Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[StAnastasia]

In fact, for all we know, there might be many boys who would be encouraged to be altar boys if girls are up there…they may be encouraged by the open arms of the church to include the girls…they may feel it provides a good sense of friendship and female camaraderie for them.

DaddyGirl, interesting point. A number of the boys in our school and parish with whom I’ve talked are leery of the priesthood because (naturally) at this point in their lives, celibacy appears sexually impotent to them. These are normal, healthy boys (including my sons), with normal, healthy, pubescent excitement about girls. They are not at this stage in the slightest bit interested in a career that would permanently shelve the sexual interest just being awakened in them by their hormonal drives.

Altar serving at this time (for both boys and girls) gives them an investment in their Church and in their parish community. We have both adult and child servers, both female and male. I’ve just come from singing at the Mass of the Holy Spirit, the first of the academic year. The priest was served by one girl and one boy, and the gospel was read by one boy and one girl. The children were extraordinarily reverent and attentive during the liturgy. They are thrilled to be become integral parts of a vibrant Church community!

StAnastasia

 

[rlg94086]

thebishopshour.org/podcasts/August-29-2011.mp3

It’s an interview for a Catholic radio show. He’s really a nice guy. The vocations director is interviewed as well. The interviewer does ask some difficult questions. Overall a good thing to listen to.

Paul,

Thank you for linking that! For those who haven’t listened to it, you can get the explanation you were looking for. I am glad I haven’t contradicted anything they said. In fact, I was surprised that their answer to how girls can be more engaged matched up with my recent post - adoration, sacristan and exposure to women religious:

Regarding the effect on the girls. I don’t disagree that altar service can be edifying for girls, but I don’t think it’s the end-all-be-all experience that must be made available. There are other ways to get close to the Lord - choir/Schola, help the sacristan, adoration, charitable works - maybe with women religious to expose them to vocations. I think focusing on growing other opportunities for girls is a more worthwhile endeavor than insisting that priests/bishops capitulate to the desire of some of the laity.

I am praying that the people of the diocese embrace this approach and that Grace flows abundantly.

 

[rlg94086]

!!! But no one…not the Bishop or priest (or whoever it is who made this new decision) or the potential altar boys in question have so far said, that we in the public are told, that the environment with the girls there has been discouraging at all!
That’s what I’m sayin’!
In fact, for all we know, there might be many boys who would be encouraged to be altar boys if girls are up there…they may be encouraged by the open arms of the church to include the girls…they may feel it provides a good sense of friendship and female camaraderie for them…
The point is, no one is saying why having girls there is allegedly discouraging…so until someone does, we are left with wondering wassup and with someone making a decision that makes no sense.
If he said one small sentence, like *“I talked to some boys and they feel uncomfortable standing near the girls…” *–then it is explained!
That’s all it takes, one little sentence, and then everybody understands the thought process and goes home happy–even the girls who are told they cannot serve up at the altar.

Well, I am sad to say that the transition experience at our parish was worse. I talked to a friend whose daughter was an altar server before the pastor changed to boys-only, and the two girls were informed 10 minutes before a Mass they were preparing to serve. One girl laughed at first…then cried. Terrible. As you can imagine, the priest had to explain the change thoroughly to the parish after that, because there were some understandably upset folks.

My friend told me they are fine with boys-only altar service, and the girls recovered. One of them is a cloistered nun (Poor Claires, I think) and the other is a high school senior who is very active in the parish and with adoration.

 

[Corki]

That sounds beautiful! Simply beautiful!!

Thank you, too, for sharing this. A wonderful anecdote about how both can serve side by side and it encourages both the boys’ and girls’ in positive spiritual, religious, and community ways…yet does not hinder–in fact helps–to encourage the boys to serve at the altar.
Bravo for your church!

except for the fact that having non-ordained, let alone children read the Gospel is strictly forbidden.

The purpose of serving at the altar is not to provide spiritual enrichment for the servers. It is to assist the priest at Mass.

