Photographic contradiction of Miracle of the Sun?

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21Dec17

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Hi, I’m considering converting to Christianity (more specifically Catholicism).

As many of you who are familiar with the claims of the miracle at Fatima will know, one of the claims about the miracle was that people could look at the sun with ease and that it did not hurt the eyes.

However, people in the photographs seem to contradict this.

Little help?
 
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Photographs on the day were taken over a length of time, before, during and after the miracle. Also, the picture you posted is only partial. For a better set of pictures you can check this thread:
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Fátima - it's proofs Apologetics
Taken from: “Fátima, it’s proofs and it’s problems” Lisabon 1953. Written by padre Sebastião Martins do Reis, professor at Coimbra University (est.1290, 16º oldest university in the world). Page 180, and I quote: "We shall enumerate of various facts verified in the presence of the children, related to them, - facts proven by eye witnesses, prescinding of what the seers said: 1- Lightnings, that preceded the apparitions. Thunder, at the precise moment of the apparition, or at its term, with ap…
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Lets not assume whatever happened was simply a physical thing.
Most people do not know the newspaper cameraman (a Catholic) himself saw nothing that day while his co reporter (not a Catholic) did.
 
adgloriam said:
the picture you posted is only partial
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Some people are looking with relative ease and some are not, suggesting that some were under suggestion.
 
I wouldn’t let a personal revelation be the governing decider for your conversion. As we believe, the apostolic age for public, divine revelation died with the last apostle. Since then, there have been numerous personal revelations, many of which have been approved as an authentic apparition by the church. But, as the faithful catholic, we are under in no uncertain way, under any obligation to hold any private revelation, approved or not approved, with certainty as public revelation.

In other words, if an approved, private revelation brings you closer to God, then all good. If you don’t want to use the private revelation to get closer to God, then don’t.
 
KatyCatholic

This is just one of the many things I’m looking at.

But this event is famous for it being said that it is so that “all may believe”.
 
Think about this for a moment:
  1. I don’t know anyone who can look at the sun, even with using their hand as a visor (like in those pics).
  2. no one said it wasn’t bright. But the fact that they could look at it (even if they used their hand as a visor) is amazing.
😎
 
It was so that all who saw may believe.

You have to remember what was happening at the time… Portugal was very close to becoming fascist.

This event, stopped fascism from taking over Portugal.
 
Does it really matter? If your faith is based only on a dramatic event, and you have missed seeing the miracles of God in nature and life, you might have missed the message. God speaks most often in whispers.
 
adgloriam said:
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phil19034:
This event, stopped fascism from taking over Portugal.
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You are not Portuguese and don’t know what you are talking about.
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Please enlighten me then. It was my understanding that the officials who questioned the children were fascist & atheists. Was I mistaken?

Thank you and God Bless
 
I actually believe in Fatima 100%, but I also agree 100% with (name removed by moderator).

A Catholic is not required to believe in private revelations like Fatima, and practicing Catholics have all sorts of different views on it. And that’s fine.

You should be instead focusing on the important Church teachings which all practicing Catholics are required to believe in order to truly call themselves “Catholic” - basically the teachings summarized in the Creed, and the other material presented in the Catechism. Not on Fatima.
 
phil19034 said:
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adgloriam:
40.png
phil19034:
This event, stopped fascism from taking over Portugal.
Click to expand...
You are not Portuguese and don’t know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Please enlighten me then. It was my understanding that the officials who questioned the children were fascist & atheists. Was I mistaken?

Thank you and God Bless
Click to expand...
There were 2 factions at play:
A. Republicans
B. Conservatives

In 1908 the King is assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1910 the Republic is proclaimed. (Practically the first modern republic in Europe without a King.)
In 1911 the Republicans declare separation of church and state and expel all religious orders. Pope Pius X publishes the encyclical “Iamdudum” in response.
In 1917 during the apparitions the Republicans are still in power.
In late 1917, after the apparitions, there is a military coup by conservatives. Separation between church and state is abolished, and the Conservatives restore diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
In 1918 the Conservative president is, again, assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1926 a military coup puts the Conservatives in power again, until the 1933 elections that would develop into fascism until 1974.

HOW DOES ALL THIS LINK TO FÁTIMA? First, Our Lady herself said that a chapel should be built in her honor and that a procession should be held. Both of these were forbidden by the republicans at the time. So you can see the mother of God said there should be disobedience to the Republicans government ban on the catholic church. The Fascists in Portugal were mostly sympathetic and aligned with the church, and also managed to keep Portugal outside of WW2.
 
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adgloriam said:
40.png
phil19034:
40.png
adgloriam:
40.png
phil19034:
This event, stopped fascism from taking over Portugal.
Click to expand...
You are not Portuguese and don’t know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Please enlighten me then. It was my understanding that the officials who questioned the children were fascist & atheists. Was I mistaken?

Thank you and God Bless
Click to expand...
There were 2 factions at play:
A. Republicans
B. Conservatives

In 1908 the King is assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1910 the Republic is proclaimed. (Practically the first modern republic in Europe without a King.)
In 1911 the Republicans declare separation of church and state and expel all religious orders. Pope Pius X publishes the encyclical “Iamdudum” in response.
In 1917 during the apparitions the Republicans are still in power.
In late 1917, after the apparitions, there is a military coup by conservatives. Separation between church and state is abolished, and the Conservatives restore diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
In 1918 the Conservative president is, again, assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1926 a military coup puts the Conservatives in power again, until the 1933 elections that would develop into fascism until 1974.

