you understand the bizarre thinking behind that. If you banish girls from the altar, the statue of the Virgin should be banished to the closet. The tradition of the church is articulated by St. Paul in that magnificent verse in Galatians about in Christ there is neither male nor female and yet you say it’s okay to treat girls like lesser beings. You then expect her to have the self-esteem to resist early sexual behavior, contraception and abortion? Have you the right to do that to a woman who is still part child?

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, based on the bold. Oh, and your exegesis is shocking. So St.Paul was saying that as an ontological reality there is no such thing as male and female? Yeah right. You’re taking this too far and I have a feeling you don’t actually care about this issue at all, nor about female altar servers. You just want to say your piece and get in on the action of bashing a few good Catholics [which is not to say that if you allow female altar servers you are a bad Catholic, so don’t read into what I just said].

This thread is getting sad.

 

[Brendan]

I do not discuss things here with people who say that arguing with them is arguing with Rome. Thank you for your time.

What I am saying that I have accepted that Rome has more data on the subject than I (or anyone else that I am aware of) on the subject of the role of altar service in encouraging vocations to the priesthood.

I have therefore accepted Rome’s statement as the most authoritative on the subject.

If you have access to more data than Rome has, I would like to see it.

Otherwise, I cannot accept you and your opinion as authoritative.

 

[goldangel]

Ironically enough my uncle was in the novitiate for 4 years and left b/c he did not like the way women were spoken about and treated. He didn’t see sexual abuse of any kind and he didn’t say anything about illicit sexual activity, but he saw attempts to create an all-male enclave from which women were excluded. When I asked him why he left after putting in so much effort he said that when he’d have my grandmother (his mother) visit, he didn’t like the way she was treated which was that as a woman she was inferior. That is exactly what he said and why he left.

eta I think it is better by far to leave before you become a priest if you are unhappy with it.

 

[Brendan]

… and yet you say it’s okay to treat girls like lesser beings.

Where has anyone stated that acceptance into altar service makes one a superior being to others?

That is the corrolary for your claim that not being accepeted to altar service is indicative of being a lesser being.

 

[rlg94086]

Altar serviceshould be on the basis of merit and not on the basis of an anatomical appendage.

What merit is required to be an altar server?

You worship at the base of a statue of one of the great women of all time but you relegate women to a subservient role. Do you understand the bizarre thinking behind that. If you banish girls from the altar, the statue of the Virgin should be banished to the closet. The tradition of the church is articulated by St. Paul in that magnificent verse in Galatians about in Christ there is neither male nor female and yet you say it’s okay to treat girls like lesser beings. You then expect her to have the self-esteem to resist early sexual behavior, contraception and abortion? Have you the right to do that to a woman who is still part child?

So…are you an advocate for priestesses?

No one is “relegating women to a subservient role” or treating girls like “lesser beings.”. Good grief. There are plenty of ways to serve the Lord, and the daughters in our parish are doing just fine on the self-esteem front. Male altar servers have not caused an increase in promiscuity, contraception and abortion here.

 

[StAnastasia]

Ironically enough my uncle was in the novitiate for 4 years and left b/c he did not like the way women were spoken about and treated. He didn’t see sexual abuse of any kind and he didn’t say anything about illicit sexual activity, but he saw attempts to create an all-male enclave from which women were excluded.

goldangel, misogyny has no place in society or in the Church.

When I asked him why he left after putting in so much effort he said that when he’d have my grandmother (his mother) visit, he didn’t like the way she was treated which was that as a woman she was inferior. That is exactly what he said and why he left.

 

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by StAnastasia
… However, the statute of Mary in our parish represents a Caucasian mother of God.

And that is another issue too!

FYI, one of the statues of Mary in our parish is Our Lady as she appeared at Lourdes. She chose to appear as a Caucasian, so that is how the statue depicts her.

The other statue is Our Lady of Guadalupe. She chose to appear as an Aztec Indian, so that is how that statue depicts her.

If we had a statue of Our Lady of La Vang, the statue would be as she appeared there, as an Oriental.

If Our Lady chose to appear as a certain race, who are any of us to state that she was wrong to do so?

 

[StAnastasia]

FYI, one of the statues of Mary in our parish is Our Lady as she appeared at Lourdes. She chose to appear as a Caucasian, so that is how the statue depicts her.

That is, Caucasian is how Bernadette imagined Mary looked! (I don’t think there is photographic proof of the visitation)

 

[Brendan]

That is, Caucasian is how Bernadette imagined Mary looked! (I don’t think there is photographic proof of the visitation)

Would you tell Bernadette that her image is wrong. Or perhaps the villagers in Knock, or the Vietnamese in La Vang?

And we also have ‘photographic’ proof of Our Lady’s appearance to St. Juan Diego.

So is your objection to Mary appearing as anything other than a Mediterranean, so the image of Our Lady as an Aztec should be altered before it should be allowed in a parish.

Or is your objection restricted to images of our Lady as described by Bernadette or the villagers at Knock?

 

[rlg94086]

That is, Caucasian is how Bernadette imagined Mary looked! (I don’t think there is photographic proof of the visitation)

You sound like Thomas.

 

[StAnastasia]

Would you tell Bernadette that her image is wrong. Or perhaps the villagers in Knock, or the Vietnamese in La Vang?

Of course not. People depict God and the saints in ways that are familiar and comfortable to them., I encourage you to read Jaroslav Pelikan’s Jesus through the Centuries, in which Pelikan writes of how Africans depict Jesus as African, and Japanese depict him as Japanese.

And we also have ‘photographic’ proof of Our Lady’s appearance to St. Juan Diego.

It’s not photographic.

So is your objection to Mary appearing as anything other than a Mediterranean, so the image of Our Lady as an Aztec should be altered before it should be allowed in a parish.

Now you’re being tendentious and silly.

Or is your objection restricted to images of our Lady as described by Bernadette or the villagers at Knock?

More silliness. I never voiced an objection of any sort.