 

[ishii]

A number of the boys in our school and parish with whom I’ve talked are leery of the priesthood because (naturally) at this point in their lives, celibacy appears sexually impotent to them. These are normal, healthy boys (including my sons), with normal, healthy, pubescent excitement about girls. They are not at this stage in the slightest bit interested in a career that would permanently shelve the sexual interest just being awakened in them by their hormonal drives.

I think boys being leery of the priesthood because of celibacy reflects our over-sexualized pop culture more than anything else. Furthermore, what this has to do with encouraging boys to be altar boys is beyond me.

The priest was served by one girl and one boy, and the gospel was read by one boy and one girl.

The gospel read by a boy and a girl? I thought that the gospel was to be read by either a priest or a deacon.

Ishii

 

[Inquiringperson]

The gospel read by a boy and a girl? I thought that the gospel was to be read by either a priest or a deacon.

Ishii

The Gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon, but preferably a deacon. To do otherwise would be a serious and blatant abuse.

 

[louis91766]

The Gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon, but preferably a deacon. To do otherwise would be a serious and blatant abuse.

There seems to be a lot of “abuses” these days.

 

[tafan]

Whatever.

As long as this is done for the right reasons it’s okay. However, I find it somewhat scary that the young men we want to encourage to be priests are being taught from a young age that women are yucky and actually get in the way of mens fulfillment. Or, that men should be afraid of women and can only be successful if they are removed.

It is not right and not healthy for a parish to have priests believing this.

A couple of points:
As to the idea that boys will stay away once it becomes predominantly girls. Its a fact of life with kids. Its always been that way, always will. If an activity becomes dominated by girls, boys will stay away. Recognizing this basic behavior of kids in vocational development is not encouraging or teaching anything scary.

To the more general issue: The purpose of adolescents being allowed to be altar servers. has always been for only one reason, to give boys more direct exposure to the priesthood and it has been done as a vocational tool, always. Otherwise, it would always have been adults. Keeping this in mind, any time when a girl is on the altar serving, is being wasted as to its basic purpose.

Bravo to the rector’s decision.

 

[JEANNIEMAC]

I attended parochial school some years ago. At that time, boys and girls were separated on either side of the building. When a boy did something wrong, he was sent to sit in a girl’s classroom. Some of the girls tittered and giggled. Others, such as myself, wondered what was wrong with us, that it was a punishment to be sent to our classroom. This early treatment has resulted in resentment among women, being treated as less than men.
St. Paul’s thinking was that of the Middle East, where women were and still are, considered to be lesser human beings.

 

[PaulinVA]

A couple of points:
As to the idea that boys will stay away once it becomes predominantly girls. Its a fact of life with kids. Its always been that way, always will. If an activity becomes dominated by girls, boys will stay away. Recognizing this basic behavior of kids in vocational development is not encouraging or teaching anything scary.

I think that boys echo what they hear their parents saying (I can’t believe that they are allowing girls to be altar servers. What a crock"). It is also true that boys don’t want to be associated with traditionally girly things, but altar serving is traditionally a boy thing. If the girls become the majority, it’s not the girls fault.

To the more general issue: The purpose of adolescents being allowed to be altar servers. has always been for only one reason, to give boys more direct exposure to the priesthood and it has been done as a vocational tool, always. Otherwise, it would always have been adults.

Well, as I’ve said previously in this thread, and been chastised for it, I don’t agree with the conventional wisdom that altar serving informs a boy what being a priest is all about.

Keeping this in mind, any time when a girl is on the altar serving, is being wasted as to its basic purpose.
.

If you normally have two altar boys, and now you have two altar boys and a girl, what’s the problem?

 

[Inquiringperson]

There seems to be a lot of “abuses” these days.

There are. Some could be mere accidents, but others could be an attempt to actually change the liturgy.

 

[StAnastasia]

That sounds beautiful! Simply beautiful!!

Thank you, too, for sharing this. A wonderful anecdote about how both can serve side by side and it encourages both the boys’ and girls’ in positive spiritual, religious, and community ways…yet does not hinder–in fact helps–to encourage the boys to serve at the altar.
Bravo for your church!

