Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[qui_est_ce]

Jumping in here. I think you missed the part where her father was an Anglican who converted to Catholicism. He never was a Catholic priest.

I didn’t miss that part at all. I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion of Catholic boys discerning the priesthood. She said parents might be reluctant to let the family name die out (leaves out reason why this would be), then later she says priesthood and parenthood are not incompatible and cites her father’s Anglican priesthood as an example.

How does an Anglican convert who was never a Catholic priest set an example that Catholic boys can be both Catholic priest and biological parent?

Maybe I’ve just had a long day. uch:

 

[mlund]

This is not necessarily the case, as you present it.

No. It is exactly to case as I presented it. If a properly qualified candidate for the position can be employed then it should be done. Only if no one so qualified can be found should a parish turn to a girl volunteer out of dire necessity.

That should not negatively reflect on the girl who volunteers. Stepping up to help the Church in a time of need is extremely noble and it should give the boys and parents of the parish great pause to reflect on the dire circumstances.

Nobody is asking anybody but the priest or bishop to preside over the mass. Further, not all deacons go on to become priests; many men feel called to become permanent deacons. What’s more, not every parish has instituted acolytes and spare deacons at its disposal. Sometimes the laity participates out of necessity.

All of which is completely redundant to what I already said.

After all, the role of the Lector is properly that of a Deacon.

I believe that is incorrect. The serving Deacon’s role in the Liturgy of the Word is actually to read the Gospel. Lectors conduct the other readings. This used to be the role of the Subdeacon before the major order of the subdiaconate was ended in the Latin Church.

In my diocese, there are perhaps six deacons, for well over seventy parishes. Having a layman, or just as often, a laywoman, give the readings is the only practical way to have a mass at every parish on every sunday.

The lack of proper numbers of deacons and priests speaks to our collective failure, as a people, to properly nurture religious vocations in our young men. If anything it should be a clarion call to step up and show that we take these traditions seriously.

Excellent, save that it is my understanding that two altar servers are required at minimum for mass to proceed, and it seems to be a chore for my parish to put together that many on anything more than a once-weekly basis.

And that’s a horrible shame.

Father P has often said he would offer a daily mass were it not for a lack of available servers through the week.

If you are blessed with such an able priest and an opportunity then thank God judiciously and find that man altar servers - boys first, girls as needed.

For example, at the 10:30 AM Wednesday mass, often the only one in the week… should we pull the young boys from their classes to come serve?

Frankly the answer is “yes - if it won’t seriously adversely effect the child’s education.” A shared burden would be easier, or an earlier or later daily Mass.

The real point here is that you make do with what you have, but never let yourself fall into the trap of thinking confusing what is with what is right.

• Marty Lund

 

[HerrZJA]

No. It is exactly to case as I presented it. If a properly qualified candidate for the position can be employed then it should be done. Only if no one so qualified can be found should a parish turn to a girl volunteer out of dire necessity.

That should not negatively reflect on the girl who volunteers. Stepping up to help the Church in a time of need is extremely noble and it should give the boys and parents of the parish great pause to reflect on the dire circumstances.

Okay. So your disagree with me where, then?

All of which is completely redundant to what I already said.

Granted.

I believe that is incorrect. The serving Deacon’s role in the Liturgy of the Word is actually to read the Gospel. Lectors conduct the other readings. This used to be the role of the Subdeacon before the major order of the subdiaconate was ended in the Latin Church.

Granted. I’m neither a cannon lawyer nor a catechetical scholar. It would also explain why, in my parish, the lay lector reads the other readings and Fr. P. gives the gospel reading.

The lack of proper numbers of deacons and priests speaks to our collective failure, as a people, to properly nurture religious vocations in our young men. If anything it should be a clarion call to step up and show that we take these traditions seriously.

It’s not always a lack of vocations, you understand. Sometimes, it’s demographics. I teach first-grade Catechism at the parish as a sort of understudy to the parish DRE. At present, a grand total of three students are enrolled in my class. The numbers aren’t much higher at the other grades. Why? There aren’t that many children in the parish. The vast number of parishoners are men and women 45-50+ with children grown, graduated, and moved away. It’s not a lack of young boys who care, it’s a lack of young boys!

And that’s a horrible shame, as you say.

If you are blessed with such an able priest and an opportunity then thank God judiciously and find that man altar servers - boys first, girls as needed.

Which is what I’m advocating. Thanks for the tip. I forgot how human resources works.

Frankly the answer is “yes - if it won’t seriously adversely effect the child’s education.” A shared burden would be easier, or an earlier or later daily Mass.

Hey, you know, that’s not a bad idea. An evening mass, even, would be better.

The real point here is that you make do with what you have, but never let yourself fall into the trap of thinking confusing what is with what is right.

• Marty Lund

Sorry, I wasn’t arguing the metaphysics, I was arguing the reality. The world functions on the IS first and the RIGHT as a theoretical construct.

