Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Brendan]

So, when a girl has seen girls serving there before and then the rule changes…your answer to her would be “suck it up buttercup?” You’ll do wonderfully in ministry…

Who ever said “Suck it up buttercup”

Certainly not the Rector.

He already explained that this was to encourage more priestly vocations.

And what I would explain to the girls, if I was a deacon, was that we as Catholics are required to give full obedience to those in authority. That means Deacons and that means little girls.

I think that is a lesson that too many parents and religious ed instructors fail to pass on, and it can set the kids up for disappointment.

Do you think I would be expected to LIKE every instruction I would recieve as a Deacon from the bishop or the pastor of whatever parish I would be assigned to serve in? Should I be like a little girl and demand an explaination? Or should I just go and do what I am instructed to do. I would say “Yes, Bishop” and do what I am told.

Why should children not learn that too?

This is what the Church requires of the faithful.

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

• Pastor Aeternus, Vatican I

The Vatican has stated that girls may be excluded from altar service by the local bishop, the pastor or the celebrant of the Mass.

We are ALL obliged to give true obedience to this, everyone, bishops, priests, deacons, and yes little girls.

 

[Brendan]

No boy or girl has a right to serve at the altar. It is a privilige. Still, even if a bishop is not required to give a reason for his decisions to the people he ministers to, a good bishop would want to promote understanding of his decision as much as possible. It is not good policy, either as a parent or as the shepherd of the Lord’s people, to give “Because I said so” as a reason for a decision. .

For possibly the gazillioth time. The Rector DID give a reason, it’s to encourage more vocations to the priesthood.

The article we are discussing is on page 1 of this thread, you can see that the Rector specifically said so in the article.

There are some in this thread that do not like the reason, but is it required that the faithful LIKE the reasons given by those in authority?

A reason was given, 'nuff said.

 

[Brendan]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

Annabelle,

Would you also feel it was below a Deacon’s dignity if he found humor in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon at those times when C&H don newpaper hats at sing the G.R.O.S.S. anthem? Or throws snowballs at Suzie Derkins?

Or should a Deacon simply shake his head at the indignity being placed up women by Calvin and Hobbes?

 

[Tigg]

LOL!
When someone makes a decision like that that will affect young girls’ lives.…**maybe affect the intimacy they feel for their religion and their faith and their future in it…**one hopes he would, indeed, have the compassion to explain to these young girls why they cannot be altar girls.

More than a little hyperbole perhaps? Has society deteriorated to the point that female esteem is so low so as to be shattered by something like this when it is the family unit that primarily fosters self-worth and self-love and a spirituality based upon the knowledge of the goodness of God. AND promotes character in order to withstand a little disappointment.

 

[Corki]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

Annabelle Marie, I am a woman and LOVED the Little Rascals reference. I don’t think it’s a male-female issue in terms of humor. I just think you are too young to have understood the humor in this particular reference.

I have two sons and I think I will make a point of getting out some Little Rascals videos. I don’t want them to grow up without that frame of cultural reference.

 

[Karenfern]

Well to answer your first question let me answer, I believe in purgatory, praying for the dead, Authority of the Pope (still reading over it, but the Catholic argument is pretty convincing), the Eucharist, reverence of Mary. There others, but it might take all day to discuss it.

Second thing I meant no disrespect for Catholic women, but I feel like it’s disheartening for women all over the world to confine them to only one role. Not every girl has the spiritual gifts to become a nun, not everyone has the spiritual gifts to become an altar server, but to restrict them because of gender is ludicrous.

Thirdly, the reason I bring up these women in the bible because I wanted to bring up the fact that women (along with men) had a huge impact on the Church, in early church history they could have been deacons, but not anymore; however now they shouldn’t even be altar servers?

Lastly, when did I ever even hint towards the fact that Jesus should have been anything other than a man? The Jewish people at that time wouldn’t have listened to a woman, it it was prophecy that Christ would be a man. I’m not as Liberal as you might think ./QUO

Well said.

 

[Corki]

A little humor yes…but that was not humor. You might find it humerous as a male but I find it insulting and quite frankly just throwing fuel on the fire. I would expect someone who wants to be a deacon a little more sensitive then that. If I had a son there is no way I would encourage them to serve with someone with poor judgement like this.

Annabelle Marie, I am a woman and LOVED the Little Rascals reference. I don’t think it’s a male-female issue in terms of humor. I just think you are too young to have understood the humor in this particular reference.

I have two sons and I think I will make a point of getting out some Little Rascals videos. I don’t want them to grow up without that frame of cultural reference.

Deacons need to have a sense of humor, in my opinion.