Thank you, DaddyGirl! I love our parish community, which has strong involvement in the liturgy from women and men, boys and girls. Women serve on the liturgy committee, men help with cooking and cleaning the kitchen (I know that’s a reversal of traditional roles!) Boys want to serve at the altar with girls, and vice versa.

 

[StAnastasia]

I attended parochial school some years ago. At that time, boys and girls were separated on either side of the building. When a boy did something wrong, he was sent to sit in a girl’s classroom. Some of the girls tittered and giggled. Others, such as myself, wondered what was wrong with us, that it was a punishment to be sent to our classroom. This early treatment has resulted in resentment among women, being treated as less than men.
St. Paul’s thinking was that of the Middle East, where women were and still are, considered to be lesser human beings.

Catholicism is not quite as bad as Hinduism, in which if you are really bad you are reincarnated as a woman, or Islam, in which men thank Allah every morning that they were not born women.

 

[StAnastasia]

The Gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon, but preferably a deacon. To do otherwise would be a serious and blatant abuse.

It’s not an abuse in our parish. We have a parochial school, and each month a different class is in charge of planning, serving, and helping with the “family Mass.” Sunday it will be the fourth grade: the children help plan the liturgical music to fit the readings of the day; they do the readings and the prayers of the faithful, they bring up the offertory gits, etc.

 

[ishii]

It’s not an abuse in our parish.

The gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon. If that’s not happening then its an abuse, regardless of whether you think its not.

Ishii

 

[louis91766]

The gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon. If that’s not happening then its an abuse, regardless of whether you think its not.

Ishii

How come there are so many abuses? Does this mean that Catholic priests don’t take the Church rules seriously?

 

[razredge]

I think this whole issue is farcical - and in today’s day & age too

Believing that having girls serving on the altar discourages boys from the priesthood is ludicrous - I mean if you’re going to suggest that, why not also mandate that all females come to church dressed in head coverings and ankle length skirts - i’m sure that’d make celibacy and the priesthood far more attractive to boys.

Oh and I can think of another good reason to stop girls from altarserving - they might give the boys coodies…

 

[Benay]

Every Good Friday, our local Catholic High School is in complete charge of the morning worship of the cross. (The afternoon service which corresponds to the old Tre Ore service is run by the senior altar servers composed of both men and women.) The services are identical. The Passion is read, in toto, by both boys and girls, just as men and women read the Gospel in the afternoon… So in effect, the Gospels are read by lay people, not Deacons or Priests. I realize this happens only once in our Liturgical year, but it does happen.

 

[StAnastasia]

The gospel has to be read by a priest or deacon. If that’s not happening then its an abuse, regardless of whether you think its not. Ishii

Ishii, then in our parish it’s a joyful and edifying abuse. The children in the family Masses organized by different classes approach the matter of reading the scriptures and presenting the Gospel with profound reverence. They graduate with an understanding of the liturgy through long and deep participation. After all,“liturgy” means “work of the people”; liturgy is not something just done for them while they sit by passively as pious spectators.

 

[StAnastasia]

I think this whole issue is farcical - and in today’s day & age too

Believing that having girls serving on the altar discourages boys from the priesthood is ludicrous - I mean if you’re going to suggest that, why not also mandate that all females come to church dressed in head coverings and ankle length skirts - i’m sure that’d make celibacy and the priesthood far more attractive to boys.

Oh and I can think of another good reason to stop girls from altarserving - they might give the boys coodies…

razredge, despite decades of attempts by researchers to find a cure for cooties – or at least to slow down transmission of this horrible disease – millions of new cases of cooties are reported in school-age children each year. The Church does what she can to lessen this impact of this plague. My family once was attending Mass in Switzerland (1978), where the men were on one side of hte Church and the women on the other. However, the two altar servers were girls. According to the CDC, transmission of liturgical cooties in Switzerland stood at a very low rate in the 1970s.