 

[rlg94086]

Or poor taste…especially from one that is going to be a deacon…

Poor taste? You are just being overly sensitive. The He-Man Woman Hater Club is from The Little Rascals. I thought I would throw in a little levity in a thread where posters are accusing men, including priests and bishops, of being afraid of females and/or trying to exclude them from having any roles in the Church. Faced with such nonsense, a little humor was warranted.

 

[Corki]

Excellent, save that it is my understanding that two altar servers are required at minimum for mass to proceed, and it seems to be a chore for my parish to put together that many on anything more than a once-weekly basis. Father P has often said he would offer a daily mass were it not for a lack of available servers through the week.

If your priest is using lack of servers as an excuse not to say daily Mass, you have a much bigger problem than lack of servers. We are a small rural parish. At daily Mass, there are usually no servers. We have Mass every, single day unless Father is required to attend some meeting at the chancery or if he is ill.

 

[Corki]

But a kindly explanation from him would ease that, would help me to understand.

Do you attend Mass at the Phoenix cathedral? All we have here is the public statement. If there are girls serving, I am willing to bet they have been given a thorough explanation. The fact that the Bishop did not explain his decision to your personal satisfaction is irrelevant.

As good parents, we always try to explain to our children why they can or cannot do certain things

And sometimes the explanation is simply that “I thought about it and this is the best decision. Period.”

 

[rlg94086]

But I still don’t get it… he’s not saying why it’s “not needed”. He’s not explaining his decision at all!

As I quoted before, the explanation is required if deviating from the norm. I don’t think that returning to a norm requires one, though it certainly would be nice.

…If in some diocese, on the basis of Canon 230 #2, the Bishop permits that, for particular reasons, women may also serve at the altar, this decision must be clearly explained to the faithful, in the light of the above-mentioned norm…

Re the growing-moving ahead…I add to what I said before-- If a girl sees an example of a another girl up there, that will be encouraging to her to go into a religious vocation. If Hillary Clinton became president, that would be encouraging to girls all over the US to be interested in politics.
Encouraging young people to follow their passion is a good thing, I’m sure you agree. We haven’t encouraged them enough in this area…so this is one way to do so.
Therefore, growing and moving ahead and improving.

It’s one way. I don’t believe it is necessarily the best way. Exposure to women religious and their communities would be better. Before society “moved ahead” there were more women religious. Those women religious were never altar servers. What do you think attracted them to their vocations?

 

[kslat]

When someone makes a decision like that that will affect young girls’ lives…maybe affect the intimacy they feel for their religion and their faith and their future in it…one hopes he would, indeed, have the compassion to explain to these young girls why they cannot be altar girls.
If I was a young girl at that church and wanted to help at the altar and looked forward to it longingly from my pew every Sunday…and then he suddenly said I could not, I’d feel it was a slap in the face.
But a kindly explanation from him would ease that, would help me to understand.
As good parents, we always try to explain to our children why they can or cannot do certain things.
I hope he sees fit be a “good father” and explain his reasoning, so that the girls can understand his decision-making and feel good about it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html

listen to fr R on** women and the natural order**. It is really worth it. scroll down until you find it.

 

[Brendan]

Yes, I have attended Mass there and have friends who attend mass there regularly. I sure hope he has given the girls there a thorough explanation, that would be great.

But also, if he’s going to give a public statement, why not include that in his statement as well?

He did give the reason in his public statement, it’s to encourage more vocations to the priesthood.

That alone is a great reason.

 

[Brendan]

If I was a young girl at that church and wanted to help at the altar and looked forward to it longingly from my pew every Sunday…and then he suddenly said I could not, I’d feel it was a slap in the face.
But a kindly explanation from him would ease that, would help me to understand.
As good parents, we always try to explain to our children why they can or cannot do certain things.
I hope he sees fit be a “good father” and explain his reasoning, so that the girls can understand his decision-making and feel good about it.

If a girl is expecting something she has no right to, what ‘feel good’ explaination is really required if she doesn’t get it.

If one of my daughters looked longingly at Bill Gate’s fortune and he didn’t give her a million dollars, should I write to him for an kindly explaination??

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Poor taste? You are just being overly sensitive. The He-Man Woman Hater Club is from The Little Rascals. I thought I would throw in a little levity in a thread where posters are accusing men, including priests and bishops, of being afraid of females and/or trying to exclude them from having any roles in the Church. Faced with such nonsense, a little humor was warranted.

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

If a girl is expecting something she has no right to, what ‘feel good’ explaination is really required if she doesn’t get it.

??

