Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[rlg94086]

Of course not. People depict God and the saints in ways that are familiar and comfortable to them., I encourage you to read Jaroslav Pelikan’s Jesus through the Centuries, in which Pelikan writes of how Africans depict Jesus as African, and Japanese depict him as Japanese.

It’s not photographic.

Now you’re being tendentious and silly.

More silliness. I never voiced an objection of any sort.

So, why did you originally make this comment:

… However, the statute of Mary in our parish represents a Caucasian mother of God.

I think Brendan is justified in inferring a disapproval on your part regarding the racial depiction of Mary in your parish. If that wasn’t what you were implying, why add the “Caucasian” qualifier?

 

[StAnastasia]

I think Brendan is justified in inferring a disapproval on your part regarding the racial depiction of Mary in your parish.

No, he was not justified in so inferring.

If that wasn’t what you were implying, why add the “Caucasian” qualifier?

Because the image is represented as Caucasian. Mary of Nazareth was genetically Semitic. We humans tend to represent God and the saints in our own genetic image.

 

[rlg94086]

No, he was not justified in so inferring.

Sure he was. Even if he inferred wrong, he was still justified. Normal people don’t refer to the race of her statue unless they are making a particular point about her race. Most that due that have a problem with it.

Because the image is represented as Caucasian. Mary of Nazareth was genetically Semitic. We humans tend to represent God and the saints in our own genetic image.

Oh, okay - as long as you are consistent.

I’m sure a fellow parishioner would think you were a little off when you ask, “which Mary do you have a devotion to? Caucasian Mary, Asian Mary, Aztec Mary or Semite Mary?”

 

[Brendan]

Because the image is represented as Caucasian. Mary of Nazareth was genetically Semitic. We humans tend to represent God and the saints in our own genetic image.

Just to clarify, do you have any issue whatsoever with Mary being depicted as a Caucasian, Aztek, Vietnamese or whatever?

I know 4elise indicated that it was an issue.

Assuming that I was incorrect and it is not an issue with you, why would anyone mention the apparent race of an statue?

Why should anyone care?

 

[StAnastasia]

Sure he was. Even if he inferred wrong, he was still justified. Normal people don’t refer to the race of her statue unless they are making a particular point about her race. Most that due that have a problem with it.

No - he was not justified. We are a multi-ethnic parish, so the manner in which our iconography reflects our cultural assumptions is a legitimate topic of conversation. If I lived in Norway a Nordic Jesus or Mary probably would raise little comment.

I’m sure a fellow parishioner would think you were a little off when you ask, “which Mary do you have a devotion to? Caucasian Mary, Asian Mary, Aztec Mary or Semite Mary?”

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

This thead is way off topic. Please get back on the topic of the OP

 

[StAnastasia]

Just to clarify, do you have any issue whatsoever with Mary being depicted as a Caucasian, Aztek, Vietnamese or whatever?

No.

I know 4elise indicated that it was an issue.

 

[Brendan]

We are a multi-ethnic parish, so the manner in which our iconography reflects our cultural assumptions is a legitimate topic of conversation. If I lived in Norway a Nordic Jesus or Mary probably would raise little comment.

 

[Tweetypie664]

I am a female and I was an Alter Server for years in the early 70s. I live in Phoenix and there are girl Alter Servers

 

[Brendan]

I am a female and I was an Alter Server for years in the early 70s. I live in Phoenix and there are girl Alter Servers

Yes, there are altar girls in the diocese, just not at the Cathedral anymore (see the OP)

 

[goldangel]

I did know one priest who left just after his 40th jubilee, saying that he had tried that path for 40 years and had not been fulfilled. He left to get married (surprisingly) to a woman. He is now fulfilled and happy. I don't know why it took him so long to find contentment.

 

[StAnastasia]

StAnastasia;8337211:

my uncle was with the marian fathers novitiate which was near our home; at one point he lived with it and it was just 5 minutes away, with other locations as well. he studied for 4 years and was trying to figure out what to do -whether go on or quit - when he left. from what I understand the marian fathers is respected in general, so maybe it was not a good local group.

I’m sorry the priest left but glad he is happy at this point.

goldangel, if you mean the Marianists, I have some good friends in that order. I don’t know which novitiate your uncle was in, nor what the nature of the hostility to his mother was. All priests and novices have mothers!

 

[Brendan]

FYI, there is an upcoming ordination here in Detroit.

Here is what this man had to say was his inspiration to pursue a vocation.