HOW DOES ALL THIS LINK TO FÁTIMA? First, Our Lady herself said that a chapel should be built in her honor and that a procession should be held. Both of these were forbidden by the republicans at the time. So you can see the mother of God said there should be disobedience to the Republicans government ban on the catholic church. The Fascists in Portugal were mostly sympathetic and aligned with the church, and also managed to keep Portugal outside of WW2.
Click to expand...
Thanks. So were the republicans simply atheist/agnostic? Or were they a different form of fascism, socialist, etc? What was their political outlook besides republican? They always sounded like a “Nazi form of fascism” to me vs a “Mussolini form of fascism.”

Thoughts? 🤔
 
phil19034 said:
What was their political outlook besides republican?
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They were of this kind:

Clemente XII, In Eminenti, 28 de abril de 1738
Bento XIV, Providas, 18 de maio de 1751
Pio VII, Ecclesiam A Jesu Christo, 13 de setembro de 1821
Leão XII, Quo Gravioria Mala, 13 de março de 1825
Litteris Altero, 25 de março de 1830
Gregório XVI, Mirari Vos, 15 de agosto de 1832
Pio IX, Qui Pluribus, 09 de novembro de 1846
Quibus Quantisque Malis, 20 de abril de 1849
Quanta Cura, 08 de dezembro de 1864
Multiplices Inter, 25 de setembro de 1865
Apostolicae Sedis Moderatoni, 12 de Outubro de 1869
Etsi Multa, 21 de novembro de 1873
Leão XIII, Etsi Nos, 15 de fevereiro de 1882
Humanum Genus, 20 de abril de 1884
Officio Sanctissimo, 22 de dezembro de 1887
Dall’Alto Dell’Apostolico Seggio, 15 de outubro de 1890
Inimica Vis, 18 de dezembro de 1892
Custodi di Qualla Fede, 18 de dezembro de 1892
Praeclara, 20 de junho de 1894
Annum Ingressi, 18 mar 1902
 
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My preferences are not under discussion neither do they matter.
CCC 67 (…)but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
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Can I ask for reference to an authoritative document on this?
 
adgloriam said:
40.png
phil19034:
What was their political outlook besides republican?
Click to expand...
They were of this kind:

Clemente XII, In Eminenti, 28 de abril de 1738
Bento XIV, Providas, 18 de maio de 1751
Pio VII, Ecclesiam A Jesu Christo, 13 de setembro de 1821
Leão XII, Quo Gravioria Mala, 13 de março de 1825
Litteris Altero, 25 de março de 1830
Gregório XVI, Mirari Vos, 15 de agosto de 1832
Pio IX, Qui Pluribus, 09 de novembro de 1846
Quibus Quantisque Malis, 20 de abril de 1849
Quanta Cura, 08 de dezembro de 1864
Multiplices Inter, 25 de setembro de 1865
Apostolicae Sedis Moderatoni, 12 de Outubro de 1869
Etsi Multa, 21 de novembro de 1873
Leão XIII, Etsi Nos, 15 de fevereiro de 1882
Humanum Genus, 20 de abril de 1884
Officio Sanctissimo, 22 de dezembro de 1887
Dall’Alto Dell’Apostolico Seggio, 15 de outubro de 1890
Inimica Vis, 18 de dezembro de 1892
Custodi di Qualla Fede, 18 de dezembro de 1892
Praeclara, 20 de junho de 1894
Annum Ingressi, 18 mar 1902
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ahhhh… Thank you.
 
21Dec17 said:
Some people are looking with relative ease and some are not
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I’m Portuguese, if you ever visit this country you’ll find that between May and September covering your eyes is a natural daily reaction. Even if not necessary you simply tend do it out of habit, it’s one of those gestures that unconsciously becomes mechanized. Most folks aren’t covering their eyes in the photo, a few simply did it out of reflex. As a poet said:“In the highest sun even the sounds sparkle.”

This picture is short before or during the start of the miracle. In one of the next pictures you can see some of the people in this picture kneeling and praying.
 
adgloriam said:
I’m Portuguese, if you ever visit this country you’ll find that between May and September covering your eyes is a natural daily reaction. Even if not necessary you simply tend do it out of habit, it’s one of those gestures that unconsciously becomes mechanized. Most folks aren’t covering their eyes in the photo, a few simply did it out of reflex. As a poet said:“In the highest sun even the sounds sparkle.”
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I’ve been to Spain and Portugal maybe 15 times. I’ve seen people do that.

The bottom line is that we don’t know why some people are covering their eyes and some aren’t. We don’t really know what the sun did or didn’t do that day. Even those who were there disagree.

Deacon Jeff is right. We don’t belittle or minimize private revelations, but they do not belong to the deposit of faith; therefore, we are under no obligation to believe them. And, no one should convert to Catholicism based on someone else’s private revelation. They need to study our deposit of faith.
 
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