So, when a girl has seen girls serving there before and then the rule changes…your answer to her would be “suck it up buttercup?” You’ll do wonderfully in ministry…

 

[rlg94086]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

 

[JER7177]

I have not been able to read all the responses but I do wish to make a comment! Apart from this being an attempt or move to create more vocations, no one has mentioned the more important issue regarding altar girls: “Where is the past 5000 year (or so) Judeo-Catholic liturgical tradition have women served at the altar during a liturgical function?” I know that in the early Church and Middle Ages, occasionally an abbess would do some of the response delegated to a deacon in ones absence. But that is a rare fluke, but never have women served in the place of men for regular (or any for that matter) liturgical services until 2 years ago. To me, the practice of using women to serve at the altar reaks of modernist innovation and lacks credibility in regards to legitimate organic developement. In my study of the issue, I have come to the conclusion, that female altar servers was a concession made by Pope John Paul II and the Curia after they reaffirmed women could notbe ordained to the ministerial priesthood. What their justification was for this concession I have yet to discover.

The rational behind the use of female altar servers is akin to the contraceptive mentality. I do believe Pope John Paul II stated in Love & Responsibility (or Theology of the Body) that we speak language with our bodies. When a contracepting couple embrace in sexual intimacy they are saying on the one hand, " I want to share myself with you completely in love for the creation of new life", but on the other, “I don’t want to create new life with you in love because I am contracepting.” To put females in the function of serving the altar, the Church is saying, “We want you to serve in this function which is a open door to foster a potential vocation to the ordained priesthood”, but on the other due to the metaphysical reality, “you cannot fulfill the potential telos (end) which this function potentially leads many to desire - ordination.” Maybe I am wrong, but that’s how I see it.

By the way - the 11:00AM High Mass at Sts. Simon Jude Cathedral in Phoenix, AZ is the best thing you will find in the Diocese of Phoenix! All the variable and ordinary parts chanted in Latin by a 5 member schola (Introit, Collect, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Pater Noster, etc.). Incence and all! Fr. John is continuing the work of Fr. Rob Clements now stationed at ASU Newman Center. Pary for them all!

 

[StAnastasia]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

:clapping:

 

[JER7177]

Too much whinning! “Girls lives will be affected by this!!!” :crying: Has anyone read the letter of Jorge A. Card. Medina Estévez (Congregation for Divine Worship Letter on Altar Servers July 27, 2001)? He clearly states that NO LAYPERSON (male or female) has any RIGHT to serve at the Holy Alatar. It is at the prudent discretion of the bishop and pastor of a parish to determine whether or not girls cans serve! If they deem it not prudent to let girls serve - that’s that! Nobody has been denied anything.

Secondly, if girls are truly devestated by this change, they have been set-up for a big fall by not only bad liturgical practice, but by mom and dad. We go to Holy Mass not because “I get to serve at the altar” but to worship Almighty God according to the four ends of Mass and assist the priest in offering, BY OUR PRAYER, the Sacrifice of His Son on Calvary for the redemption of mankind. That is what our “function” and spirituality at Mass should be. The American Church has been infected by the idea that frenetic activity denotes “more participation.” He who does more, gets closer to the altar, gets to wear a cassock is more important. If only people were concerned about praying instead of doing so much at Mass, I think we would see a greater yeild of holiness amongst the laity.

Thirdly, have there not been scores of truly great female saints that attained to everlasting renowned who have never served at the altar? The fact is, no female saint in the past ever acted as a altar server or built a false spirituality around such “Tom Foolery.” When are we going to stop politicizing every aspect of Church life. This is not a democracy! Hell, I would like to see less lay people apart from lectors and a few alatr boys never go near the altar. People who fight this lame battle over the right for girls to serve are the same idiots that make the same battle for extra-ordinary distributors of Holy Communion. A truly un-Christian practice the Church needs to get rid of along with alatr girls.

 

[Tsuwano]

If a girl is expecting something she has no right to, what ‘feel good’ explaination is really required if she doesn’t get it.

If one of my daughters looked longingly at Bill Gate’s fortune and he didn’t give her a million dollars, should I write to him for an kindly explaination??

No boy or girl has a right to serve at the altar. It is a privilige. Still, even if a bishop is not required to give a reason for his decisions to the people he ministers to, a good bishop would want to promote understanding of his decision as much as possible. It is not good policy, either as a parent or as the shepherd of the Lord’s people, to give “Because I said so” as a reason for a decision. No, if your daughter wanted a million of Mr. Gate’s dollars, he is not obligated to explain why she can’t have it. But if Mr. Gates decided not to give a million dollars to his only daughter when all the other children have received a million, I would expect some sort of explanation, even if he is under no obligation to give one. The shepherd of your diocese, the Bishop, is closer to his people than Mr. Gates is to your daughter and he has more responsibility for their spiritual welfare. Realizing this, a good bishop would feel obligated to give some kind of explanation, even if he does not change his ruling.

 

[Elizium23]

Do you attend Mass at the Phoenix cathedral? All we have here is the public statement. If there are girls serving, I am willing to bet they have been given a thorough explanation. The fact that the Bishop did not explain his decision to your personal satisfaction is irrelevant.

And sometimes the explanation is simply that “I thought about it and this is the best decision. Period.”

Reading the original article, it is very clear that this was not the decision of the bishop. It was the rector’s decision and the bishop did not intercede on either side.

 

[Brendan]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

Sheesh, did you ever watch Little Rascals…