 

[PaulinVA]

Would you also feel it was below a Deacon’s dignity if he found humor in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon at those times when C&H don newpaper hats at sing the G.R.O.S.S. anthem?

This is the problem described in one sentence.

These things are indeed funny in the correct venue. However, in the context of a discussion of girls being excluded from something they formerly were allowed to do, jokes about hating women from the men that are accused of being insensitive to women is just plain inept and throws gasoline on the fire.

Brenden, you are correct in many of the things you have said, but you haven’t been able to covert anyone due to your inability to listen and respond accordingly.

The following things are true:

No lay person has the right to serve at the altar
Boys and girls both have been altar servers at Sts Simon and Jude
The privilege of alter serving has been revoked for girls
People think that there is a link between serving and the priesthood
The pastor thinks that altar serving by girls* dilutes* the altar server role
The pastor says that boys stay away from altar serving due to the presence of girls
No boy was ever turned away from serving because there were too many girls

BUT, the explanation, in love and compassion, to the supporters of altar girls is missing. Missing. It’s just “girls have no right. There’s no need for further explanation”. There doesn’t seem to be any understanding, any compassion, any openness. There’s just a wall.

By the way - listen to the interview with the pastor of Sts Simon and Jude. It’s on the parish web site at simonjude.net

 

[Corki]

This is the problem described in one sentence.

These things are indeed funny in the correct venue. However, in the context of a discussion of girls being excluded from something they formerly were allowed to do, jokes about hating women from the men that are accused of being insensitive to women is just plain inept and throws gasoline on the fire.

PaulinVA, Please go rent some Little Rascals. And please, please, please read this whole thread.

The cartoon was not presented in the context of why anyone should exclude girls. It was presented in response to another poster claiming that those of us who want to see more parishes return to all-boy servers are of that opinion because we are afraid of women. It was **the perfect response **to the “women are victims” rationale that had been introduced into this discussion.

 

[PaulinVA]

PaulinVA, Please go rent some Little Rascals. And please, please, please read this whole thread.

The cartoon was not presented in the context of why anyone should exclud girls. It was presented in response to another poster claiming that those of us who want to see more parishes return to all-boy servers are of that opinion because we are afraid of women. It was **the perfect response **to the “women are victims” rationale that had been introduced into this discussion.

Corki, thanks. I’ve been participating in this thread since my post #12.

I disagree with your assessment of the meaning of post #389. I don’t know how it was intended. I know how I took it.

 

[rlg94086]

Annabelle,

Would you also feel it was below a Deacon’s dignity if he found humor in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon at those times when C&H don newpaper hats at sing the G.R.O.S.S. anthem? Or throws snowballs at Suzie Derkins?

Or should a Deacon simply shake his head at the indignity being placed up women by Calvin and Hobbes?

I guess I should end my discernment.

 

[Brendan]

No lay person has the right to serve at the altar
Boys and girls both have been altar servers at Sts Simon and Jude
The privilege of alter serving has been revoked for girls
People think that there is a link between serving and the priesthood
The pastor thinks that altar serving by girls dilutes** the altar server role
The pastor says that boys stay away from altar serving due to the presence of girls
No boy was ever turned away from serving because there were too many girls

Could you point out in the article where the pastor of SS Simon and Jude stated that?

Here is another article on the subject that I found, but I still do not see where the Rector said what you attribute to him.

catholicsun.org/2011/august/23/cathedral-altar-servers.html

People think that there is a link between serving and the priesthood

More importantly, Rome thinks there is a link.

 

[PaulinVA]

Could you point out in the article where the pastor of SS Simon and Jude stated that?

thebishopshour.org/podcasts/August-29-2011.mp3

It’s an interview for a Catholic radio show. He’s really a nice guy. The vocations director is interviewed as well. The interviewer does ask some difficult questions. Overall a good thing to listen to.

 

[Corki]

But *why *would not allowing girls to be altar girls encourage more boys to the priesthood? Is there a limit of the number of altar girls/boys allowed in each church and an overwhelming number of girls are taking up the space that the boys want and cannot have?
Is having girls there somehow discouraging the boys emotionally/mentally?

After 30+ pages of posts, you haven’t seen any “why” that satisfies you.

This isn’t about the girls. No one did anything to the girls. The girls didn’t do anything to the boys.

It’s about creating (actually returning to) an environment where boys and young men might find more encouragement regarding priestly vocations. And that’s a very good thing.

 

[mlund]

Wow.
You are comparing the desire to serve God in a church by a young girl who wants to grow closer in her faith to…greedily asking a stranger/ka-zillionaire for his money?

You are comparing Bill Gates to God or a priest in this analogy and his money to faith?
That’s an odd and I think, off-kilter, comparison.