Deacon Bechill says it was the example of his pastor there from 1994-98, Fr. Leo Broderick , that inspired him to discern a vocation to the priesthood.

“I began altar serving the same year he came to the parish, when I was in the fourth grade. It was very special to me to be there at the altar with him, and to learn what the Mass is and why the Mass is so important,” he says.

themichigancatholic.com/2011/09/new-priest-to-be-ordained-sept-14/

That is further proof that Rome is correct.

 

[Tsuwano]

FYI, there is an upcoming ordination here in Detroit.

Here is what this man had to say was his inspiration to pursue a vocation.

themichigancatholic.com/2011/09/new-priest-to-be-ordained-sept-14/

That is further proof that Rome is correct.

It certainly is possible for boys to be inspired to become priests while serving a priest at the altar, but it isn’t necessarily so. Some boys may be inspired to become firefighters. Whatever a boy may be inspired to become, it doesn’t serve as a valid argument for prohibiting girls from serving a priest at the altar. If it is a valid argument, then those boys who wish to become firefighters should be prevented from serving as well.

 

[Brendan]

It certainly is possible for boys to be inspired to become priests while serving a priest at the altar, but it isn’t necessarily so. Some boys may be inspired to become firefighters. Whatever a boy may be inspired to become, it doesn’t serve as a valid argument for prohibiting girls from serving a priest at the altar. If it is a valid argument, then those boys who wish to become firefighters should be prevented from serving as well.

Your point was covered earlier in the thread. The example I used was pilots. Just about every astronaut started out as a pilot. But not all pilots became astronauts.

But if we wanted more astronauts, a good start would be to get more eligiable people into flight school.

Girls aren’t eligible for this type of calling, so if just one boy who otherwise would have answered a call declines it, then no amount of service by the girls could ever cover that.

The Vatican has noted that a large majority of priestly vocations come from boys who serve at the altar. Many of those, like Deacon Dave, list altar service as a large influence on their decision to accept the Call from God.

Girls can never have that call, while just about any boy could be one that will recieve a calling.

So it therefore behoves anyone who is interested in seeing more vocations to follow Rome’s advice and to encourge groups of boys as altar servers.

As far as if it is a good argument or not, I trust Rome’s analysis of the data. The Vatican has more insights into this than any other organization there is.

 

[louis91766]

Girls can never have that call, …

How do you know whether or not sometime in the future the Catholic Church may change its teaching and allow women priests. They used to teach in favor of burning heretics and now they have changed and say that any type of capital punishment is wrong. They used to teach that women should be silent in Church, but now women can be readers. They have changed a lot of other things also, like whether or not a Jew can be saved.

 

[rlg94086]

How do you know whether or not sometime in the future the Catholic Church may change its teaching and allow women priests. They used to teach in favor of burning heretics and now they have changed and say that any type of capital punishment is wrong. They used to teach that women should be silent in Church, but now women can be readers. They have changed a lot of other things also, like whether or not a Jew can be saved.

It can never happen. The Church has made that clear. It is de fide teaching - not discipline.

 

[Tsuwano]

Your point was covered earlier in the thread. The example I used was pilots. Just about every astronaut started out as a pilot. But not all pilots became astronauts.

But if we wanted more astronauts, a good start would be to get more eligiable people into flight school.

Girls aren’t eligible for this type of calling, so if just one boy who otherwise would have answered a call declines it, then no amount of service by the girls could ever cover that.

The Vatican has noted that a large majority of priestly vocations come from boys who serve at the altar. Many of those, like Deacon Dave, list altar service as a large influence on their decision to accept the Call from God.

Girls can never have that call, while just about any boy could be one that will recieve a calling.

So it therefore behoves anyone who is interested in seeing more vocations to follow Rome’s advice and to encourge groups of boys as altar servers.

As far as if it is a good argument or not, I trust Rome’s analysis of the data. The Vatican has more insights into this than any other organization there is.

Your point is well taken, though I do not think serving as a server at the altar is the equivalent of flight school for a pilot. That, I believe, would be the seminary. I agree with your point that we should encourage groups of boys to serve their community as altar servers. I do not think such encouragement precludes girls from also serving as altar servers. Rome’s advice to encourage boys in this area does not mean we need to discourage girls, even if they do not have a call to priesthood.

 

[louis91766]

It can never happen. The Church has made that clear. It is de fide teaching - not discipline.

Is it infallible, like the infallible teaching on the Immaculate Conception?

 

[rlg94086]

Is it infallible, like the infallible teaching on the Immaculate Conception?

Yes.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.