Not really. They both root back to a serious problem: feeling entitled to something that’s not yours. Children must be disabused of such notions, not enabled. Otherwise it breeds an absolutely abnoxious sense of entitlement and an utter lack of vital humility.

It just leads to resentment-based thinking that in turn leads to terrible spiritual, political, and personal decision-making all too common in this day and age.

• Marty Lund

 

[Corki]

Not really. They both root back to a serious problem: feeling entitled to something that’s not yours. Children must be disabused of such notions, not enabled. Otherwise it breeds an absolutely abnoxious sense of entitlement and an utter lack of vital humility.

It just leads to resentment-based thinking that in turn leads to terrible spiritual, political, and personal decision-making all too common in this day and age.

• Marty Lund

Good point. To which I might add we have another serious problem - asserting that those in authority owe us explanations for everything they do. Where did this come from?

 

[PaulinVA]

Good point. To which I might add we have another serious problem - asserting that those in authority owe us explanations for everything they do. Where did this come from?

You are absolutely right! The pastor does not owe anyone an explanation. However, if you want your flock, and other kibitzers on the internet, to **understand **your decision and to ascent to it, well, then, you might want to try to **convert **people to your position by evangelizing them on the need for priestly vocations and explain your thought process about why girls hinder the vocations benefit of altar serving.

A little listening goes a long way in creating community.

 

[rlg94086]

After 30+ pages of posts, you haven’t seen any “why” that satisfies you.

This isn’t about the girls. No one did anything to the girls. The girls didn’t do anything to the boys.

It’s about creating (actually returning to) an environment where boys and young men might find more encouragement regarding priestly vocations. And that’s a very good thing.

That’s correct. I don’t have scientific, irrefutable proof, but in the 5-12 year old range, boys generally want to engage in activities with other boys and may even consider girls “icky.” Now, we can fight that and say, “well, they shouldn’t,” “they’re just being dumb,” “too bad for them.” Or, we can go with it, due to the desire for priestly vocations.

Obviously, there are a couple of assumptions involved. I believe the percentage and personal testimonies of priests who were altar servers is sufficient to accept the assumption that altar serving increases vocations. The assumptions that a large percentage of boys find girls “icky?” Well, I’m okay with basing that on experience (Little Rascals and Calvin and Hobbes use that shared sociteal experience for humor, which approximately 99.853% appreciate. BTW…I wasn’t one of those boys, I was girl crazy and had a “girlfriend” first grade onward.

Regarding the effect on the girls. I don’t disagree that altar service can be edifying for girls, but I don’t think it’s the end-all-be-all experience that must be made available. There are other ways to get close to the Lord - choir/Schola, help the sacristan, adoration, charitable works - maybe with women religious to expose them to vocations. I think focusing on growing other opportunities for girls is a more worthwhile endeavor than insisting that priests/bishops capitulate to the desire of some of the laity.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle,

Would you also feel it was below a Deacon’s dignity if he found humor in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon at those times when C&H don newpaper hats at sing the G.R.O.S.S. anthem? Or throws snowballs at Suzie Derkins?

Or should a Deacon simply shake his head at the indignity being placed up women by Calvin and Hobbes?

Like Pauline said, there is a time and a place for everything. This was so not the place for it. If you had a couple that was divorcing in your office, would you make a joke about divorce or about women being too sensitive? Would you refer to the man-hater club or whatever it was and then tell the woman to “lighten up”? There has been some tense conversations here with women feeling unwanted by the Church…especially with comments of some to totally keep women out of the sanctuary all together and you throw in a joke like that? Yea…WRONG TIME and WRONG PLACE.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You are absolutely right! The pastor does not owe anyone an explanation. However, if you want your flock, and other kibitzers on the internet, to **understand **your decision and to ascent to it, well, then, you might want to try to **convert **people to your position by evangelizing them on the need for priestly vocations and explain your thought process about why girls hinder the vocations benefit of altar serving.

A little listening goes a long way in creating community.

AMEN! And right now to many young people, the priest/Bishops are the Church. Do we honestly want girls growning up with a sort of undefined ill will or not being cared about coming from the Church? Where do you think the next crop of priests will come from? Not as many Catholic women = not as many priests…

A parent doesn’t have to “explain” anything either…but isn’t the good thing to do as a parent or as a father is to have a kindly attitude while explaining some things.

Personally I don’t see why you can’t encourage boys to altar service while still allowing girls. If a boy is serious about a vocation, then they also need to learn that girls are not “icky”. They are expected to learn to assist the priest at Mass but they can’t learn that girls are also the body of Christ?